5w4's (and 4w5's) live the closest to the void. We are similar to Type 9's in the way that we are about everything and nothing.

 

Closest to the void. I love that.

 

I'm 5w4. I don't really know how to describe myself. I suppose I'm less cerebral and more creative than the average 5.

 

The biggest enigma for me is the 48X tritype. They're such a weird combination it drives me insane, especially if the 8 is quite pronounced. Enneagram 4 and 8 are almost contradictory.

 

The biggest enigma for me is the 48X tritype. They're such a weird combination it drives me insane, especially if the 8 is quite pronounced. Enneagram 4 and 8 are almost contradictory.

Like Flamme et Citron said, I also cannot properly explain myself. But the word "contradictory" is almost perfect.

 

I can relate, but then I have a strong 5 wing so I may be biased. The most fascinating and wisest person I've ever known was a 5w4 and we could have easily lived together in harmony if it hadn't been for his romantic feelings for me.

 

The romantic feelings were not reciprocated; or was there someone else; or what?

(BTW, do you know what his so/sx/sp stackings were? and do you know yours?)

Signed,
4w5 INTJ armoured unit, on the prowl for data.

 

What are 5w4s all about? Often arts, humanities, and social sciences more than computers, math, and hard science. Not that we can't be interested in the latter, too, but the former probably takes precedence. I get the impression that we're somewhat more comfortable with emotion than 5w6s and perhaps more people-oriented, as much as a 5 can be. We may be more open to the mystical and inexplicable than more evidence-driven 5w6s.

Here's a very thorough description of the 5w4, lifted directly from Riso, if you're interested in learning more.

 

hehe

 

5w4s are enigmatic: capable of an intellect like a magnesium flare, deft, practiced, like a master fencer; and at the same time, inwardly querulous and afraid like a child.

I once read a quote about someone who was not impressed with a virtue unless he saw the person also held the opposite virtue;
5w4s are like that, but they don't have a middle ground: they alternate between one and the other.

Oh, and one other point: they live in their heads, almost as much as an INFP: but they are not outwardly as flexible.

If you had to encapsulate a 5w4 in a single word, that word would be: intense.

 

If you had to encapsulate a 5w4 in a single word, that word would be: intense.

Yes!

 

@g_w, I didn't feel the same as him plus I was still getting over my ex. You may not remember but I made the "How to Balance Being Triple Withdrawn w/ Sx Dom" thread that you guested in. The 5w4 was the male friend that I mentioned in that thread. I'm Sx/Sp. I'm not so sure about him, but I think he would be So last like myself. He did say he was INTP though. Also, I thought you were 5w4 too, not 4w5.

 

@g_w , I didn't feel the same as him plus I was still getting over my ex. You may not remember but I made the "How to Balance Being Triple Withdrawn w/ Sx Dom" thread that you guested in. The 5w4 was the male friend that I mentioned in that thread. I'm Sx/Sp. I'm not so sure about him, but I think he would be So last like myself. He did say he was INTP though. Also, I thought you were 5w4 too, not 4w5.

Hi @NylonSmiles,

and a "point" to you as well. I normally have a fairly decent memory of threads I'd posted in; I'm surprised that even your giving me the title didn't spark anything (though such titles are normally catnip to me). But, when I went to look at the thread, it was from July: and that was, like, forever ago.

Now to the substance of your brief post. Now that you explain it: unrequited love, since you were getting over a breakup; makes sense; then revisiting the thread; makes even more sense. Just as 5w4s are contradictory (analytical mystics, who nonetheless can relate to people at a DEEP level on occasion), so the 4w5 seems to be contradictory: they seem to be MUCH deeper and more powerful intellectually than other women, and yet lament how they either are unattractive to men, or cannot find men, while swatting off suitors in the manner of a laser-equipped porch light downing pesky moths...my personal guess is some sort of shame-based mechanism : not just that they feel "unworthy" but that they are afraid if they are truly loved efficaciously by a man, it will undo their negative self image and they will have to emerge into the light, which they insist will be too much for them.

Odd, that last thought, because it brings to mind a song I was listening to today on the headphones while doing some programming:

Joanne Hogg, "Pain" from the Playstation game Xenogears soundtrack. Go figure.

...as for my Enneagram, you peeked at my profile picture next to my post, didn't you? :laughing:

 

We're walking paradoxes. We don't even understand ourselves, let alone others understanding us.

 

And the way you guys write on the internet is so... exquisite. And subtle. I luvvvit.

 

Infp 5w4, yes quick, witty, clever humor that can instantly tie in the past and future events and make relevant to the current situation, able to dissect minutiae. When I'm interested I'm head first let's go 100%, when I'm uninterested and bored I'll be in my own world, la dee da, and yeah we are souls having human experiences, there is no such thing as time and we create our own reality, also treat every human and ANIMAL the way you would want to be treated if you were in that exact situation

 

Living at the edge of the void. I really loved that. I'm a 5w4 (intp) too and I really can't explain much of what goes through my head, but somehow i do understand it. More than math and science, I go crazy for history, art and music. I don't just enjoy them. I feel music running down my body like electricity at the dissonance of notes, or see it as colored smoke dancing in the air. Can stare for hours at a good painting studying every stroke, and if i can feel the strokes with my fingertips it's even more intense. The painting process is more overwhelming. I'm completely gone for hours or days straight when i do so. after 2 or 3 days I realize I haven't eaten. And history is the scope where I see everything in this world connecting. I guess that's also the reason I go happy like a child over astrophysics. Everything connects and it's simply beautiful. Sarcasm is one of the only ways my mind winds off. Analyzing or investigating is my game place. I can't explain how I come into some conclusions, they just seem obvious and are plain to sight. The process of analysis is intricate and sophisticated. But somewhy it's not completely lineal and not completely conscious. It just occurs.

Mmmm relatively concerned about people, but not fully involved i guess. Which is ironic considering how much of a humanist i am (the reason why i became a criminal lawyer). But when in danger, i don't hesitate to go straight into the fight. It has gotten me in troubles sometimes (right now i've got stitches on my hand from separating a huge dog fight a couple of days ago, and it wasn't even my dog i was defending). Overthink things and I study myself everyday, all the time.

I've realized I understand conflict, and will go at it if necessary, but still i dispise it. My mind works in funny ways which sometimes come off as imprudent. I need living near the "void" to feel competent and thus, satisfied with myself. This does bother my loved ones though. They think I live near the edge because I need to prove something, want to be seen as brave or because I'm reckless. But it's not that way at all. I couldn't care less for the opinion of others.

A downfall is that I am vicious. This whole ride of experiencing things too profoundly makes me susceptible to become addicted to any experience or substance that alters my brain, which is something I dispise about myself. I am aware of it so I do my best to stay away from these and remain independent from outer influence.

I could go on but I guess I wouldn't be able to find the exact words to explain it all. Hope this is enough though.

 

My mind works in funny ways which sometimes come off as imprudent. I need living near the "void" to feel competent and thus, satisfied with myself. This does bother my loved ones though. They think I live near the edge because I need to prove something, want to be seen as brave or because I'm reckless. But it's not that way at all. I couldn't care less for the opinion of others.

Your whole post was interesting, I was curious about this in particular. I think it is interesting that living near the void helps you feel competent. I have a SENSE or intuition of how this might be for you but I don't know if accurate. If you feel like sharing more on this point -- on what about living near the void helps you feel competent -- then I would be interested to know.

 

Speaking for my 5w4 INTJ self it's this insane experience of feeling like I choose whether to exist and in what form. I often can't quite decide whether to bother. There is little concrete reality. Impossible is interesting. Everything is funny or at least not serious. I see people who accept the appearance of their reality as the crazy ones.

In the past few years a pattern is forming where daytime me and night me are distinct. Serious face day me wants to create and control in a very make it happen even if I have to tear the fabric of space time with my teeth. Giddy girl night me wants to lay back, observe, maybe go for a bike ride in space, at least in my mind, with a rose in my hair, meet a boy in the Milky Way. I guess it's all play, just not all prey. If nothing else, it's a hell of a ride being whatever this is (she looks skyward and gives the universe a thank you wink).

 

A lot of the shit that runs through my mind is farfetched. Even I can't make sense of most of it, but despite all that, I have an urge to make the impossible a reality. My ideas are so bizarre that I don't like sharing them with anyone because I have an insecurity of appearing like a complete psycho. I come off as too idealistic and impractical, but the truth is that I'm able to find or create a use for everything.

 

5w4 descriptions and 5w4 people themselves (?) seem to mention the way they have "difficulty managing their emotions" ... "struggle to keep control of their feelings" etc. I am a 4 (4w5???) and.. these kinds of things aren't generally said about 4s. Is it because it is sort of what 4s are all about all the way through (following/drowning in emotion to an extent)? I feel like this problem is highlighted in 5s, but sort of maybe assumed to be the case with 4s. We don't struggle to CONTROL our emotion because we ARE our emotion (one way to look at it). Is this how I am to understand this??
If 5w4s seem to lack the ability to manage their feelings, what is said about 4s? Are they just goners? Curious. Any thoughts appreciated.

 

My suspicion is that 4s spend their time trying to *control* their emotions ("D@mmit, emotion! I said come over *this* way!" ... (emotions don't budge) ... (4 gets depressed) when I have come to believe it would be far, far better if they could learn to do something halfway between *riding* their emotions (snowboarding down a mountain and absorbing every bit of quintessence, of savor, of *genuine identity and meaning* to be leached, mined, tasted, ingested, from those emotions as they fly heedlessly down their rampant course)...*or*, directing their emotions -- as external input, a snub, the sight of an animal, give rise to internal soliloquies and vignettes, spawning emotional butterflies which inspire their own chaotic cascades...well, the 4 can learn to self-administer the stimulus to direct the avalanche now here, now there.

The other issue for the 4 (I intuit, but admit this is a guess) is that one of their secret pains, is that they feel it almost impossible to find someone to share the exquisite depth and richness of the gossamer filaments of intensity with: for explaining them verbatim,
and painstakingly cataloging or describing all the implicit interconnections, renders them lifeless and ruins their nourishment.
They feel they must have someone with whom they can communicate directly, soul-to-soul, in knowledge without speech -- shared by a glance, a gesture, a single dart of the eyes...

 

They're the only type that's a true enigma to me... so what are you people all about?:crazy:

Hookers. Blow. Anal sex.

 

I really don't see what the big deal is. I don't understand how a person being a particular type makes them special beings. Not really sure what "living at the void" is either. Could someone explain?

 

Lol who brought up the "special beings" thing? Under that line of thought, every type of person is special. Which means no one is. Everyone's just different. I suppose this is just a topic about a type in a personality forum, like all other types have a thread. Funny thing to see rough edges around here.

 

I don't even understand myself half the time to be honest. People who know me well like to joke that my entire being is composed of contradictions and both extremes rather than any middle ground, even down to my spaghetti-- I like the real thick spaghetti and I like angel hair, but I don't like the normal spaghetti. Of course, there's a reasoning to this, but most people don't bother to ask before calling me irrational/confusing. Those who do listen to my explanation don't understand it and usually reject it as silly. I love using that as a metaphor for my overall personality. Contradictory to others, but making sense to myself.

 

Although I think I'd like to take back what I said about not understanding myself half the time. A proper answer would be that I do understand myself most of the time, but I struggle to express my understanding of myself to others, so then I doubt whether or not I actually do understand.

 

Although I think I'd like to take back what I said about not understanding myself half the time. A proper answer would be that I do understand myself most of the time, but I struggle to express my understanding of myself to others, so then I doubt whether or not I actually do understand.

You've just translated to words what I could not. I feel exactly the same about myself.

 

Maybe it's my sx-lastness, but I don't relate to most of this. As a 5w4, I experience an overwhelming fear of the harshness of the world and of my inability to deal with it, combined with the shame and self-abasement (but not the sense of specialness) of four, only duller. I'm smart, but not smart enough to actually function in the world, I'm not full of contradictions, and I'm not special--because I never *do* anything but think. My world isn't intense, it's grey, dead, and empty, even when I'm happy. When I perceive beauty, it's with the fear that I'm fundamentally incapable of experiencing it like "normal" people, like I'm experiencing the world through a grey curtain. Even my depression is dull and half-assed, and I feel ashamed of that, too. I'm ridiculously fragile and sensitive to other people's expectations of me, but I feel stupid expressing my sensitivity. I understand myself very well, but the constant need to analyze myself, and analyze my self-analysis, and analyze my meta-analysis, ad infinitum, is a trap that keeps me stuck inside my own mind, going around in circles for months or even years with every intention of acting but never getting around to it. Whatever you guys are on, I want some.

 

If only we could each share a little, each take a little of the others insecurities.

I think that, in a way, we are actually the same. We are SEEING the world for what it is. It is just our level of identity with it that is different.

I see people who are just living life and creating attachments and such without a single over-analyed thought and I am enraged with jealousy. Yes, enraged. Ignorance is bliss, I want that bliss. Unfortunately, No matter how often you take away other peoples ignorance, you never get to keep the bliss.

 

I can only go by experience.

Whoever said that this subtype is intense and contradictory is right. My boundaries are are so fortified because my psychological skin is so permeable. I feel and perceive every little thing. It reverberates through my whole being. The subjective and objective are interwoven, as well as thought amd emotion. I feel uncomfortable in the world because it doesn't mirror me (or us if taking into account other 5w4s). There's no commemsurability. This results in feelings of alienation and frustration. The word seems banal and mundane yet we're forced to accept and adopt that.

Being an sp-last 5 is particularly tricky because there is a conflict between total engagement and withdrawal.

 

What am I about?... hm....What AM I about?

Lol. Just when I think that my own character is an enigma, I realize that the question is the answer. I'm about figuring out what things are about. I'm about understanding. I just want to understand, really UNDERSTAND everything... In an honest and real way. (Also, INTP Yo!)

 

You mentioned wit, which is something that puzzles me. I am often tongue tied when I try to give a long explanation of something, but a bon mot may pop out without a thought. I've learned to trust these blurts because in hindsight the connections make sense and the humor is on target. They just well up from some unconscious place. Other contradictions are perfectionism living with procrastination. I will postpone doing a thing because I can't bear assuming the effort it will take to do it to my standards – I'm a very organized person living in a mess. Interpersonally, I want to be wanted, but need to be alone. A long time ago I realized that the friends I have are there because they are the ones who persevered. Although I might be feeling warmly toward someone, my response may be sarcastic. I hate that. Maybe it's my not very nice way of making people prove they're willing to work to know me. Eye contact can be awkward – there's so much that can be read in a few seconds face-to-face with someone that it makes me feel as if I'm intruding on them while exposing myself. Once I sense a phony, I shut down. If you're having trouble understanding this type, I would suggest taking it slow, listening, ratcheting down the intensity, always being authentic and never fudging on integrity. I typically mean what I say, and for good reason, and I don't care so much about being agreed with as being understood. I hope this makes some kind of sense. I'd be interested to hear if other 5w4s have similar experiences.

 

Darling, you just said it all with the right words and timing.

 

They're the only type that's a true enigma to me. I've known a few 5w4s online, although sometimes they can be hypersensitive/not quite...there. And they're fucking hilarious/witty.

A 5w4 I knew in real life liked to stand at the edge of a tall building, look down and explain to me that it was the same as standing anywhere else, only your mindset was different.

The 5w6s are awesome too. But I understand them. The 5w4s I don't... so what are you people all about?:crazy:

I am a 5w4 and can affirm that I would totally do the building thing.