[teddy564339]

Sorry if this has already been asked...I searched and couldn't find any threads about it.




As a high school math teacher, even though I've never (and don't know if I ever will) used type to truly change how I teach, I still find myself wondering about how it affects people. For example, learning about the S/N difference I think made me think that how different people can find certain things easier or more difficult to understand.


So I'm very curious how the different NT types view this. Now, I'm starting to come to the belief that type may not have a strong influence in how much one likes math or understands it. Even if it is a factor, there are certainly plenty of other ones, including environmental exposure to it at different ages. Because I've known people who I've suspected are NT's that were brilliant at math, and others who seem to hate it with a passion.


It's interesting because it seems like there are things about math that would appeal to an NT and things that would not.

On one hand, math in itself is very abstract and theoretical. Even though it can be used for all kinds of practical purposes, in itself that's not what it is. It's almost like science, but about less concrete concepts. This would seem like it would appeal to an NT, who would be better than an S at picturing these concepts. NT's also would appear to be the best out of the temperaments at piecing together all kinds of connections mentally without having to take it one step at a time... they could see a theorem, property or proof and immediately see how it could be applied in a lot of different situations.

On the other hand, a lot the way math is presented in high school is very S in nature, or at least very SJ. This is partly because high school (at least in the US, but probably in a lot of countries) is set up in a very SJ manner in general, and if the majority of the population truly is SJ, then that would partly explain why.

But with math in particular, I think this is the case. In high school, it's very procedural, sequential, concrete and detailed. There is a lot of information, and getting the "right answer" is what's emphasized the most.

But I think the thing is that it seems like it's so rare for someone to truly understand math and be brilliant at it, and it almost seems like those people would be NT's.

So the whole thing is weird to me...I guess I just don't understand what would allow one NT to understand math really well, and what would cause another one to have total trouble with it. Because I see math as being a huge balance of S and N...it's very abstract, theoretical and conceptual, but at the same time it has practical applications, has details that are important, and has a lot of algorithmic procedures.

It almost feels like anything else with S's and N's...that N's come up with the theories and concepts, and S's take care of the details of how to put them in place. But at the same time, don't NT's need to understand those details too, so they can show them to S's?

That's why I'm kind of curious and confused about an NT's take on math. Like I said, I don't know how much of it is type related at all, or if there's a difference in how each of the four NT types view it. Hence, why I'm making this thread.







Like I said, I'm not asking for advice about how to teach math to NT's, since that's really getting into a very blurry realm in regards to my job. But I'm still kind of curious to hear about different NT's experiences with math.

[Shadow Logic]

I've thought about this (well learning in all subjects in general), and understand why you could be confused. From my point of view I think the reason some NT's enjoy math and others don't is how they are being taught. As an INTP once we understand the concept we want to immediately move on to the next thing we do not like to stay on the same subject if we fully understand it's concept. As a teacher I understand you have to teach in a way where the majority of your class can understand what they're doing, so you may repeat yourself in multiple different ways to show the class more then one way of figuring something out. If an INTP already understands it though then it may just annoy them and they want to move on to the next problem to figure it out. They do not like to be kept at a pace for everyone else to learn.

So with all that being said some NTs (such as INTPs, not as a whole but most INTPs I think) may hate the subject because they're going at a pace to slow for them and instead of going ahead they may get distracted with a different subject they like and go more in depth with that subject. Other NTs may enjoy it because its purely theoretical and abstract so they find the interests in going more in depth with the math and trying to create new problems from what they have learned and understood, and even going ahead of the class just to teach themselves more because they want to learn at their own specific pace which is usually much quicker then non-NTs.

[topgun31]

ENTJ. Here's my take.

Growing up, I was very, very good at math. For algebra II in high school, I would finish my homework a month ahead, fall asleep in class, and still pull off with the highest grade...BUT I thought it was pretty boring, so math never sparked my interest past the minimum. That all changed when I took physics in college. I thought that I would hate it. Call me crazy, but physics ended up being one of my favorite subjects. I finally understood why all the math that I learned was important. It gave MEANING to the mundane details of math.

You hit the nail on the head with the SJ/NT difference. The best way to teach an NT is to connect with the bigger picture, the 'why?' behind the mundane details...and reinforce that point constantly. Appeal to their love for theories and the big picture. Give math a PURPOSE.

[goodgracesbadinfluence]

A lot of people I associate with at my college do not like the way math is taught. I know you said you teach high school, but I still think there is a difference.

I had trouble with math in middle school because I never understood why we had to do something... even something so simple and basic as adding/subtracting/whatever the same thing on both sides. When I got into high school, I just accepted that's what you did, so I moved on. But it wasn't until I got into college and started taking higher math courses (I'm a mathematics major) that I realised you do it so you don't change the problem.

A lot of emphasis is placed on doing something because "that's just the way it is" and this description doesn't tend to satisfy me and probably doesn't satisfy a lot of other NTs. I can really only speak for INTPs though, because that's what I am. And a lot of emphasis is placed on showing all your work. Sometimes to me, writing every single tiny step is boring and redundant because I already know what I'm supposed to do... for example, I have no need to write out that 8*4=32; I can do that in my head. I also tend to be able to remember certain problems and refer back to them and notice the pattern and I can come up with an answer instantly and in good confidence that way, but I can't necessarily explain why I got that answer, because once I have the answer, the steps are meaningless to me.

The opposite is also true... if you skip a step that I really need, I get confused (obviously) and then I try to figure it out on my own. I employ multiple techniques until I can find the answer you got... which may/may not be the right one. I think most NTs would attempt to figure the problem out on their own first before asking for help.

I think NTs tend to be good at math because we are more pattern-oriented, system-oriented, and have no problem with theoretical things. But I wouldn't call myself brilliant at math because a lot of math teachers (and I'm not saying you do this) are so accustomed to the material that they don't understand how someone could have trouble with it, which makes a lot of people reluctant to ask for help. And chances are, if you're an NT and you struggle with math, you don't struggle with all aspects of it. When something comes up that I don't understand, mentally I'm like, "Ugh, why can't I do this?" And it's never completely over my head, either. I can always grasp at the material, and I usually understand it when I watch someone else do it, but when it's time for me to do it myself, I get kind of lost.

Another thing I might add (I know this is getting long, and I'm not even really sure if I'm helping you at all) is that I am terrible at practical math. Don't give me word problems, don't ask me how many miles you can travel in 4 minutes if you're going 130mph, don't ever ask me anything practical. But if you want the derivative of something, yeah, go ahead, ask, it's fun and infinitely easier.

[TheWaffle]

I've always been fairly good at math and, occasionally, even find myself enjoying it. But at school, it's unbearably boring. My geometry teacher now is about sixty years old and doesn't teach very well at all. She rushes through the slide shows for the lesson and is generally unhelpful. I end up teaching myself all the math.

I also skip steps or not show work for problems and lose points. >_>

[Mr.Xl Vii]

As an NT that was good at math, but sort of hated it I can begin to answer your question. As a subject goes, I find math very interesting and it was my best subject all though school, but I hated doing it. Mainly because math class was more about how much homework you did, and about showing every conceivable step, that it became tedious and annoying. I was lucky that I got a lot of NT math teachers and on NF math teacher so they knew where I was coming from with my issues.

More times than not, I was bored. I found it incredibly repetitive, and just for the challenge, I would learn the topic in class and not look over the notes ever again and "wing it" on the tests. Most of my teachers realized that I knew what I was talking about, and that I liked the challenge of solving difficult questions, but it was the structure in itself that annoyed me.

I have an NT friend that doesn't like math at all either, but it's not because he doesn't understand mathematical concepts he's just not the type that enjoys it. He's more the "let's ponder the big picture" type. He doesn't really care about learning the intricacies involved. Personally, the only math levels I enjoyed were the higher levels. Algebra II was fun only because it was easy, but I enjoyed Pre-Cal and Calculus. The only thing that annoyed me about both was the amount work you have to show.

You were right when you said the way math is taught is entirely SJ. Some of the NT types can handle that. I know plenty INTJ and ENTJ types that loved math class for that reason. I being an ENTP enjoyed learning mathematical concepts, but hated implementing them over and over and over again. And the friend I mentioned above was an INTP that hated it in its entirety. I'm not sure if this is prevalent amongst all of each type, but I wouldn't be surprised if it were the case.

When I had other NT teachers they usually would be able to explain the concepts to me in a way that kept me interested, but not every math teacher is an NT so I can easily see how it could bore NTs. Even if the teacher is an NT, I find myself doodling for most of class, talking to my neighbor, or sleeping while I waited for the other students to catch up. School was incredibly boring for me in general, and even topics I found interesting, stopped being interesting very quick because of that.

There's a large possibility that those NTs don't necessarily find math boring, but they're just bored with school in general. That's not to say all NTs are smarter or that other types are necessarily slower, but my NT friends usually picked up new concepts a bit quicker. The other kids usually did better on the tests because they took the time to study and all that, so it balanced out.

[Scruffy]

Math always cramped my style, I was never really bad at it; math was just a chasm of loneliness & suffering, carried on the backs of elder sloths and misfits. Math was best for me when I was shown "why do I care" (topgun's point about bigger picture). The tedium of the details are not worth the reward of completing the problem.

I didn't like following the steps, I'd often try awkward work arounds (some successful, some failure) just to keep myself entertained. My problem forever with math: I don't like how it makes me blank out, if I'm sitting there doing a chain of problems my mind becomes too focused, and does not wander. I lose my imagination.

I love math for what it is, and for what it stands for, just don't make me do it. Showing me the reasoning and why it matters is the only way I'll learn/care/do it. I always enjoyed math quirks as well, on a basic level things like 111x111 ends up with some sort of 123 pattern.

[Tragic]

When learning maths there are many, many ways to understand even the simplest of problems.
For an extremely simple silly example:
a(b+c)=ab + ac

1) Try it with actual numbers, it works!
2) Look at a rectangle, one side of length a, one side of length (b+c), and you see geometrically why it's true.
3) It's an axiom/ it's a definition.
4) It's a theorem, derived from more elementary axioms.

If one person understands a concept one way, and another person understands it another way then one will be "bad" at using it to solve certain problems, and one will be "good". The way people are storing and understanding concepts in their head can make such a difference. From conversations with people I've had about the subject I think this is the main reason some people are good and some people are bad at maths. They can both 'understand' but only from a certain point of view that may not be the most beneficial one for the problem at hand.

[teddy564339]

It's hard for me to respond too much without making a huge, uber long post. There are so many things for me to rant about, many of which aren't necessarily related to type...from the frustrating limitations of the system and my expectations/pressures from my superiors as a teacher to the difficulty of dealing with a huge group of diverse students, not only in them getting along, but all of them learning. It's a tough job for anyone of any type, and I've known teachers of different temperaments that all face a lot of the same challenges.

This can even be shown in this thread, where there are these two different mentalities from two NT's.

You hit the nail on the head with the SJ/NT difference. The best way to teach an NT is to connect with the bigger picture, the 'why?' behind the mundane details...and reinforce that point constantly. Appeal to their love for theories and the big picture. Give math a PURPOSE.

Another thing I might add (I know this is getting long, and I'm not even really sure if I'm helping you at all) is that I am terrible at practical math. Don't give me word problems, don't ask me how many miles you can travel in 4 minutes if you're going 130mph, don't ever ask me anything practical. But if you want the derivative of something, yeah, go ahead, ask, it's fun and infinitely easier.

So I could go on for pages and pages and pages here...but I'll try to just stick to some main points.

I think what bothers me a lot is that when I was teaching a class called Discrete Math, I overall loved it. To me, almost everything in the class was naturally interesting. It was much easier to come up with activities and ideas that kept the interest of a lot of my students...they could see the purpose in pretty much everything we did, from election theory, graph theory to probability. I also taught mostly seniors who were pretty mature, and I felt no pressure to "get them ready" for college or a standardized test.

But I then got transferred to a school I don't like as much and I'm stuck teaching Geometry and Algebra 2. While I like the math, I'm not passionate about it in the same way I was. I've gotten kind of personally selfish in the aspect that what I go for the most is getting most of my students to pass the standardized test...not only because the students need to pass it to pass the class, but also because my principals judge me the most based on that, and keeping my job, preferably with decent classes, is my biggest priority.

So I end up teaching in a pretty SJ manner, because that's easiest for most of my students to understand. Most of my students still like me, and most are just thankful to have a teacher that they can understand. But they also don't like the math much. For a lot of them, that doesn't matter, they just deal with it. But I know a few have a problem...particularly one student who I think might be an ENTP. Now, in all fairness, this student struggles a lot in all of his classes and looks like he's going to have trouble graduating. But I can tell that he's very N-like in the aspect that he's always looking at the big picture and the look future of a problem instead of taking it one step at a time and focusing on the details. I think he'll be ok in the end, but along the way it's tough because in order to pass this test, the details will be important...and he needs it to graduate. But it's kind of frustrating.

He (and a lot of students) are a lot of times asking for the bigger purpose in the math. And with Discrete, it was so easy to point that out. But it's so much tougher with the Algebra. And even though I know the best thing to do would be doing a lot of research and looking into it a whole lot more, but due to my own exhaustion, laziness, and uncertainty about the future of my situation, I haven't and don't. Maybe it's selfish, but it's all I can do to just survive.

Anyway, I'm starting to rant and vent a little, but that's what kind of inspired me to make this thread today.

I've thought about this (well learning in all subjects in general), and understand why you could be confused. From my point of view I think the reason some NT's enjoy math and others don't is how they are being taught. As an INTP once we understand the concept we want to immediately move on to the next thing we do not like to stay on the same subject if we fully understand it's concept. As a teacher I understand you have to teach in a way where the majority of your class can understand what they're doing, so you may repeat yourself in multiple different ways to show the class more then one way of figuring something out. If an INTP already understands it though then it may just annoy them and they want to move on to the next problem to figure it out. They do not like to be kept at a pace for everyone else to learn.

So with all that being said some NTs (such as INTPs, not as a whole but most INTPs I think) may hate the subject because they're going at a pace to slow for them and instead of going ahead they may get distracted with a different subject they like and go more in depth with that subject. Other NTs may enjoy it because its purely theoretical and abstract so they find the interests in going more in depth with the math and trying to create new problems from what they have learned and understood, and even going ahead of the class just to teach themselves more because they want to learn at their own specific pace which is usually much quicker then non-NTs.

Yeah, and that's what's so tough about teaching...because so much of my time, energy and attention goes to all students, particularly those that are struggling. The good thing is that I always get along with the independent students pretty well. The only thing that's frustrating is when we're going through things as a whole class and the brighter students are jumping ahead so much that it starts confusing most of the others, and I have to backtrack and slow down.

A lot of emphasis is placed on doing something because "that's just the way it is" and this description doesn't tend to satisfy me and probably doesn't satisfy a lot of other NTs. I can really only speak for INTPs though, because that's what I am. And a lot of emphasis is placed on showing all your work. Sometimes to me, writing every single tiny step is boring and redundant because I already know what I'm supposed to do... for example, I have no need to write out that 8*4=32; I can do that in my head. I also tend to be able to remember certain problems and refer back to them and notice the pattern and I can come up with an answer instantly and in good confidence that way, but I can't necessarily explain why I got that answer, because once I have the answer, the steps are meaningless to me.

Yeah, this is kind of the same thing...I always like going back and explaining concepts when students ask, but then those explanations end up confusing a lot more of the "basic" thinking students, and it gets frustrating. A lot of times I wish I could split my classes into pieces and teach them one at a time.

I think NTs tend to be good at math because we are more pattern-oriented, system-oriented, and have no problem with theoretical things. But I wouldn't call myself brilliant at math because a lot of math teachers (and I'm not saying you do this) are so accustomed to the material that they don't understand how someone could have trouble with it, which makes a lot of people reluctant to ask for help. And chances are, if you're an NT and you struggle with math, you don't struggle with all aspects of it. When something comes up that I don't understand, mentally I'm like, "Ugh, why can't I do this?" And it's never completely over my head, either. I can always grasp at the material, and I usually understand it when I watch someone else do it, but when it's time for me to do it myself, I get kind of lost.

Yeah, that's one thing that overall I think I'm really good at. This is where being a feeler helps, especially with Fe...I'm overall very patient and am willing to take my time with students explaining things and going back through it. In general I make my students really comfortable about asking for help. Usually the only students who fail me are ones that don't really try or the ones who had a whole lot of trouble in all of their other math classes. I don't think I'm a great teacher, but in general my students do well and many tell me I'm better than a number of teachers they've had.






Anyway, I know I turned this personal...I try not to, but sometimes I can't help it....silly F, I know. But I really appreciate all of the responses, I've found them quite interesting.

[teddy564339]

I love math for what it is, and for what it stands for, just don't make me do it. Showing me the reasoning and why it matters is the only way I'll learn/care/do it. I always enjoyed math quirks as well, on a basic level things like 111x111 ends up with some sort of 123 pattern.

Yeah, I like stuff like that too. I have a lot of little number tricks and logic puzzle things that I show my students when we have extra time. You may have seen stuff like this before, but they usually like this one:

a) Pick a number between 1 and 9 (including 1 or 9).


b) Multiply your number by 2.


c) Add 5 to the number you created in part b.


d) Multiply the number you created in part c by 50.


e) If you haven't had your birthday yet this year, add 1760 to the number you created in part d. If you've had your birthday, add 1761 to that number.


f) Subtract the year you were born (ex: 1990) from the number you created in part e.


You should come up with a three digit number. The first digit is the number you picked in part a and the last two digits should be your age.