[Pointless Activist]

What do SJs tend to want out of people? Like blunt answers, etc.... I have a whole family full of them, and I have no idea how to communicate. If you could help, that would be appreciated immensely. Thanks!

[Christie42476]

I'll be very interested to hear the SJ perspective on this. I don't know if I've ever known any SFJ's, but I do have some experience with STJs, and that has always been:

(1) They want you to say what you mean and mean what you say. Don't hedge or equivocate or BS them. Don't expect them to magically know what you're thinking -- be upfront about it. Because they will be upfront with you, and they expect the same in return.
(2) They want whatever you say to have some kind of point, purpose, or relevance. If they respect you and enjoy your company, they can indulge any need you have for a random, abstract kind of conversation and offer some fascinating insights into the subject, but it's not something they generally like to do, overall. They dislike wasting time -- they'd rather be doing than talking. The ones I know are "work hard, play hard" types.
(3) Do not deceive them or betray their trust. Which is true of pretty much every type.
(4) Have a sense of humor. I have no idea where the stereotype of them being humorless came from because the ones I've known have always had an incredible sense of humor. It's often dry and witty rather than loud and boisterous, but I prefer the former over the latter anyway.
(5) Be honorable. They tend to value duty and honor above all else. They respect other people's differences if said people conduct themselves with integrity.
(6) Don't overreact. Try to stay calm and rational, even in an argument with them where your emotions might be running high. If you do that, they're very open to hearing opposing points of view. If you become overly emotional while arguing a point, or your logic becomes disjointed, or you become disrespectful of them, then you've lost them. The best way to get an STJ to see your point of view is to ask them questions whose answers will lead them to your perspective. They may not end up agreeing with you (and who cares if they do? -- it's about reaching a mutual understanding, not necessarily agreement) but they'll at least see how you arrived at your conclusion, and if they can see the rationale of something, they can respect it. But you have to reciprocate that understanding and respect.
(7) Don't press them to "talk" about their feelings. Talking is not their primary mode of communication. They prefer to communicate through action and body language, not words. Don't accuse them of being uncommunicative simply because their preferred mode of communication is non-verbal. Words are only one aspect of communication, and they're not for everybody, so learn how to "listen" to what their actions and body language are saying. I tend to find actions more trustworthy than words anyway.
(8) Make sure they know they're appreciated in all they do (and the healthy ones generally do a great deal for others, quietly and constantly and without complaint), but don't "gush" over it. A simple acknowledgement that something they've done is appreciated will suffice.

That's my two cents, for what they're worth. I hope it helps.

[teddy564339]

I made this thread a while back, and it gave some general tips for getting along with each temperament. As you can see from the responses, many PerC users had a problem with it, but mainly that was because they thought the idea of the temperaments was too broad to come up with any tips that would work for all of the people of a temperament.

Tips for Getting Along with Each Temperament


To a degree, they're right, since there's going to be some variation between people of the different SJ types. However, I think Christie42476 gave a lot of good general pointers.


In general, SJs like to have things organized and planned out. They hate sudden last minute changes. They want to know they can rely on people to do what they say they're going to do when they say they're going to do it. They want to know what they can expect from people and that this is not going to change from day to day.


They also want to directly see the importance in a topic. SJs can certainly think about abstract topics, but they want to be able to see their practical importance, often how it relates to their day-to-day lives. If it's a topic that doesn't seem to fit in with what they see in front of them, they'll often feel like there are more important things to discuss. So finding a way to tie a topic in to an SJs life is usually a good way to get their attention on it.


I've also noticed that Ns and Ss have a tough time communicating sometimes because Ns make a lot of little intuitive jumps that Ss don't see immediately. I think you have to be very clear and detailed when communicating with SJs, even though it's probably tiring and a pain for you to do so. If you don't, you'll often end up having a lot of things in your head (that you didn't say) that the SJ didn't understand, since you never explicitly stated it. You're so used to using your intuition to do this that it comes naturally to you; SJs often need things spelled out more clearly because we like to have all of the details laid out before we can move on.


As always, these are just my general impressions...there's always going to be some variation between different SJs.

[Devalight]

I'll be very interested to hear the SJ perspective on this. I don't know if I've ever known any SFJ's, but I do have some experience with STJs, and that has always been:

(1) They want you to say what you mean and mean what you say. Don't hedge or equivocate or BS them. Don't expect them to magically know what you're thinking -- be upfront about it. Because they will be upfront with you, and they expect the same in return.

Yes, I would rather have the truth. Please give it to me straight. It may hurt, but don't do a hiding thing behind my back and let me discover it from someone else.

2) They want whatever you say to have some kind of point, purpose, or relevance. If they respect you and enjoy your company, they can indulge any need you have for a random, abstract kind of conversation and offer some fascinating insights into the subject, but it's not something they generally like to do, overall. They dislike wasting time -- they'd rather be doing than talking. The ones I know are "work hard, play hard" types.

Depends on the subject. If it's something I am very interested in, do all the speculation and theorization you like. I would be fascinated. If its a task you want me to do, give me the short version, please.

(3) Do not deceive them or betray their trust. Which is true of pretty much every type.

Yes.

(4) Have a sense of humor. I have no idea where the stereotype of them being humorless came from because the ones I've known have always had an incredible sense of humor. It's often dry and witty rather than loud and boisterous, but I prefer the former over the latter anyway.

I love people who can make me laugh. A sense of humor goes a long way with me. However, I don't like the person who makes a big joke about everything. My view of life is fundamentally serious.

(5) Be honorable. They tend to value duty and honor above all else. They respect other people's differences if said people conduct themselves with integrity.

Yes, I lose respect for people who have no honor or integrity fairly quickly. They are unlikely to know this, but later it might enter into my decision to drop them as a person I want to be around. Then they are shocked one day when I hang up the phone on them or something.

(6) Don't overreact. ....

Yes. Don't turn into a sloppy emotional mess. I shut down on people who do that, and go into a defense mode. I may sit there and appear like I am listening, but I don't hear a word you say after you lose it. You might as well leave and come back some other time when you can get yourself together.

(7) Don't press them to "talk" about their feelings. Talking is not their primary mode of communication. They prefer to communicate through action and body language, not words.

Talk can be a way, but it is best not ordered up at that moment. In other words, I would often like to say "Let's get back to that later". I must have time to think about it first.

(8) Make sure they know they're appreciated in all they do (and the healthy ones generally do a great deal for others, quietly and constantly and without complaint), but don't "gush" over it. A simple acknowledgement that something they've done is appreciated will suffice.

We can get along without it, but it sure would be nice occasionally. Yes.

[Owfin]

I suspect you want an answer in regards to the Keirsey temperament SJ. I, unfortunately, am a Keirsey NT (and love sharing random meta insights) so I can't help ya there. What follows will probably not be using the same definition for SJ as you are so won't apply to your situation, but I'll post it anyways:

The only SJs who are fairly similar to each other are ISTJs and ISFJs, sharing dominant Si. ESFJs and ESTJs are basically opposites.

And individual members of a type don't really have a consistent list of desires, the only guide you really have is generally avoiding the inferior function (i.e. don't try to object with how you personally feel about an issue to an ESTJ).

[snowbell]

I suspect you want an answer in regards to the Keirsey temperament SJ. I, unfortunately, am a Keirsey NT (and love sharing random meta insights) so I can't help ya there. What follows will probably not be using the same definition for SJ as you are so won't apply to your situation, but I'll post it anyways:

The only SJs who are fairly similar to each other are ISTJs and ISFJs, sharing dominant Si. ESFJs and ESTJs are basically opposites.

And individual members of a type don't really have a consistent list of desires, the only guide you really have is generally avoiding the inferior function (i.e. don't try to object with how you personally feel about an issue to an ESTJ).

*Is confused*. Your profile thingy thing thing says ISTJ - how does that make you an NT?

[Owfin]

*Is confused*. Your profile thingy thing thing says ISTJ - how does that make you an NT?

I am a Si dominant who perfers sensing, so I do get the label ISTJ in MBTI shorthand, but I do not consider Keirsey's temperament theory to have anything to do with it (Myer's Briggs never referenced him). He unfortunately decided to use MBTI labels for his theory, causing annoying confusion with the original theory. I am not a Guardian/"SJ" by his definitions, but I am a Si dominant by Jung's. The only reason why I used a Myer's Briggs label myself (despite not using the J/P axis) is because it's the most easily understood way on the forum to convey "Si dominant with T auxiliary"; if there were a short method that didn't use her labels, I would make use of it.

[snowbell]

I am a Si dominant who perfers sensing, so I do get the label ISTJ in MBTI shorthand, but I do not consider Keirsey's temperament theory to have anything to do with it (Myer's Briggs never referenced him). He unfortunately decided to use MBTI labels for his theory, causing annoying confusion with the original theory. I am not a Guardian/"SJ" by his definitions, but I am a Si dominant by Jung's. The only reason why I used a Myer's Briggs label myself (despite not using the J/P axis) is because it's the most easily understood way on the forum to convey "Si dominant with T auxiliary"; if there were a short method that didn't use her labels, I would make use of it.

Thanks for the explanation .

It seems to have been popular to hitch on MBTI and distort it (this being an example, and Socionics (notation-wise) being the other)

So it's only according to Kiersey that NFs, SJs, NTs, and SPs are similar, not according to the actual MBTI? Is there any such grouping? And where can I find out more?

[Julia Bell]

Thanks for the explanation .

It seems to have been popular to hitch on MBTI and distort it (this being an example, and Socionics (notation-wise) being the other)

So it's only according to Kiersey that NFs, SJs, NTs, and SPs are similar, not according to the actual MBTI? Is there any such grouping? And where can I find out more?

Haha, pretty much, actually. ^_^ For instance, INFJ is ENFP's completely opposite in every way, shape, and form. INFJ is ENFP's shadow functions. and ENFP is INFJ's shadow functions. So even though they are both NFs, they are wwwaaayy different in their function order. ENFJ and INFJ have much in common and INFP and ENFP have much in common. But yeah, despite the fact that they're all NFs, that doesn't mean they are necessarily similar. In fact, ENFPs share more in common with ESFPs than with ENFJs. ;) In the same way INFPs share more in common with ISFPs - you both lead with Fi. You'll find you're completely different in function order when you look at ENFJ.

That's why you'll see many people around here bashing Keirsey. It's just completely different than MBTI or Jung, really. And unfortunately, he's a big reason for a lot of the stereotyping that happens in the site. Which is why he is a bit disliked. I don't find too much problem with him so long as he is treated separately.

You can find out more by getting into cognitive functions. Those really helped me. Basically, you'll find that you are more similar to whoever has the most similar function order.

[snowbell]

Haha, pretty much, actually. ^_^ For instance, INFJ is ENFP's completely opposite in every way, shape, and form. INFJ is ENFP's shadow functions. and ENFP is INFJ's shadow functions. So even though they are both NFs, they are wwwaaayy different in their function order. ENFJ and INFJ have much in common and INFP and ENFP have much in common. But yeah, despite the fact that they're all NFs, that doesn't mean they are necessarily similar. In fact, ENFPs share more in common with ESFPs than with ENFJs. ;) In the same way INFPs share more in common with ISFPs - you both lead with Fi. You'll find you're completely different in function order when you look at ENFJ.

That's why you'll see many people around here bashing Keirsey. It's just completely different than MBTI or Jung, really. And unfortunately, he's a big reason for a lot of the stereotyping that happens in the site. Which is why he is a bit disliked. I don't find too much problem with him so long as he is treated separately.

You can find out more by getting into cognitive functions. Those really helped me. Basically, you'll find that you are more similar to whoever has the most similar function order.

Thanks for that . I have been looking into the functions themselves to try and gain a bit more clarity and for now it seems to explain a lot of things better (where things start to get confusing that is).

Also, I like your signature .