Feminism... For... or Against?

Originally Posted by Erbse

What is your point even?

My point is that a lot of men, once married, will allow the marriage to sink into a mundane relationship where the societal expectations and gender roles will be passively played out over the course of many years.

You even admitted to people choosing their demise. If they chose it, they also, at all times, had the option of canceling it and move on. Individual freedom / responsibility.

When did I admit this?

Because, yes, they are. If you sell yourself, your values or what defines you for money, it yet again was your choice to do so. It makes your integrity questionable in the first place, if there ever was any.

If anything you appear to have repeatedly stripped women completely of individual freedom of choice and responsibility, as if it was men's responsibility that women should be well. That's inevitably more condescending than people plainly saying it's women's fault to begin with for not taking charge of their own well-being.

I'm not saying that at all. What I am saying is that people often respond to societal pressures. It's not the responsibility of either sex to ensure the wellness of the other, but neither should both sexes cause illness for the other.

Feminism, technically, is striving for gender equality.

Practically it seems like whining. I'm in a "Women in Politics" class and I hate it. We read articles by people who use grant money to scrape the bottom of the barrel in search of something to be victimized over. Instead of doing anything, like... proving yourself in the real world, it seems a lot of these women are content to be unhappy.

Also, never before have I felt so socially marginalized and so isolated. Over and over, my characteristics are referred to as "masculine," and it's apparently a result of me trying to fit in or be manly due to society's "overwhelming patriarchy." It can't just be who I am. No man ever made me feel like I'm doing it wrong.

Tina Fey succinctly sums up my feelings on the issue, "Don’t waste your energy trying to educate or change opinions; go over, under, through, and opinions will change organically when you’re the boss. Or they won’t. Who cares? Do your thing, and don’t care if they like it.”

@adverseaffects
I'll answer with these definitions in mind

The mirriam webster definition of feminism is posted somewhere in this thread cut and paste along the lines of

1. goal of social, political, and economic equality between the sexes

wonderful

2. activism on the behalf of women's issues

vague
- if it's applicable, cool. for instance, support for women who are rape victims, women being sexually harrassed as work etc (though I believe their should be men's groups for these things as well
- however, 80%+ of the time though it doesn't seem like it is. the vast majority of women in the United States (I can't speak for other countries) are not victims, not suffering from abusive relationships, treated fine at work and all of them are able to vote, run for office, start businesses etc. again, if you are supporting a woman suffering from any of these things, wonderful, but the vast majority of the time (again, in the United States) it just sounds like hot air to me

now that that's over, my criticism of "pop culture feminism"

- it is often used as an excuse to be narcissistic and arrogant "I'm not being a narcissist, I'm a feminist"
- a sizable percentage of self proclaimed "feminists" have contrived, fake personalities that are deliberately overly masculine and harsh. part of being empowered as a woman is taking pride in your natural feminine qualities (they will be different for every woman. I'm not suggesting that everyone woman is like Joan Harris from Mad Men on the inside)
- accusing someone of being sexist because they didn't give you what you want before asking yourself "was I qualified to begin with" is childish. for instance, if someone is hiring a security force and you are a slender built women, no, they are probably not going to hire you over the 6 ft 3 200 pound male who looks intimidating and therefore better at deterring potential threats.
- pop feminism refuses to except that there are differences between men and women psychologically. for instance:

• men tend to be more competitive and focused; women tend to be more cooperative and empathetic (I am talking about on average here. I speak as an gay ENFP male who is plenty empathetic and cooperative and neither competitive nor extremely focused)
• women have hormonal changes due to their monthly cycle that can (and often do) effect their personalities and thought processes; men do not
• women and men on average are of about equal intelligence; however, there are more men on the extremes of the spectrum (very dim witted or genius) whereas the scores of women tend to be more in the middle.
• women (on average) are attracted to power, confidence, status and wealth; men (on average) are attracted to beauty, youth and nurturing personalities (this has been scientifically validated in several instances) that said, most of both genders will lie and say that they aren't.
• women have more connections between the left and right hemisphere, but men's brains on average are a tad bigger. because of this, women (on average) tend to be better as using both hemispheres at once while men (on average) are better at intense work focusing on one hemisphere of the brain
• women are naturally geared to be nurturing and protective of children. anyone who would deny this needs to study biology.

equality =/= identical

EDIT: a few more points related to pop culture feminism
- self proclaimed "feminists" are often the main reason why sexual discrimination continues (classic chicken and the egg). if I believed that 100% of women were like the stereo typically portrayed feminist, I would probably be against many women's rights issues (fortunately I know there are plenty of women who aren't LOL)
- self proclaimed feminists are also often the main drivers of "it's socially acceptable for women to do XYZ, but not men"...same side of the same coin. the only way we can have equality is for people to stop defining themselves by their race/gender and to stop looking to social norms to run their lives altogether the core issue here is NOT race, gender, sexual orientation or whatever other diverse biological predisposition one can come up with. the core issue is that people look towards what is socially acceptable to dictate their moral compass and decision making processes. this is why the Mayans sacrificed children, Arabian culture oppresses women, domestic violence is an epidemic in the US and India still follows a caste system. the answer to all of this is to promote personal responsibility, independent thinking and a willingness to agree/disagree as one sees fit

Originally Posted by skycloud86

You seem to be rather serious for someone posting satire.

And 2 + 2= 4.
I already stated I was serious.
With a sprinkle of satire.

Why should they stop there?

Because it is okay to be prejudicial, so long as you ostracize people for other reasons.
"I dislike this guy because he is [interchangeable diatribe]. It is only a coincidence that he is "black."

This mostly comes from the politically correct crowd, too.
And they're the only ones who can't see it.

How are you defining equal, and how do you know everyone doesn't want to be equal, including all minority groups?

Only when we quit breaking people down into tiny groups will we ever be truly "equal."

Which is why they like to portray feminists as all being part of the extremist fringes of feminism.

The media doesn't need to lift a finger--Feminists humiliate themselves.

From the one's I have personally met, they are severely lacking in the self-awareness and personal accountability department. They automatically paste you with ridiculous label if you don't agree with the tenets of their pitiful "cult." (Sound familiar?)

From my experience, very few feminists are...stable. Or of notable moral character, for that matter.

Yes, and they don't seem to be locating any male bashing.

Because you don't get it. It's in the attitude, not the words.

I've never seen such frustrated and bitter men project their own shortcomings so fervently and consistently on others with so little self-awareness.

Originally Posted by Swordsman of Mana

@adverseaffects
- however, 80%+ of the time though it doesn't seem like it is.

80% huh...... where'd you get that statistic, you talk to every single feminist in the world? Perhaps since you don't seem to identify as a feminst, and many other non-feminists posters on the board, the "feminsts" you hear from are only the most radical, vocal, or distasteful to your sensibilities because you don't seek out the more moderate, reasonable feminists who don't feel the need to shove that view in everyone's face? Food for thought.

- a sizable percentage of self proclaimed "feminists" have contrived, fake personalities that are deliberately overly masculine and harsh. part of being empowered as a woman is taking pride in your natural feminine qualities (they will be different for every woman. I'm not suggesting that everyone woman is like Joan Harris from Mad Men on the inside)

This reminds me of something that happened to me.
I used to debate. I was good, I won quite often. Anyways, at one tournament I was up for quarterfinals and the guy was really aggressive. he'd rev up his voice and pull everyone in with his charisma, similar to someone on Fox News haha, the anger/passion in your voice over-rides what you are actually saying.
It's the first speech, I haven't even read my case yet, and he's already referring to me as "you!" and "my opponenet!" is he being a dick? no. It's a strategy to amp up the ethos of his case, to show conviction and make it a justice vs. non-justice issue that oculd help him win. It also serves to fluster and bully the opponent into submission, and I see it happen all the time in debate.
So it's my turn for cross ex and he cuts off all my points, he keeps trying to talk over me. I ask him a question, he leads away from it and tries to "fillibuster" my time by taking me on long tangents that do not address my question, and when I say, Please answer the question or re-phrase it, he yells along the lines of I am entitled to speak blah blah don't interrupt me ma'am. Anyways, so after I cross examine him, it's my turn to read my case and my voice just comes out of me, contained, cool, but burning and angry and direct. I move fast, direct, and I kind of slaughter him, haha, I address all his ad hominem's, false correlations, generalizations, and failed manipulation attempts and address his false "you" and lay out my case so clearly to the judges there's no way he can manipulate them into mis-understanding it.
Then he cross examines me, and he asks me leading questions, so in order to clearly make my point and not get trapped I have to phrase it carefully, and as I try to do so he's alllll over it, he cuts me off and goes "Answer the question please!" I'm 5'2" in a dress and he has this huge booming voice and it a really tall guy, and his ethos is pretty powerful. So this tough part of my just comes out, I don't lash out or yell, I remain collected, reasonable, realistic, and direct, and that's powerful, but I'm also NOT playing nice, I am direct and fast and brutally honest, my voice is not loud but it is harsh and angry with intensity. (I love the feeling when that gets pulled out of me...)
anyways, so I win 3-0 by refusing to play by his terms and not be dominated or let him manipulate the playing field. In order to do that, I had to stand up and talk like a man talks. I pushed back.
And even though I won 3-0, the judge tells me at the end, "Um, in the future ,try not to be so... bitchy. I know you're just passionate and direct, and guys can do it but when girls do it it doens't look nice."

My point being, sometimes that supposed "fake persona" isn't a fake persona, it's who a girl would be if she was truly allowed to speak her piece, if she were allowed to be as aggresive or honest as she wanted to, if she were allowed to fight like she were an equal, instead of encouraged to concede. What you just descibred feels like a double edges sword to me. So if I speak up for myself and come off as "harsh", it's because I'm pretending to be like a man and putting on a persona. But why are those male qualities? Why can't I be angry, direct, honest, smart, intelligent, and talk over assholes who need to be put in their place? I feel it inside me. But to be feminie, I have to hold it inside and give him a brownie and say, "I guess you have a point sweetie, but here's what I'm thinking too." That isn't true to my nature. That's not what I think or feel. But I've learned to do it, because as a woman, it gets me better results.

What you're describing isn't being more true to your womenself, it's being more true to societal gender expectations.

- accusing someone of being sexist because they didn't give you what you want before asking yourself "was I qualified to begin with" is childish. for instance, if someone is hiring a security force and you are a slender built women, no, they are probably not going to hire you over the 6 ft 3 200 pound male who looks intimidating and therefore better at deterring potential threats.
- pop feminism refuses to except that there are differences between men and women psychologically. for instance:

• men tend to be more competitive and focused; women tend to be more cooperative and empathetic (I am talking about on average here. I speak as an gay ENFP male who is plenty empathetic and cooperative and neither competitive nor extremely focused)
• women have hormonal changes due to their monthly cycle that can (and often do) effect their personalities and thought processes; men do not
• women and men on average are of about equal intelligence; however, there are more men on the extremes of the spectrum (very dim witted or genius) whereas the scores of women tend to be more in the middle.
• women (on average) are attracted to power, confidence, status and wealth; men (on average) are attracted to beauty, youth and nurturing personalities (this has been scientifically validated in several instances) that said, most of both genders will lie and say that they aren't.
• women have more connections between the left and right hemisphere, but men's brains on average are a tad bigger. because of this, women (on average) tend to be better as using both hemispheres at once while men (on average) are better at intense work focusing on one hemisphere of the brain
• women are naturally geared to be nurturing and protective of children. anyone who would deny this needs to study biology.

equality =/= identical

I agree equality does not mean identical, but the one I bolded can be both biological OR learned. Of course I recognize you're talking to tendencies, so you're correct, Of course women TEND to be this way, but every person has these perscribed "masculine" and "feminine" qualities in each. I don't think feminsts pretend men and women are the same, but they do refuse to be forced to confrom to a gender identity that is not one size fits all. Maybe my little story which is a relatively small example, illustrates one of the ways women feel forces to be "nuturing sweet compassionate concilliatory" when that isn't what they want?
I like the part about male brain size and female brain connections, I actually didn't know that.

Thanks for that, guy.

Women are perpetual victims who shouldn't be held accountable and men are naturally predators who want all women in the kitchen, barefoot and preggers.

I'm glad you aided me in figuring it all out.

Originally Posted by Duck_of_Death

Because you don't get it. It's in the attitude, not the words.

The attitude is probably due to anger or say, passion, conviction, and sureness of the point of view and anger that you are so unwilling to listen to it.

it has nothing to do with hating men.

It has everything to do with hating not being heard and hvaing people put motivations you never said onto your perfectly valid, intellgient, reasonable points due to inborn prejudices or connotations the other person comes into the discussion with.

This is what I see you doing, feminist says X, you say, But you say, "don't really mean X, alook at how worked up you are, you hate men and you want things to be given to you for free and you're blaming all your problems on me!" and the feminist gets angrier and angrier saying, "I said X, I meant X, I keep saying X, Why won't you listen to what I'm saying?? What does all this other stuff have to do with anything?"

Why don't you stop looking with prejudices you already hold and listen to the words people are actually putting out?

@adverseaffects
I think the only thing we really disagree on is the % of real feminists vs pop culture/socially acceptable "feminists" who use feminism as an excuse to complain, hate on men, wallow in a "woe is me" complex" and give themselves a false sense of superiority. I think that the ratio of the latter to the former is very high; you seem not to think so.
real feminist (and whatever one calls their male equivalent) have my full support, but I think that unfortunately they are not as common as you believe
PS: I think you will agree with my last edit

Originally Posted by fievre

Tina Fey succinctly sums up my feelings on the issue, "Don’t waste your energy trying to educate or change opinions; go over, under, through, and opinions will change organically when you’re the boss. Or they won’t. Who cares? Do your thing, and don’t care if they like it.”

I really like this and from my little experience have seen it's true.