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Madonna-Whore Complex

2K views 10 replies 10 participants last post by  cyamitide 
#1 ·
I've just come across this Wikipedia article. Turns out this perfectly describe my case:
For this reason, in the mind of the sufferer, love and sex cannot be mixed. The man is therefore reluctant to have sexual relations with his wife for, according to his unconscious mind, this would be incest. He will reserve sexuality for "bad" or "dirty" women, and will not develop "normal" feelings of love in these sexual relationships. This introduces a dilemma where a man may feel unable to love any woman who can satisfy him sexually and is unable to be sexually satisfied by any woman whom he can love.
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I'm very sexually attracted to women Im not in a relationship with, but I have big trouble being sexually attracted to women I'm in love with because unconsciously, I idealize them.
Even while masturbating, just the thinking about that long-term woman is a turn-off while thinking about women my fuckd up unconscious didn't put in the "Saint category" is very arousing.

I remember I have thought about that years ago, when I told a female friend that I think I have a problem in that I can't be sexually aroused by girls I'm in love with, to what she replied "But that's perfectly normal". So I didn't give a second thought to that issue till I found out it's actually a complex.

Point is, I tried to google the possibility of a cure/treatment but I found nothing interesting. But I'm quite convinced there is a solution.

Hence this thread. What I want to discuss are some angles from which the problem could be attacked. I somehow got the hunch that overcoming that obstacle would be very life-rewarding.

First and foremost, I'd like to state that I strongly disagree with the Freudian psychology take on that:
According to Freudian psychology, this complex often develops when the sufferer is raised by a cold and distant mother. Such a man will often court someone with qualities of his mother, hoping to fulfill a need for intimacy unmet in childhood. Often, the wife begins to be seen as mother to the husband—a "Madonna" figure—and thus not a possible object of sexual attraction.
I had a very loving and nurturing mother. In fact, I think having a nurturing, loving "perfect" mother makes it even more likely to have that problem, as one would end up having a very idealized view of his mother, a view that he'd try to replicate in his long-term relationships.

I've come to realize that the complex is simply a distortion of reality. A kind of black-or-white thinking in which women are either 1) Saints 2) Whores but can't be both. Intellectually, I figured that way of thinking to be false, that a woman ca be both nurturing and naughty. But my unconscious doesn't seem to realize that :dry:.

So the question is, how does one deal with unconscious distortions of reality like that? I know that most of the time, those kind of issues are related to experiences from the past but I can't think of nothing right now.

Any ideas on how to overcome the problem are welcome. Also any similar experiences are welcome. But please refrain from posting if you're just going to advise me to "seek professional help" I've already thought about that.
 
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#2 ·
buddy it's as simple as this:

ANXIETY DOES CAUSE OR GREATLY INCREASE AROUSAL

Despite idiotic mainstream belief the two can and do in fact exist at the same time, there not two opposing forces that cancel each other out or are mutually exclusive, like fire and water, that can;t exist at the same place at the same time.

Let me ask you this, how can it honestly be exciting to be in a cage with a great white shark half a metre away, to sky dive, to bunjee jump. Because there's anxiety, there's fear, there's adrenalin, it heightens the body's senses because you don't know what to except and anything can happen.

Hence why you find girls your personal psyche puts out of the "saint category" atttractive, at least physically.

For crying out loud some homophobic straight guys get turned on by gay porn because of the anxiety. The fearful not the hateful ones.

People have fetishes, enjoy BDSM and other paraphillia because of their "taboo" nature.

Whenever we get confronted by stimuli that may ultimately be deemed dangerous, socially taboo or forbidden, it's not unusual to experience an adrenaline rush from the anxiety it produces which can seem exciting at least in the physical sense.

Idealising a woman because she has all the right features as in morally or socially acceptable takes away that adrenaline rush because there is nothing to be anxious about around her.

Remeber anxiety is a flight-fight response inheritted from our ancestors which enabled them to distinguish dangers from non dangers by heightening the body's psychological and phsyiological senses which is what you seem to be enjoying, so that we could prepare an appropriate response which guarantees or at least maximises our chances of survival.

Comfortability and idealisation removes such fearfulness and provides less reason for the mind or body become "excited" in that way.

Hope that helps.
 
#3 ·
I haven't read much or know much about this theory, but heard of something similar, a concept called "splitting," not being able to integrate both aspects (dualities) and being okay with it. In this case, not feeling sexually attracted to the person who is considered a "good girl" due to the polarizing nature of the relationship.

How to overcome this situation? Depends. Sometimes, exploring the root for when/how this developed at an early age can help to gauge a solution by exploring possible unconscious tendencies.

Other times, it could be that certain traits of the good-girl complex may not be as challenging. The act of the sexual desire would be in that scenario, to challenge and to conquer the forbidden or unknown (not so safe). Because the good girl is safe, all bets are off, and that desire is satiated, whereas the desire for the bad girl is not. This becomes an internal idealized sense of self. Idealizing the good girl makes one feel guilty about having thoughts of sexual pleasures? Idk. Sorry if this is muddled.

IRL, both good/bad (positive/negative) traits exist in anybody. We are not one or the other. The key is to feel turned on by someone who can challenge us in some other way (intellectually) and keep us interested (physically) in erotic ways. It could simply be a matter of running into that person who you feel a balance of both?
 
#4 ·
Well, that's an interesting problem you have there.

What was your upbringing like when it came to sex? Were you taught that it's something dirty?

To me it seems like you have issues with sex itself. Sex without emotional connection is a superficial, even immature version of sex. It's easier to deal with than sex with emotions. Kids often see porn and of course fantasize before they are truly ready for sexual relationship. It's about the intensity of the experience.

I don't really know how you can overcome this kind of thinking. Maybe one way would be to associate purity to sexuality. Rather than seeing sexual women as "naughty" you could view that part as a natural extension of their nurturing side. Think of the kind of pagan "Earth Mother" type that is all about fertility and life power. Or some sort of goddess like Venus. That way you could keep idealizing her, in fact I've seen this happen many times in everything from erotic literature to BDSM. Of course idealizing can go to far. We are all people in the end and at some point if you want to have healthy relationships with women you need to understand that we are just humans.
 
#5 ·
I was also going to say this may be related to how you view sex.

If you unconsciously view sex as something dirty or taboo, then you may not feel able to engage in it with a woman you respect, but only with women you view as objects (existing purely as sexual beings for your pleasure, not worthy of anything more).

Your own mother-theory may be part of it also, except I might extend it a bit by asking what other women in your life did you have a great respect for growing up, before you reached puberty especially? If the only woman you learned to respect on a high level was your mom, then you may associate all women you respect as a mother-type. This can be egged on by the way you view sex (a woman you respect cannot be a sex object, just as your mother cannot be). How did the males around you growing up speak of & treat women they were not related to? Did you see them show respect for attractive women without objectifying them, or did they tend to view women as sex objects or sister/mother types also? Whether we like to admit it or not, the views of those around us growing up can shape our own.

Anyhow, congrats on being self-aware enough to identify this in yourself, recognizing it's a problem, and seeking to fix it. You might be miles ahead of some people in that regard.

I can't think of any quick fix or sure fire solution. I know I have worked to correct negative views (in my case, social anxiety) by replacing the destructive thoughts as they pop up with positive ones. Eventually, it does seem to sink into the unconscious and alter the root attitude.
 
#6 ·
I personally don't appreciate it when someone is being called negative meaning names; Also why does this information benefit you? Even if she is, or if she isn't, so what?
 
#7 ·
I’m the same way man, I’m actually looking for a “cure” and that’s how I ended up here.

First of all, I don’t think our mothers had anything to do with it because my mother and your mother are complete opposites yet your issue is exactly the same as mine.

Yes, my mother was a little cold and distant like Freud said but he’s still wrong (at least in my case) because the “good girls” I fall in love with are nothing like my mother. The “bad girls” aren’t either so I simply avoid distant/cold types regardless of their Madonna/whore status. Period.

Second of all, I don’t agree with the “anxiety” theory of the second post because anxiety kills my libido, if I’m anxious I can’t get it up (it’s called performance anxiety). I like “bad girls” for sex not because they make me anxious; I like them because they make me horny: you can totally tell they are into sex :wink:

Did you see that movie called “The black swan”? If you haven’t go rent it. Without spoiling it too much: she’s a ballet dancer and his teacher insists she has to be sexier because she’s too much of a “white swan”. He even asks her male friend “would you fuck her?” .....“I’ll take that as a no”.

Yes, it could be the way we view sex like other posters said. Maybe we see it as something naughy/dirty…. But that’s where all the fun is, isn't it? … Like Woody Allen said: Sex is dirty only if done correctly.
 
#8 ·
Anyway, I found no cure but I do have an idea:

1. Everybody says there’s nothing wrong with a girl being sexually confident, sex is natural, sex is good, jara jara.

2. Find yourself a good girl, someone who would fall into the Madonna category. Of course she won’t be a saint; she just has to fall into that category in your mind.

3. Help her develop her sexuality!!! change her ways!! Almost like “perverting” her. Again there’s nothing wrong with this, read point 1 again. You could start slow; you can see her change from a white swan to a black swan but just for you (assuming she’s faithful). Make sure she knows how sexy you find her, if she's a white swan, she probably doesn't get that a lot (she probably gets told how pretty she is and that's it)

4. If it works, marry her, you won't find anything better.

5. If it doesn't work, break up with her (not out of cruelty, out of respect for both of you). Then try again.

Do you catch my drift? Easier said than done I know. But it’s the only solution I can think of.

Well not really, there’s a second possibility: You could try settling for a girl that falls into the “whore” category and work on yourself, convince yourself she’s not a whore and that maybe she’s just misunderstood, that she's just a victim of the circumstances, etc.... If you go this route, keep in mind I did this for 5 years with my ex and it ended horribly so I can’t recommend it.
 
#9 ·
Did you grew up in a very strict, religious household? One that told you that sex is a horrible thing unless it's done for reproductive circumstances? If so, talk to those who hold a more free opinion of sex. They'll tell you that no, there's nothing wrong with sex as a recreational activity. Obviously somebody who uses sex in a bad way (Rapes others, very promiscuous lifestyle, dishonesty, infidelity, using it as a social leverage or to hurt somebody else, etc.) are the ones who you should stay away from... But those who do it because they love the person and want to show that to them sexually, well, they're people. With feelings.

Good luck.
 
#10 ·
So the question is, how does one deal with unconscious distortions of reality like that?
Transforming an unconscious reality is very very difficult... especially one that's solidly lodged there, only to be discovered in adulthood.

I suppose the first advantage you have is that you've identified it.

There are two basic kinds of sex, and from what you've described, you've only uncovered one type... the lower type of material experience... it's really the negative type of sex. It's the kind a lot of guys experience most of the time...

I only say this because on a couple of occasions, I experienced the other type of sex... the positive variant which I didn't realize existed until I was experiencing it. It's the type women romanticize about as some type of spiritual experience. That sort of sex can't be shared with a woman you don't love and respect.... but I'll admit, it's hard to find, even within the confines of a relationship.

I'll tell you why too,

A) Yes, idealizing our mothers probably affects it somehow... we don't look at our mothers as sex objects so when we meet a great woman who reminds us of our mothers, a woman that we really love, well sex is the last thing on our minds... since we really do look at them as if they're a female family member of ours.

B) Society tells us what is sexy... the whorish women plastered over television... even if the women aren't really whores, they're representing sex on television in a cheap way... guys get the eye-candy and the arousal from it without the prerequisite relationship bonding. It conditions us toward the lower-nature of sex, where it's impersonal and a very material experience as opposed to something intermingled with love.

Societal conditioning, so don't blame yourself... just accept and believe its something you can overcome. Tell yourself you've already overcome this and actualize it as a part of yourself... if anorexic people can convince themselves they're fat, you can convince yourself you're past this difficulty.

It's a trick I've learned from someone very wise... don't look at the obstacle in front of you as if you need to overcome it... that just turns it into a mountain... it's behind you and you've already beaten it.
 
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