[niss]

Respect for the person you are marrying? I fail to see how learning more about yourself, your own body, and not in a sleep-with-everything-I-find way, but connect-to-the-person-I-love way, because before anything it's YOUR body, no one else, is a mark of disrespect. actually, some would even say that learning through someone with more experience than yourself how to satisfy the other sex properly would be the mark of respect. Picture the 20 something years old guy having waited all his life to have sex with his wife. Picture the wife having expected her wedding night to be her perfect night. She would be sorely disapointed by the clumsiness, the lack of consideration, the urge to finally get it on and have his realease of the husband. You can say it's more romantic if you want, more thruthful, makes a deeper connection, but that it's a mark of respect? Sorry, can't agree to that.

I'd say reserving your sexual intimacy for one person and learning how to please that one person is by far more respectful of the deep intimacy that sex can bring to a relationship.

[niss]

well, I'd really like to meet some and hear their point of view on this. Seems really interesting. I hope for them they are able to hold true to their wedding vows and aren't overcome by curiosity later on to try new girls. I may have never met any guy that wanted to wait until their marriage, but I've met a lot of guys that lost their virginity to their girlfriend as teenagers, and after dating those girls for a few years, got curious and had to break off with them to have new experiences, even though everything was fins with their girlfriends. While this is easy when you're just dating, it's a lot harder when you're married and already an adult. So good luck for them.

Ok, you're hearing the POV of one of them. So far it's worked pretty well.

[Trekiael]

Really? Current statistics put condoms, when used properly, at failing to prevent pregnancy 3% of the time. Sure, it's a small number, but if it can't even prevent pregnancy all of the time, it is foolish to tout condoms as a failsafe against STI's.

The only true way to be sexually active and avoid sexually transmitted diseases is by both partners having maintained a monogamous relationship with each other--and no one else.

So, because you seemed to know more about it than me, and I din't like to state facts without knowing well my subject, I made some research.

First, I never said that it was a good idea to have sex with random strangers, but saying "you'll die of STD if you don't have sex with only one person for the rest of your life" is pushing it. What happens to people that have been happily married since they were 19, but one of them dies at 34? The one left can never have sex again because, unless they start a new relationship with a virgin more than 10 years younger, they can't be sure of never being infected? It happens more than you think, my dad and my best friend's mom are good exemple. Without going that far, I wish you the best luck, but divorces happen very often, sadly, even people that have been married happily for over 20 years can end up divorcing (one of my friend's parents did, and I was really surprised about it). And after that, what? No sex for the rest of your life? And of course, there's the cheating part. Admitting that SJs might be less enclined to cheating than other types, then SJs can only marry SJs. As for the other types, well, good luck. I'm not saying that I approve of cheating. But people that end up cheating are often people that have been in a relationship for a long time, ended up assuming that love was there with their partner and they didn't need to seduce anyone anymore, but when someone new that shows obvious attraction to them, they are reminded of the fact that they can be attractive, and are weak to that. Also, trying something new with someone is exiting and breaks the routine of their couple, especially if they have young children and no time to take care of their couple. It happens, more often to people that feel unsecure about themselves, that are used to be the center of attention and/or people that don't make any effort to hold their couple steady with a rich sexual life. All the more reason why I don't encourage people to wait until marriage to have sex, especially not in our society where you see everywhere people having free sex, the curiosity is a nagging feeling that will never shut up. And this end up being even more dangerous. Because the more prone you are to cheating and the more important the vows are "I will save myself only for you", the more people will tend to hide to their partner the fact that they are cheating, and having had a taste of it, will like it and end up doing it again. Human beings are weak, their desires overcome their will more often than not.

But back to our STD problem. From what I read, yes, you are right, condom is not as good as I thought it was. Because the AIDS bacteria is so small it can sneak its way through latex. Now, there ways to prevent that, or at least reduce the risks: make sure the condom it not kept in a place too hot or too cold, do not open it with your teeth, do not use oily lube, and you can also use two condoms. Also, anal sex tends to rip condoms more easily than vaginal sex, sadly for gay couples. And vaginal infections make it a lot more dangerous. Of, yeah, that too: using a condom, chances of being contaminated still exist for women, not for men (or the receiving partner in a gay couple). Now, if you consider it on a general population: Take the number of people having STDs, take the number of people in that group that you will meet, take the number of those people that will hide to you the fact that they do (or will not know), take in that group the number of people you feel attracted enough to sleep with, and in that very small group take the one you will end up sleeping with. Damn, you're one hell of an unlucky bastard if when sleeping with that one person your condom rip. Seriously, using condoms and having a normal sex life with someone you have learnt to know at least some, that you want to have a relationship with, not switching partners every time you go to a nightclub, should be good enough. Accidents can happen, but the rate has to be a lot lower than having a car crash (got there, done that). Also, I've seen many girls stopping to use condoms when they got to use the pills, because they were more worried about getting pregnant than STDs, and condoms can be annoying. But pills do nothing against STDs and when they broke up with their boyfriends, if they ended up having casual sex, they wouldn't be too worried about getting pregnant because of the pills, and would become careless by not using condoms.

There's not miracle solution against STDs, and people that got infected have the right to still have sex, under the condition of being extra careful. So yeah, it's important to be careful, but we shouldn't get paranoid either. And while what your prone is all nice and good, it's utopic by far.

In my humble opinion.

[Trekiael]

Ok, you're hearing the POV of one of them. So far it's worked pretty well.

Really? How long have you been married? What type is she? ^^

[Trekiael]

I'd say reserving your sexual intimacy for one person and learning how to please that one person is by far more respectful of the deep intimacy that sex can bring to a relationship.

That's one of the thing I really don't like about our current society: on one side you have people that treat sex overly-casually, and on the other, those that make such a big deal out of it. Moraly speaking, I think it's not a good idea to engage in too much sex with too many different people. There's the question of self respect, and the fact that when you percieve most of your relationships with the opposite sex (or the same one if you're gay) with a sexual point of view, you loose ways of forming much deeper, meaningful relationships with a lot of people. And personally, I think sex with someone you don't feel anything for is dull. But on the other side, sex shouldn't be seen as something sacred, the Holy Graal of relationships. Necessary to procreate, and a good way to feel good, have fun, release your pent up energy, stress-reliever and a way to connect to you most inner bestial instincts. Sex is not a fusion of two perfectly connected souls through mind and body. Nothing so mystic. It's dirty, it's exiting, it's fun, it can be painful (on purpose or not), violent (when you like it that way), soft and slow if you want it to be, and yes, when there's love it's wonderful, but if we keep making it seem so magical, it's no wonder teenager will want to have it at such a young age, and once the disapointment is over and they face the reality of it, take a liking to it without being mature enough to understand it fully.

[Sunrain]

Well, I think sex can be lots of things...

Casual, fun, passionate, loving, dangerous, very meaningful, very meaningless... it just depends. I don't think it's possible to generalize about when people should have sex and with whom...just like it's not possible to generalize about whom you should hug and kiss... It's just something you do because you want to and it feels right. And just as you can want to hug someone for many different reasons, you can want to have sex for many different reasons....: love, passion, sympathy, boredom, loneliness, curiosity.... And I think all those reasons are valid.
Yes, if you have sex you're taking some risks, and it's up to everyone to make sure they are ready to face the potential consequences of their actions. That applies to everything, not just sex.

If it felt right for me to wait to have sex until I was married, I would. So far it has felt right for me to have sex with people I loved, with people I was incredibly attracted to, one relationship out of boredom and one out of loneliness. And I wouldn't change any of them because they all made me grow as a person in some way.

Anyway, I don't have any answers to bring to this discussion, was just doing some thinking out loud :-)

[Sunrain]

That's one of the thing I really don't like about our current society: on one side you have people that treat sex overly-casually, and on the other, those that make such a big deal out of it. Moraly speaking, I think it's not a good idea to engage in too much sex with too many different people. There's the question of self respect, and the fact that when you percieve most of your relationships with the opposite sex (or the same one if you're gay) with a sexual point of view, you loose ways of forming much deeper, meaningful relationships with a lot of people. And personally, I think sex with someone you don't feel anything for is dull. But on the other side, sex shouldn't be seen as something sacred, the Holy Graal of relationships. Necessary to procreate, and a good way to feel good, have fun, release your pent up energy, stress-reliever and a way to connect to you most inner bestial instincts. Sex is not a fusion of two perfectly connected souls through mind and body. Nothing so mystic. It's dirty, it's exiting, it's fun, it can be painful (on purpose or not), violent (when you like it that way), soft and slow if you want it to be, and yes, when there's love it's wonderful, but if we keep making it seem so magical, it's no wonder teenager will want to have it at such a young age, and once the disapointment is over and they face the reality of it, take a liking to it without being mature enough to understand it fully.

Great post :)

[Trekiael]

Well, I think sex can be lots of things...

Casual, fun, passionate, loving, dangerous, very meaningful, very meaningless... it just depends. I don't think it's possible to generalize about when people should have sex and with whom...just like it's not possible to generalize about whom you should hug and kiss... It's just something you do because you want to and it feels right. And just as you can want to hug someone for many different reasons, you can want to have sex for many different reasons....: love, passion, sympathy, boredom, loneliness, curiosity.... And I think all those reasons are valid.
Yes, if you have sex you're taking some risks, and it's up to everyone to make sure they are ready to face the potential consequences of their actions. That applies to everything, not just sex.

If it felt right for me to wait to have sex until I was married, I would. So far it has felt right for me to have sex with people I loved, with people I was incredibly attracted to, one relationship out of boredom and one out of loneliness. And I wouldn't change any of them because they all made me grow as a person in some way.

Anyway, I don't have any answers to bring to this discussion, was just doing some thinking out loud :-)

Agreed. Though personally, unless pissed drunk, I wouldn't be able to have sex out of boredom or loneliness (being an SJ, I'm rarely ever bored anyway XD Lonlely it happens, but then we have a big gathering with friends at our favorite restaurant, and that fullfills my need for people well enough ^^)

There's no correct answer to this of course, each person has their own feelings on the matter, but it is true that SJs are often a little too judgemental and close-minded on matters that are a little out of their boundiaries. Never thought about it before, but I even wonder if there isn't the largest proportion of homophobic people in SJs. Could be an interesting question. Of course, being an SJ myself, there's some stuff that tend to make me twitch and I have a serious lack of tolerance for. Morever, I'm an ESTJ, maybe the strictest and most control-freak type of them all ^^;;

[niss]

@Trekiael--

I've been gone a few days with SWMBO, celebrating our 25th anniversary. You've brought up many, many points, some deserving of their own thread. Unfortunately, time is an issue and I simply do not have the time to either form a rebuttal, or post an explanation for all of these points. So I'll simply say that from my experience in life and talking with many, many people about this subject:

I've often encountered people that say that they've chosen to have multiple sexual partners and that they've regretted it. Seldom do I encounter a person that has been monogamous that tells me that they've regretted it. There are a few things in life worth waiting for...this is one of them.

[Trekiael]

@Trekiael--

I've been gone a few days with SWMBO, celebrating our 25th anniversary. You've brought up many, many points, some deserving of their own thread. Unfortunately, time is an issue and I simply do not have the time to either form a rebuttal, or post an explanation for all of these points. So I'll simply say that from my experience in life and talking with many, many people about this subject:

I've often encountered people that say that they've chosen to have multiple sexual partners and that they've regretted it. Seldom do I encounter a person that has been monogamous that tells me that they've regretted it. There are a few things in life worth waiting for...this is one of them.

Sorry, not being american, I've got no idea what SWMBO is XD
Of course I'm not saying that there's no valid point to your argument, but I've got troubles believing in One True Love, for me it's more of a question of working to make it work and life's hardships make it much harder than your own will can take sometimes. But here I think it's not only a question of type, but also of culture, and USA is still a lot more religious and bent on the traditional sense of the family than us french can be. I think.