[Enneagram Type 4] Lying

Lying

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This is a discussion on Lying within the Type 4 Forum - The Individualist forums, part of the Heart Triad - Types 2,3,4 category; Have you done it consciously? Has it made you feel specific things in the long term? Do you think there ...

  1. #1
    Type 4w5

    Lying

    Have you done it consciously? Has it made you feel specific things in the long term? Do you think there can be a positive aspect to lying in general? For Fours?



  2. #2
    Type 4w3


    I've done it consciously, yes. Mainly to cover my ass or to avoid hurting someone. Then I realized that, long term, it makes covering my ass harder to do and hurts people way more than if I were blunt to begin with. I'm not proud of lies I've told in the past, but I am proud that this is an area where I've grown hugely.
    noflawsnostory and wittyfool thanked this post.

  3. #3
    Type 4w5

    I think lying should be seen more positively. Suppose you mean something, you understand something and you also understand that you will not be understood. You say exactly the opposite of what you meant to say and you know in your heart that it is out of genial mockery that you do this. If some appreciate what you said in literal sense, you will see that they are idiots. If someone sees the mockery, you will be delighted that at least someone can look underneath the surface. I think in this manner lying is saying things that you do not mean directly. I think lying in this sense is crucial to Fours' social survival. Lying all the time while waiting to be understood by someone that I am lying in an obvious way.

    Comments?

  4. #4

    You mean like sarcasm? If you used it often enough your whole life would be a lie. I don't think it would work all that well.

  5. #5
    Type 4w3

    One of my favorite quotes, "there are white lies, and black lies, and many shades of gray lies."

    People lie all the time. To look better, keep people from feeling hurt, and even to strengthen relationships. I have a type 2 friend who would constantly insist I was her best friend, all the while telling four other people the same thing. I've lied, sometimes just for the sake of it - sometimes to make a story more interesting, even - and it's not really something I'm proud of, necessarily, but I don't see it as harmful. Unless you're hurting someone or being malicious, what's the real harm in a little dose of fiction? :)

    The only thing is that I'm not really a good liar. My emotions are all over my face. Story-telling is one thing, being poker-faced and cool when I know I'm in the wrong is something else entirely.
    chimeric, OldManRivers and wittyfool thanked this post.

  6. #6
    Type 4w3


    Quote Originally Posted by wittyfool View Post
    I think lying should be seen more positively. Suppose you mean something, you understand something and you also understand that you will not be understood. You say exactly the opposite of what you meant to say and you know in your heart that it is out of genial mockery that you do this. If some appreciate what you said in literal sense, you will see that they are idiots. If someone sees the mockery, you will be delighted that at least someone can look underneath the surface. I think in this manner lying is saying things that you do not mean directly. I think lying in this sense is crucial to Fours' social survival. Lying all the time while waiting to be understood by someone that I am lying in an obvious way.
    If I'm understanding you correctly, I wouldn't call these lies exactly. I play devil's advocate a lot and pick at/tease people (who don't always recognize what I'm doing). Often it's a Socratic attempt to expand their thoughts. Other times, I'm just amusing myself. People don't get hurt by it, though -- or at least, they never show it and I never intend it.

    So... yeah. No apologies for that one. I enjoy it and readily indulge. ;)
    wittyfool thanked this post.

  7. #7
    Type 4w5

    Now that we have established that it is fun and serves some utility as well, let's talk what makes this difficult sometimes and impossible at others.

    @chimeric in absence of a better word, let it be lying for a while. You get the idea.

    I think too much of emotionality, seeing emotions as oneself hinders the cool apparatus that one's persona can be. Also one cannot be a persona all the time. Some elements of the self have to be expressed. The blending of the true and the false is what I am talking here. Have you tried this? With or without success? What emotion hinders you from this? Particular experiences?
    chimeric thanked this post.

  8. #8
    Type 4w5

    Yes, I have lied and it has gotten me into a lot of trouble. I want to be honest from now on. Lying is being fake and phony. It does not do anyone any good and will come back to bite you. Trust me on this.
    singinbluebird thanked this post.

  9. #9

    I agree with WildWolf711, lying will come back and bite you. It is karma, waiting to happen. I hate being lied to and now I especially hate to lie to others. Sometimes I lie to protect myself and its bad, in return I just lose myself and isolate myself from others. Sometimes I lie out of sarcasm or just say things to get a reaction, if Im being silly that is...but others can take it truthfully and then deem me a liar. Which is hurtful, and in turn, only hurts myself. When you hurt others, the only person you truly end up hurting is yourself.

    I would say if you want to spare other's peoples feelings and you dont want to lie, then just walk away and never say a thing. People can tell from your actions what is up. They can then determine if they want to know the truth and ask you, or they will walk away and determine their own truths to what has happened. Words dont mean much, just watch their actions.

  10. #10
    Type 4

    Being honest is tough, but I try to be truthful most of the time.


 

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