[Veggie]

*Thread Resurrection*

Inspired by Jennifer Lawrence's Oscar win (<3). I looked up "Silver Linings Playbook" (what she won for) and it was one of those "uh..." moments. Hi life (I mean not all of it, but the underlying theme). I didn't know what the movie was about until now.

I've attracted damaged (in some ways) ESTJ types because I've been a damaged (in some ways) INFJ. I'm actually interested, deep down, in what they have to say about bucking up, however harsh, and they're likely actually interested, deep down, in what I have to say about just letting yourself feel and express things and in going with the flow of this mess that is life. You will never fully prepare or plan for it. I don't feel like I've had any other choice though but to try to lately, really grabbing it by the horns, and likely, for them vice versa, in going with the flow. Are we damaged, or have we been given a blessing in disguise? The blatant honesty on both sides though... It's real, and real is hot. It requires attention.

edit: apologies this is kind of me just rambling semi-coherently.

M'dear @Veggie I couldn't decide whether I was even qualified to talk on the matter, seeing as I know very few ESTJs—most of whom scare the bejeezus out of me—however, as I sat there in my cozy, wicker-bottomed chair last night in the throes of reading about peptic ulcer disease, hepatic encephalopathy, and other maladies of this fleshy shell we call a human body, I started jotting down some ideas on a notecard. It might get out of hand (and I'm not sure how relevant this is, lol), but I'll try to keep it short. Or not. Eh, let's face it, you handed me—one of PerC's resident novel writers—the keys to the insane asylum so all I will say before starting is: Muahahahaha...

Perfect Exactly what I was hoping for I loved everything you posted. As I told you before, I wrote notes for a response, but they've all sort of faded into other points now. (I'll prob come back again later though with the others - EDIT, yes, see below). I think the main point that came to mind that I'm still dwelling on is how sad this is:

Nowadays she (the "Little Princess") would be schizophrenic and in need of meds. In the past she was a creative story teller and had a vast inner world. This is all we have control over. I can't help but think about how those who don't have much other than their inner world to rely on are often times the most judgmental to it. It's what would bring them salvation - building and nurturing a creative, individual world, one which nobody can take from you. I get that there is some jealousy and resentment towards those who are given (or make) the time to envision and explore one though if intolerance towards such "nonsense" is programmed at a root level. ("I don't want a nation of thinkers, I want a nation of workers" - John Rockefeller)

Bootcamp (so sad):

I actually liked this movie, Snow White and the Huntsman, I thought that the symbolism was great:

At 4:02 they enter the "sanctuary" after being trapped in the dark forest. That was my favorite part. We always have that sanctuary available to us if we let ourselves be led there.

Below - synchronicity depiction?

I think the concept of mindfulness is often simplified to "living in the moment." I feel it runs a bit deeper than Thicht Naht Hanh's adage of wash-the-dishes-to-wash-the-dishes, however. Mindfulness, I think, is being aware not only of the present, but the past and future; to what is seen and unseen; what is possible and impossible... Essentially, situational awareness. When I took my quizzes today, for instance, I tried to avoid tunnel vision and see things holistically. This meant coming to terms with what I knew and didn't know and being at peace with that. I see tests/quizzes not as hurdles to overcome, but opportunities... springboards to further my own development. I know I've had a tendency to "put up walls" and to compartmentalize myself, which is something I've been trying to break out of.

That article was awesome, thanks for it. I realized that Ne is trusting all of the different aspects of my persona to co-exist harmoniously, to sort of tag team each other to show up and display themselves as is appropriate and useful. To not identify too much with any one archetype. It's difficult when you've explored and are in tune with many. I get the warnings that actors are given when playing dangerous characters. It's really as simple as not compartmentalizing though. There is flow within that, and flow is the meat of the social playbook. Within flow there is confidence, happiness, strength - and that is what we are all attracted to in each other ultimately. I've been complicating things, this process has made me see that.

Guh, I feel like I'm not explaining this well, but I recommend the documentary Rivers and Tides on the artist Andy Goldsworthy. It's kind of a visual of what I'm trying to get at. I think it's on youtube for free.

I liked this. Build anyway despite inevitable destruction. I think that my tendency to see the eventual destruction has kept me from building as vigorously as I could in areas of my life. This is probably another reason for my attraction to the ESTJ mindset currently.

I imagine that any relationship or even group of people (a team) functions best like an orchestra... each piece is simultaneously independent, yet harmonized with the other

Yes! Let each color of the rainbow shine vibrantly, because together they will make a more beautiful rainbow

I think we need to respect one another in regards to privacy and allowing another person to open up on their terms. It's like in Like Water for Chocolate where the guy asks Tita why she doesn't talk, to which she replies: "Because I don't want to."

This is my final hurdle here. Learning to do this calmy and respectfully without the defensiveness soaked in insecurity. I'm on my way. I feel confident in my own values again, in the importance of the inner world, while still appreciating this new mentality I've been adopting.

I realize that in understanding Fi, I began to take a Fe approach in wanting to respect and honor it more in others - but I have to continue to do it for myself as well. Getting along with ESTJ types is going to be about tweaks in communication, which I'm getting better at, but ultimately it's just about being a more polished, responsible, confident and happy version of myself.

 

[hal0hal0]

Below - synchronicity depiction?

Whoa, for a second there I thought those birds were my state bird XD. Rebirth is an idea I've been refining. Lately, I've been finding myself undergoing spiritual rebirths with alarming regularity—every couple of weeks or so. Maybe "rebirth" is a bit inaccurate at this point, because they're really more like spiritual tweaks. It reminds me of what you said somewhere about balance not being a destination but something that needs upkeep. Revolution gives way to stability, and stability needs revolution in order to grow and adapt.

I've been fascinated by duality, dyads and personas for ages. What you said about the free spirit's Icarusian wings being torn off by what society deems as normal or acceptable reminds me that our world is probably still governed by a largely Either/Or mentality (i.e., You must live this way or that way, but not both). Either/Or forces us to choose one over the other, which implies value judgment. It's like in the Red Shoes where the ballerina is split between vocation and personal life. The ballet director forces a puritanical ideology on her—forcing her to choose her career or herself—which ultimately tears her apart:

I think our culture needs to adopt a more And mentality... to believe in the coexistence and harmony between two opposing forces. Yes, having your carrot cake and eating it too is possible, folks, provided you're willing to work for it. If Either/Or is conflict, war and opposition, then And is collaboration, construction, and negotiation. That's probably why I consider Krzysztof Kieslowski's work to be so very influential, spiritually, in my own life, because in exploring the highs, the lows, and dissonance, he seeks to embrace the full breadth of existence. His final 4 pictures before his death, in particular, offer not only the courage to face those darker parts of our conscience, but also to view it with humor, affection, sensitivity, and above all, hope.

The Three Colors movies in particular, which are titled after the three colors of the French flag: Blue (Liberty), White (Equality), and Red (Fraternity) evoke a sense of growth and spiritual reconnection with the world and with ourselves. In many ways, it follows my own progression of "freezing out" the world for so long (Blue), rebirth, reconnecting through open dialogue (the end of White), and spiritual affirmation and human connectedness (Red). Liberty, Equality and Fraternity, I think, are a wonderful framework for considering human growth and individuality in the face of our yearning for basic human connection and interconnectivity.

Regarding controlling types... My parents (ISTJ dad and XSFJ mom?) are both of that vein—very controlling (always "shoulding": You should do this. You should go outside. You shouldn't sit in front of the computer so long. You should eat this type of food. etc.). If I'm being perfectly honest with myself, my present career path is largely a result of their influence. They are both pretty stubborn (probably why they didn't get along), strong-headed people; both immigrants that had to "make it" on their own, more or less. I'm starting to come to terms with being subtly "coerced" via stuff like: Oh, are you sure you want to do that? Healthcare's a much safer career option.

I don't resent them, and they're doing it b/c they care, but I need to assert myself and do things on my own terms. Yes, without them I would've undoubtedly chosen a different, perhaps more interesting line of work, but in making peace with that, I've allowed myself to embrace both my scientific and artistic sides. I'm living with my mom and my sister's with my dad and we've both sort of had similar-ish struggles in the sense of asserting our individuality. TBH, it's kind of embarrassing and it's been a major hurdle overcoming the shame of still living at home.

I find that, even though I've been more "defiant" recently, I still try to approach it with a sense of humor and light-heartedness—simply to show them that me disagreeing isn't a personal attack, but me asserting my own ethos. I suppose... this is that open dialogue like in White (ironic b/c that scene with Julie Delpy in the prison is wordless... yet the human connection is totally there).

 

[Veggie]

Rebirth is an idea I've been refining. Lately, I've been finding myself undergoing spiritual rebirths with alarming regularity—every couple of weeks or so. Maybe "rebirth" is a bit inaccurate at this point, because they're really more like spiritual tweaks.

This place has a way of doing that to you

I think our culture needs to adopt a more And mentality... to believe in the coexistence and harmony between two opposing forces. Yes, having your carrot cake and eating it too is possible, folks, provided you're willing to work for it. If Either/Or is conflict, war and opposition, then And is collaboration, construction, and negotiation. That's probably why I consider Krzysztof Kieslowski's work to be so very influential, spiritually, in my own life, because in exploring the highs, the lows, and dissonance, he seeks to embrace the full breadth of existence. His final 4 pictures before his death, in particular, offer not only the courage to face those darker parts of our conscience, but also to view it with humor, affection, sensitivity, and above all, hope.

I totally agree, and I love how you said this. When we face the darker parts of ourselves, we can be more forgiving of it in others too.

An ESTJ told me recently that I was making excuses for my situation. My response of course was a vehement defense and a "How insensitive! I'm outta here!" when I realized it wasn't making a difference, but he was right. I've been placing too much blame on my ex for where I am now in my life (starting over in many ways). I've been finding myself feeling more sympathetic to him, and today I even started laughing, uncontrollably, feeling bad for the poor guy. It was a totally bizarre reaction. He did some pretty crappy things, but he obviously isn't all bad. I didn't take it all lying down as much as I've been conveying or remembering either. We drove each other nuts. It was an ugly power struggle. The Big Bad Wolf smoke cleared, and I found myself connecting to the memories of how it really was when things were lighter. They were dark plenty as well, but I let the darkness overshadow the more human dynamic.

I made my decisions to make some radical life changes before we even broke up. I remembered one conversation we had in particular. I was talking about how we've all been programmed to put a face to ideals and refuse to accept that the same ideal could have a different face. I went on about our government and the system and other cultures and their differences and he basically just interrupted me with "I really don't feel like indulging your fantasies about how your decision to lose your mind is somehow a positive thing." I went out the next day and bought a ton of tie-dye that I would wear to the most inappropriate places, like out to dinner with him, in defiance. I got mine in some too.

I made the decision to leave my career on a camping trip. I had the resources and support to make the change and to take some time off to recharge first, but I was terrified of perception. That was really it. There was nothing else holding me back. I was lying in a hammock looking up at the trees, with the sun shining through the leaves in that enchanting way it does, and I realized I had to just go for it. Life is short. It was like the prison warden was sleeping and the door was wide open, and I was afraid to leave because I was worried that the other prisoners wouldn't approve or like me for it. I realized that they didn't really like me for me anyway though. It was like I was a vanilla ice cream cone, content with the fact that others would project whatever flavor they wanted onto me. What if those projections were mostly bad though? Did I want to live my life as someone's shadow? For all I know I remind someone of a woman who fed her neighbor's cats to her pet snake or something. I had to take the opportunity and plan to pay it forward in the future, to come back with the keys if I could.

It's easier said than done to not worry about perception though. The projections and shadows get stronger when you're more vocal. It's easier to be quickly dismissed. Being written off as a lazy hippie by those who haven't accomplished in ten years career wise what you did in five, for example, is the kind of thing that will really get under your skin. We're repelling each other with this OR mentality into more aggressive places than necessary. I went from a vanilla ice cream cone to this for a while:

It's much more interesting than being vanilla, but I've had to remind myself to keep connecting to that feeling in the sunshine. That feeling is what makes the diversity truly worth it. I can't force anyone else to connect to it. I can spread some of that feeling around however. It does feel even better with a friend. They'll have to actually connect to the sunshine too though. The chances of that happening are greater when there's more of it

I've really liked these quotes lately:

Lighten up and live boldly.

Think lightly of yourself and deeply of the world.

I've allowed myself to embrace both my scientific and artistic sides.

Good for you Me too. I could easily get lax in my job, but I'm taking a very professional approach to it all. I have a series of goals I'd like to accomplish, and I plan to continually take myself to the next level in success. I'm on the right path now, and everything from here is progress.

Intelligence without ambition is a bird without wings - Dali

So look at that. This positive conclusion from a mix of creative understanding from my fellow INFJ's and blunt criticisms from ESTJ's

 

[livingunique333]

I'm really happy to hear about your situation and where you've come @Veggie. My ESTJ was incredibly damaging and hurtful to me, but the relationship helped change me for the better in the end. The happy times we had, though they were sadly few and far between her very manipulative and passive-aggressive tantrums, are more sweet and less bitter as the time rolls on. She was an unhealthy ESTJ and I was an unhealthy INFJ. That's not a partnership that has any chance of success.

I saw Silver Linings on Friday night and really enjoyed it. The idea of love fixing a person isn't one I agree with of course, but the story was well told. I've heard the book is better (of course) but I haven't read it yet.

One last thing: that Dali quote is one I used to really like as a teenager. I haven't heard it in years. I'm glad you posted it.

 

[Veggie]

I'm really happy to hear about your situation and where you've come @Veggie.

Thanks

My ESTJ was incredibly damaging and hurtful to me, but the relationship helped change me for the better in the end.

I'm glad to hear that too, and I'm sorry you had to get there the hard way (there's more value in that though).

I saw Silver Linings on Friday night and really enjoyed it. The idea of love fixing a person isn't one I agree with of course, but the story was well told.

I don't believe in it either. I see it more as this quote by Jung:

"The meeting of two personalities is like the contact of two chemical substances: if there is any reaction, both are transformed."

I don't think transformation can happen any other way. We're just floating through time and space otherwise. We need those moments of impact, those mirrors, those interactions. We're likely to take them to heart and to introspect about what they mean more when they make us feel something on a deeper level.

Ah anyway. I'm going to bed alone tonight. It feels good to have come to this happy place despite that. Come and try to take it from me now world

One last thing: that Dali quote is one I used to really like as a teenager. I haven't heard it in years. I'm glad you posted it.

It's a good one!

 

[Master1986]

Hi everyone,
I am a new ESTJ to Personality Café. I thought an ESTJ perspective might be helpful to this forum. If I have assumed too much, then I apologize ahead of time. OK, here it goes… I see the world as a rapid information producing animal. I gather all that information and use it to enhance my daily life, hoping to integrate my feelings along the way for balance. I have been married to an INFJ for 11 years and it does not look like we will last the summer. Living with in INFJ is like living with a person from another universe. As an ESTJ, I want to hear your concerns, feelings, problems, issues, and general statements but I want the initial details in less than 2 minutes or less than 250 written words (slightly facetious. 275 is fine). To an ESTJ, initial details beyond that are likely superfluous details and just keeping the conversation from progressing or coming to its logical completion. If you ask my opinion, then expect my opinion. Don’t expect me to be an affirmation machine. If I have a different opinion it does NOT MEAN I LOVE YOU LESS or I HATE YOUR OPINION. It means I have a different opinion. That’s it. I would like you to engage me in a healthy debate. Maybe I will change my opinion or you will change yours. Maybe not. Occasional differences of opinion are not only welcome but will likely make me think less and feel closer to you; increase my desire to support you with your desires; and really want to meet your needs. If I really FEEL that you can accept a differing opinion then I will, again, think a little less and feel emotionally safe with you. The sex will likely become even more “athletic and passionate”, according to one typological website. It will also likely generate spontaneous expressions of love and appreciation for you. I might just hit the mute button on the TV, turn to you and say, “I really like who you are. I’m glad I get to spend time with you.” I also tend to want to move around and not sit around very often. Sometimes I really want to just sit around but that is the minority of the time. This might sound like a nightmare to INFJ’s. I hope getting inside an ESTJ’s brain is helpful but remember I am just one ESTJ. Have to stop now. I am over my own 250 word limit.