[niss]

Asking why has been one of the quickest ways into an argument with my SJ parents and employers. It seems as if they get so offended by this question because they can't actually answer it with anything other than Si based "that's just the way it is", and are unable to fathom that the rest of us need more than that if we're to do something that has no obvious logical point.

If they'd bother to explain it (or were capable) in a way that made actual sense other than "I said so" or "because you're supposed to", without flipping out because someone dared to challenge their "authority", they'd get so much more done in life. I've never understood why SJs insist on hitting this wall with people.

Depends on when and how you ask "why." If you approach a problem with another solution in mind, I'm all ears. If you approach a problem by trying to see how much work you can get out of, and don't have a real solution--I don't have time to listen.



As for getting things done--and through other people? I really don't struggle with that at all. Srsly. I can make a half dozen phone calls and I will have 30-40 people mobilized and ready to work in a matter of hours, should the need arise. All volunteer, and all ready to do whatever I direct them to do. I've worked hard to develop this level of trust in the people I know, and I've surrounded myself with the very best of the best. You want it done? I can get it done. Through other people. Willingly.

Until you've tasted the responsibility that comes with serving others, you don't have a clue about authority.

[Nobleheart]

Depends on when and how you ask "why." If you approach a problem with another solution in mind, I'm all ears. If you approach a problem by trying to see how much work you can get out of, and don't have a real solution--I don't have time to listen.

As for getting things done--and through other people? I really don't struggle with that at all. Srsly. I can make a half dozen phone calls and I will have 30-40 people mobilized and ready to work in a matter of hours, should the need arise. All volunteer, and all ready to do whatever I direct them to do. I've worked hard to develop this level of trust in the people I know, and I've surrounded myself with the very best of the best. You want it done? I can get it done. Through other people. Willingly.

Until you've tasted the responsibility that comes with serving others, you don't have a clue about authority.

I'm the Creative Director for a national youth ministry. Before that, I was the IT Coordinator for an entire college. I have also spent many years as a Counselor for youth services, focusing on teens in addiction recovery. I've tasted both responsibility and authority in my many years that I've spent both working for others and running my own freelance business.

What we're discussing here is a difference of perspective, not a difference of fact. There are many ways to approach the same problem. Your perspective works for you. Mine works for me. However, it's been very clear in my many years of being in the work force that unless an SJ is well developed and balanced, our perspectives on how, why, and when to do things is inevitably going to clash. You're proving that point in these replies. However, I do want to thank you for providing insight as to what causes the clash between myself and the SJ perspective. In as long as I've been clashing with SJs, I've never gotten much of an explanation, and what you're offering here is very valuable to me. Hopefully this insight will help me get along better with SJs in the future - both the well developed and the not so well developed ones.

[niss]

However, it's been very clear in my many years of being in the work force that unless an SJ is well developed and balanced, our perspectives on how, why, and when to do things is inevitably going to clash.

And I guess that is my issue with the conversation---it's not an SJ thing---it's a people thing. Regardless of type, immature and unbalanced people are always a problem in any organization.

Glad to have been of some help.

[kiwigrl]

ok disclaimer.. I don't think all SJs are like this, my parents are just anal retentive about order and need everything done the "right" way according to an exact schedule which obviously drives me crazy. My dad who's some sort of unhealthy ESxJ also has a volatile temper, and the only reason my mum who's probably an ISFJ stayed with him is bc her patience is a double edged sword, thinking she can change him by staying, thus remaining a miserable doormat for the rest of her life. She always makes excuses for him, like our business isn't going very well, and whenever he doesn't make money, he's inevitably going to be grumpy! Well gee, how am I supposed to react sympathetically, nice to be of service for letting you take it out on me every time that happens?

It seems all they ever do is criticise me for being lazy and incompetent, and this actually takes quite a toll on my self-esteem as much as I try to detach afterwards. Granted, sometimes I'm slacking on the household chores, I'm trying to put more effort in to get them off my back, but today after I forgot to take in the washing, my dad went off at me like you wouldn't imagine over something so petty! I never understood why parents feel the need to be so fussy over their kids' living space being a little messy.. they think sloppy organisation is a reflection on my whole competence and independence as a person. It's like the warped logic you hear about people who drop out of school/college being a reflection of their commitment in relationships, well my parents think no one could possibly respect me for living in my head and not being practical enough. They're even meticulous about clothes not being folded properly, like are you serious? You're going to unfold those clothes when you wear them!!! ARGH!!!!!!! (disgusted with myself for having such genes). I just calmed down from a huge screaming fight with them and although it would be ideal for me to move out, that option isn't practical as I'm still financially dependent on them. ): Any tips on how to cope? It seems the only compromise they'll except is ABIDE BY OUR RULES OR YOU ARE DISRESPECTFUL AND USELESS. </rant>

I'm also curious if you are an SJ, how well did you get along with your SJ and/or intuitive parents?

My father was an ISTJ and my husband is an ISFJ.

My father was extremely anal retentive and critical about how things had to be done. If you respected his need for that order then he was fine. Of course I disappointed him on occasion as is natural with this kind of anal retentive behaviour.

With my ISFJ husband, I occasionally don't live up to his expectations either and he will go off at me. To which I reply that I won't always have things the way he likes it but this is something he will have to be understanding of. I am not perfect and besides which I have my own ideas of how things should be done too, some of which he fails at. I have begun to take things with a grain of salt in some circumstances when I think it really doesn't matter and he should just chill out. Other times I see that he has a good point and am willing to change things.

I don't know... these SJ types are so flippin stubborn that it's hard to get through to them, you have to chip away at them a little bit at a time, and try to be patient in the mean time.

Oh and btw, as an ENFJ I am intolerant of some kinds of mess too. I think that is a parent thing rather than a SJ thing. I am perfectionistic when it comes to folding washing too (can't help it, sorry), though having said that I have always abhorred ironing and will try to avoid it like the plague lol. Maybe it is a subconscious rebellion towards my mum for her obsession with ironing absolutely everything when I was a kid, and making me participate. For the same reason I abhor cleaning the bathroom because she always made me go back and re-do it to her satisfaction, however I can not avoid the bathroom can I?

[raptured asylum]

I would most likely say that my mother is an ESFJ. She is just overreactive to the point where i think she is just faking it.

[NovaStar]

Well, I have a serious ISFJ mother, but at times, I've been able to trust her to help me when I need it. She isn't as overbearing as some mothers I've known, but when she does get in a bad mood, you know something has to be done as soon as she says it. It still bothers me today when she gets that way, but I've learned to just wait her mood out, then make a swift getaway after finishing the tasks she gave me.

Maybe looking at things from the perspective of the parent will help? I've found the ability to put myself in others' shoes and think like them (even for just a moment) to be highly rewarding and useful in almost any situation dealing with my mother. My father seems to be an ISTP, but I've had few issues with him. We don't share much in terms of interests, but we generally give each other space. Still, I ironically feel a little more comfortable working through problems with him, especially impersonal problems.

[At_the_Meadows]

Parenting Styles to a fault:

SJs - Their rigidness and coercion will make you want to question if they really love you, or just love the control factor.
SPs - They will probably runaway from being a parent and a responsible figure, and blame it all on the other partner for not
understanding that they love having multiple partners. "Whatever goes, man"
NFs - They will be manipulative and controlling with every personal relationship you have. They'll also have a major grudge against
you if you hurt their feelings.
NTs - They will put their careers or their thirst for knowledge first, family second. Oh, and you're weak if you're a feeling type. Obviously, you're not gonna solve climate change if you start crying about the polar bears. Also, if you are an S type, you're gonna be so slow compared to us geniuses. SPs are too lazy for world domination.

Am I stepping on any toes here? lol

[Owfin]

Am I stepping on any toes here? lol

If it's a joke, I'd say you did A+. If it's serious, you get an F-.