[prsvrnc]

??? For example, Riso & Hudson say, with respect to sx-5s, "In less healthy Fives, the mix of imagination and sexuality can become dark and fetishistic: they can become lost in disturbing fantasies and dreams. ... They are often drawn, through voyeurism, into dangerous lifestyles and can be attracted to society's underbelly." -- this goes along with dark/morbid obessions of type 5 in general.
but about voyeurism -- do other people relate to this? has this drawn you into dangerous lifestyles?
Additionally, I guess I'm curious about how sexuality turns 'dark' in general.. Is this related at all to 5s heighten sensitivity to issues of power?

[sleepyhead]

??? For example, Riso & Hudson say, with respect to sx-5s, "In less healthy Fives, the mix of imagination and sexuality can become dark and fetishistic: they can become lost in disturbing fantasies and dreams. ... They are often drawn, through voyeurism, into dangerous lifestyles and can be attracted to society's underbelly." -- this goes along with dark/morbid obessions of type 5 in general.
but about voyeurism -- do other people relate to this? has this drawn you into dangerous lifestyles?
Additionally, I guess I'm curious about how sexuality turns 'dark' in general.. Is this related at all to 5s heighten sensitivity to issues of power?

I've been trying to reply to this post all morning but I'm having trouble articulating myself properly.

I relate strongly to Riso and Hudson's description of SX 5's. I have some dark fetishes - I won't share the specifics - but when I'm a bit more unhealthy I tend to over-identify with my sx. It feels really good but I also feel like I get a bit more 7-ish when I'm there in that I'm usually more impulsive and escaping through fantasies a lot.

I don't see my past as a "dangerous lifestyle" but others might have. I enjoyed a couple of years of (safely) meeting men from dating websites for the specific purpose of casual fun. The kind of men I had these relationships with were not the kind of men i would want to date. I was always safe with them (friends knew where I was, emergency numbers, meeting in public, etc) but I was also seeking out an outlet for some of my fetishistic fantasies (nothing too extreme, but something I wanted to actually experience instead of just fantasize about). I enjoy giving someone else power over me (in a controlled way) and I had a lot of fun experimenting with it. The type of guys I was attracted to in these relationships would usually put me on a pedestal in the "I can't believe this woman is in my room right now" kinda way. It was fun, and even though i liked giving others power over me, I understood that I in fact held all the power in these relationships. It's something I rarely admit, but I like the fact that I was able to experience people having such awe over me, even if the awe they felt was an illusion - they didn't really know me or anything about me. I liked being able to appear for a few hours and then disappear for months at a time and have them no nothing about my real life. They saw me a couple of times for a few hours at a time for one specific purpose but the way two of those men in particular looked at me - gives me a devious smile.

I would still say I have a bit of a dark, fetishistic sexuality, but I've also merged that taste with my partners and, in my opinion, I now get to experience the best of both worlds.

[prsvrnc]

It's something I rarely admit, but I like the fact that I was able to experience people having such awe over me, even if the awe they felt was an illusion - they didn't really know me or anything about me. I liked being able to appear for a few hours and then disappear for months at a time and have them no nothing about my real life. They saw me a couple of times for a few hours at a time for one specific purpose but the way two of those men in particular looked at me - gives me a devious smile.

Interesting -- I really relate to this a lot.. although I wonder if my reasons for liking anonymity are different from yours. While I think I feel better about myself, now, (although still quite intensely private) i think at least in past, I kept large parts of myself private as a result of mostly lots of shame/guilt for who I 'really was' (perhaps this is where 3-wing pops out? I didn't want other people to see how flawed I was and so would consciously try to only let out certain parts, and would avoid entirely situations that required me to expose more. -- i think i might have both wings, though.)
In any case, the anonymity seems nice because it would allow me to actually embody an IDEAL, since my partners would not know who I really was. i mean, it would be honest expression OF ME, but i could temporarily de-hinge (maybe) from other sorts of doubts and stuff. // also, being anonymous might make make things simpler (almost more pure) -- like, aesthetic presentation of it, emotionally, intellectually, and otherwise.
i do SOMEWHAT compartimentalize my life (like, different people only get to see certain parts), and to some degree, I think this IS a result of desiring freedom to leave, to retreat, etc. (i am 'healthier' now, so i do not have shame as much as did in past.)... do you have any further thoughts on why you liked the anonymity of the above situation that you described?

[sleepyhead]

do you have any further thoughts on why you liked the anonymity of the above situation that you described?

I'm sure it was part of my compartmentalization. I was literally just looking for sex in that my online profile stating I was only seeking casual partners. I didn't want a relationship with these guys. They weren't the kind of people I would ever date and be in a relationship with. It was very freeing. I could be completely honest with them about what I wanted, they could be honest about what they wanted and no one had feelings in the way to get hurt. I could be honest and up front about my sexual taste and desire and it was easy to find a very sexually compatible partner.

It was literally living out a fantasy. I didn't want them to know me in my everyday life, I wouldn't have wanted to bring them around friends or my family. I wasn't very interested in their lives outside of our relationships. I was never dating any of them at any time.

Sex is a very freeing experience for me. It's one of the few times I can be totally grounded and involved. I completely let go of my thoughts and am just there, feeling every single sensation on my body.

But when you bring real, romantic emotions into that equation there's more pressure, anxiety, self-judgement, time to get to know each others tastes and desires - when there is zero emotional attachment there's zero pressure but it's not something that can be sustained in the long term.

[Agape]

Like almost anything else I am an oddball in this subject. I have a very strong interest in sex, I find it fascinating but in my case don't know it is a type 5 thing or an Agape thing that has to do with a role I had in a past live( oddball :p). Because of that interest I have study fetishes and the "dark/morbid" aspect of sex to try to understand it better. My "fetishes" fall more into a PG-13 category and are based on a gentle type of lovemaking that has been called a lot of names through history..the most recent one been Karezza. People will call it "light sexuality" but I don't like labels of any kind because they can mean different things to different people.

There is a part of me that finds Voyeurism/fetishes interesting...maybe for the same reasons that @sleepyhead shared before. In a voyeurism act/fetishes there is a sense of freedom . Unless you achieve a level of total understanding with your partner there is a pressure to perform/preoccupations etc that can get in the way of the sexual experience. Sex can be very liberating indeed akin to meditation.

[prsvrnc]

I wrote this poorly so i don't expect this to be made sense of, entirely. i am tired?

Interesting (both of your comments). -- While I don't intend to give the impression that I think voyeurism is purely a phenomenon associated with "deteriorating" sx-5s (although that is where I found it in Palmer's and the other book's description), I do think it is interesting that these authors put feitsh/voyeurism etc. in this section (the deteriorated one -- although i really sort of to some extent find it irritating to refer (continuously) to "levels of health")… -- and it made me wonder if there was some connection with the "pathological detachment" of a type 5 (this is how Naranjo describes unhealthy 5) and not wanting to be engaged in the more specifics of a personal encounter (such as with sex).
I'm not saying there is necessarily a link, but it did make me wonder…. Almost as if, the freedom described in such sexual episodes, while providing their own high, are like, simultaneously indicating the attractiveness of being a pathologically detached 5 in poorer levels of health. kind of like, inverse relationship.. but, not sure.
i think, to be more realistic, it really is context-dependent.. and just because you engage in this sort of sex-behavior doesn't mean you require it as some sort of negative spiritual idea (i only mean negative in so far as it is.. not 'genuine' -- mistaking the illusion for what is real, which most types (i would say, arguably) do in lower levels of health. -- i.e., unhealthy 9 run towards a love that is actual not real (fake), but can't tell the difference.. they need to go through unravelling process, and develop to 'higher levels of health' in order to reach what is the ACTUAL loving state… similarly for type 4s and mistaking fake authenticity with real authenticity… so, same can happen with type 5… and mistake detachment (sex no strings attached/voeurism) with some ideal of detachment when really it is 'pathological' (in Naranjo's terms) -- and that real 'objectivity'/spiritual detachment is… more 'personal.' blah blah if you get what i'm saying.
thoughts!

[Agape]

I can't get attached to anything..although there is an exception for every rule. In the past I used to think that there was something wrong with me but actually that is great. By detached I mean that I am no longer affect by my fears, desires, wants, expectations and beliefs. There is a sense of total liberation...I accept things as they are and because of that I can find joy in almost anything. You want to talk to me today, fine...if you don't want fine too :p. Usually expectations when they aren't fulfilled cause pain and sadness. Talking here in a spiritual way not in the "I don't care" way.

When I was an unhealthy 5 I tended to "fall in love" with girls that had severe emotional issues. After I became more balance I realized that in those cases I was not really draw to the person per se but by the problems they had. When I realized this I feel so disappointed because all those "love feelings" disappear. We are draw to people that are similar to us or that reinforces a believe that we have about ourselves...I wanted to heal myself through the process of healing others. That part of my life is over so now have healthy relationships with others.

From a sexual point of view I am incapable of having sex with no strings attached. For me sex is like a soul contract. A special kind of bond that I reserve for someone that has touched me deeply and leave echoes inside me. So probably when I was unhealthy the pathological detachment expressed more on an emotional level.

[prsvrnc]

Talking here in a spiritual way not in the "I don't care" way.

Thanks for clarifying that -- I never would have differentiated that otherwise.

[prsvrnc]

oops, didn't mean to post.

[Razare]

"In less healthy Fives, the mix of imagination and sexuality can become dark and fetishistic: they can become lost in disturbing fantasies and dreams.

Yep, describes my tendencies fairly well... yet I'm different people all wrapped in one. My mental controls imposed upon my lower nature generally restrict such possibilities, making it impossible/improbable in normal situations.

It's a part of myself I'm trying to overcome and annihilate... because it serves no purpose toward inner fulfillment.

do other people relate to this? has this drawn you into dangerous lifestyles?

Additionally, I guess I'm curious about how sexuality turns 'dark' in general..

Is this related at all to 5s heighten sensitivity to issues of power?

Yeah, I totally relate. In the past, I was drawn to these sorts of things but for practical reasons, I played it out through online roleplay.

Dungeons and Dragons settings in the game Neverwinter Nights was actually a perfect platform to pursue such things without having to suffer many of the consequences of doing such activities in the real world. And frankly... roleplayed sex was better than the real thing because it was more appealing to the imagination and element of possibility and excitement... rather than a structured situation between two people that plays out over a repeated routine.

Overall the experience helped me to realize the cheapness of sex, and I've concluded it's meaningless even within relationships. It serves to only please a chemical aspect of the brain which exists to encourage reproduction... but this part of our brain ties into negative human qualities, such as lust and thirst for power.


That said, if you wanted someone inclined toward dark sexual tendencies, a sexual type 5 is probably the way to go... granted, I imagine many of us eventually come to logical conclusions in relation to these tendencies and move on.

Meaning is important to all fives, and these darker tendencies of ours have no meaning.