[Adesi]

It sounds like you are describing half-truths in the corporate world (as opposed to personal half-truths). Unfortunately, half-truths make the corporate world go round.

The one time between him and me I would consider more personal, but yeah, other than that if he's used it as something to hide something he didn't want to reveal about himself personally I haven't noticed.



I'm not sure exactly how I'd handle that. If the information isn't public, I'm responsible to keep it from being public. I'd probably toe the line, but I would have to be prepared to do so in advance and not caught off guard to do it convincingly and properly. I wouldn't specify May. And I'd probably be technical about the way I said it. "That's all the information I have to give." (I have more information, but not to give). I'd include that there might be cuts. I would not volunteer in a soup kitchen, but I would justify the actions in some way.

[Wake]

I'll come back to this post for a moment and take it seriously this time. What you have described is an unhealthy 3. From what I can tell about @Popinjay he isn't unhealthy, and neither am I for that matter (perhaps not healthy, but I do fall into the upper average catagory. Healthy on a good day though).

A 3 concerned with social image will do things to keep a good image. I think it's a matter of how strong your will to fight your conscience is to dive into moral relativity in order to continue to keep a good image or allow your image to take a shot for honesty.

Also you stated that you have made distance between yourself and your friend, but why call this one your "friend"? Just easier to say that than some guy I know that I do not like? Isn't that a falsehood?

A friend who I'm distancing to a more acquaintance level relationship. I don't know why you care to take issue with this.

*warning! here comes a joke!* You unhealthy bastard

I don't know how you're taking this but I took the OP as "someone you just met for a first (possible blind) date, or even somebody new you just met. I could be wrong and perhaps I should re-read it just to make sure.

Why on earth would you spill all of your problems out on a first date? I can see that you would need to come clean a little bit later but when it comes to first impressions then you have to stick your best foot forward. If you go out on a first date with a girl and she starts telling you all of her life's problems what are you going to think? One of two things I can think of off the top of my head would be either of these:1)"Sooo.....hooooot...."<-in which case you should re-think how you think
2)"WTF? Better stay away from this psycho bitch"

Ya, you put your best foot forward but you don't have to mislead/act fake to have someone like you. Acceptance of who you are is good enough for me to wait for.

I did say that only if the other person tries to pull the truth out of you do you give insight, and that doesn't mean you spill your guts.

Rethink honesty for sex? A boundary for me, though I'm sure many men have sold out the truth for pussy. It depends on your personal standard.

Again your first post was that of an unhealthy 3, not all 3's in general, this is why I called it typism.

I've already disputed your belief that it's only unhealthy 3's, but a matter of your ability to follow your conscience. Conscience being part of your super ego and 3's being an id type may play some role in this ignoring of conscience, but I'll have to read up on why a 3 is an id type.

O how have you made a grave mistake there! You have awakened the Ti/Ne argument monster!

Ya, it's more of a speak your mind instead of dismiss to set things straight. Your pic took up a lot of room.

Yes, this is the part where you come clean because this comes after the first date.

I don't think alluding to the truth instead of hiding it is a poor decision. It all depends on the situation I guess.

I agree, but the key difference in our reasoning here is that it really only happens when you are trying to make a good impression, it's only human to want to. After that first impression I would probably give them more and more of the whole truth until it came to a point where not knowing the entire truth only hurts one or both of us.

I suppose I am not willing to compromise the truth by misleading activities because I want others not to find reasons to not trust me and think more of my trustworthiness in the long term.

I also believe that this is not only a "3" thing.

My stance is probably not a 1 thing either, though uncompromising.

Well, I'll study the 3's unhealthy ways and apologize if I'm wrong. I've said all that their is to say on my side, so I guess this conversation can be put to rest.

Thanks for responding.

[L]

A 3 concerned with social image will do things to keep a good image. I think it's a matter of how strong your will to fight your conscience is to dive into moral relativity in order to continue to keep a good image or allow your image to take a shot for honesty.

A healthy 3 concerned with social image will be things to keep a good social image, which includes honesty.
An unhealthy 3 concerned with social image will fake things to keep a good social image.

[Tengwar]

I'm a 4w3 and I can relate to this.

I think all people tell white lies from time to time. I can see how a 3 could be more aware of this/do it more often, but it's not just 3's.
Maybe it has to do with the Heart triad? Image is important for us so we create an image by telling different things to different people, or by doing other things that create an idea in someone else about who we are.

I don't know if it's because I'm a cynical 4, but I can't see how anyone can escape this thing. We don't tell people everything about us and we tell different things to different people. Sometimes we don't tell the truth about very important things, sometimes it's just small stuff that doesn't matter.
There are things that we don't want to tell people because they are too personal. If someone can't relate to that.... Well, don't come close to me

I try to not tell different stories to different people though. Even if it's not lies, strictly speaking, I mostly have some sort of inner idea about what I want people to know about me. I may tell some people more about myself than others, of course, but different things to different people isn't ordinary for me.

[Tengwar]

@Wake

No offense, but I don't think you understand what it is like to be a 3. It's not about acting like a cheesy chameleon without an identity.. I guess unhealthy 3's could be like that. I'm sorry to hear about that friend of yours. I have a friend (if I can call her a friend...) who I think is an unhealthy three. She is the stereotypical, "hi-i-have-no-identity"-girl. But you know what? I don't use her as an example. First, I may be wrong. She hasn't typed herself, it's just my qualified guesses. Second, she's one of the most unhealthy persons I've ever met. It would be like using Lindsey Lohan as an example while discussing women. It's not fair.

[L]

@Wake

No offense, but I don't think you understand what it is like to be a 3. It's not about acting like a cheesy chameleon without an identity.. I guess unhealthy 3's could be like that. I'm sorry to hear about that friend of yours. I have a friend (if I can call her a friend...) who I think is an unhealthy three. She is the stereotypical, "hi-i-have-no-identity"-girl. But you know what? I don't use her as an example. First, I may be wrong. She hasn't typed herself, it's just my qualified guesses. Second, she's one of the most unhealthy persons I've ever met. It would be like using Lindsey Lohan as an example while discussing women. It's not fair.

Thank you!

[Wake]

@Wake

No offense, but I don't think you understand what it is like to be a 3. It's not about acting like a cheesy chameleon without an identity.. I guess unhealthy 3's could be like that. I'm sorry to hear about that friend of yours. I have a friend (if I can call her a friend...) who I think is an unhealthy three. She is the stereotypical, "hi-i-have-no-identity"-girl. But you know what? I don't use her as an example. First, I may be wrong. She hasn't typed herself, it's just my qualified guesses. Second, she's one of the most unhealthy persons I've ever met. It would be like using Lindsey Lohan as an example while discussing women. It's not fair.

I didn't say that the friend had no identity. That's great that you side with Lawliet. I've stopped following this thread until I find my views to be incorrect. I ended my role in this thread with a stance that I would apologize when/if I proven myself wrong. That's great that you have an opinion which is not in agreement with mine, but you didn't really argue any logic if you were looking to argue. I just view it as making noise.

[Wake]

Agreeing to disagree has left a bitter taste in some of our mouths, apparently, I'll argue my perspective as though I care if you agree with me. It's really for your feelings that I'm continuing my role in this conversation. I prefer for everyone to walk away from a conflict of ideas saying "Oh, someone disagreed with me and I gave the my perspective, maybe the truth will catch up to them sooner or later or maybe I'm wrong." Hence why I gave you my word that I would look into the truthfulness of my current perspective.

A part of timeless' Freudian article:

Type 3: Id Achiever.
Basic Fear: To become worthlessness.
Basic Desire: To become usefulness and to have value.
Agency: Id.

The Type 3 is a motivated, goal-oriented achiever. They are part of the Image triad in Enneagram, and many people associate the Type 3 with "ostentatiousness"; but that there's far more to Type 3 than status seeking. Healthy threes are often industrious and highly successful, and that's because of their id.

The id is the source of the libido drive. But the libido doesn't just mean sex! It means all psychic energy. Type 3 is so industrious because they channel their libido into productive pursuits. At the same time, they get a deep id gratification when they accomplish something. They don't put their energies into serving a higher cause, like Type 1 or 2. Instead, their energy is directed back at themselves. This isn't a bad thing: it makes Type 3 one of the most dynamic and proactive types in the enneagram.

To Encourage Integration: Don't let your id convince you that you are completely responsible for all your successes. Appreciate the contributions of others. Not everything is a competition; you can allow people into your life, even if they steal the spotlight from time to time. As you integrate, you'll begin to cultivate a 6-like trust of other people.

To Avoid Disintegration: An unhealthy 3 may fall into the trap of focusing on their own failures and creating more and more apathy. This forms into a downward spiral that can be dangerous. Try not to lose sight of your goals.

See, 3's really are self-serving, as the article made light of "Instead, their energy is directed back at themselves." They are goal oriented, productive people as I said. They have a knack for looking for advantages and disadvantages because they really want to be successful a.k.a win. The winning focus may lead them to not take up moral stances because finding an ends sometimes more important than the means to get there. My friend does not focus on his failures, he's actually looking for ways to achieve what he wants. I consider him within the level 5-7 range, and yes, I do take issue with all of the things described below, but I'm a 1, it shouldn't be expected that I should not being of this type:

Average Levels
Level 4: Highly concerned with their performance, doing their job well, constantly driving self to achieve goals as if self-worth depends on it. Terrified of failure. Compare self with others in search for status and success. Become careerists, social climbers, invested in exclusivity and being the "best."

Level 5: Become image-conscious, highly concerned with how they are perceived. Begin to package themselves according to the expectations of others and what they need to do to be successful. Pragmatic and efficient, but also premeditated, losing touch with their own feelings beneath a smooth facade. Problems with intimacy, credibility, and "phoniness" emerge.

Level 6: Want to impress others with their superiority: constantly promoting themselves, making themselves sound better than they really are. Narcissistic, with grandiose, inflated notions about themselves and their talents. Exhibitionistic and seductive, as if saying "Look at me!" Arrogance and contempt for others is a defense against feeling jealous of others and their success.

Unhealthy Levels
Level 7: Fearing failure and humiliation, they can be exploitative and opportunistic, covetous of the success of others, and willing to do "whatever it takes" to preserve the illusion of their superiority.

Even level 4 fits my description. It's just level 7 that's most off-putting because they start really harming others to achieve.

The Freudian explanations are my most trusted descriptions because they tell what part of our psyche these motivations come from, and how we deal with that using the Freudian agencies.

I think 3's are great at what they care about as all types are, but like every other type they have their issues in pursuit of their own values. I have mine also, don't worry.

[Popinjay]

@Stephen, can you close this thread? Thanks man.