This is a discussion on NFs in romantic relationships with SJs? within the NF's Temperament Forum- The Dreamers forums, part of the Keirsey Temperament Forums category; i do however start to feel left out or upset when he pulls the silence maneuver, its similar to the ...
Wow. Been there done that too many times. I totally understand and it is hurtful...i do however start to feel left out or upset when he pulls the silence maneuver, its similar to the silent treatment but im not sure hes intending to avoid contact for a particular outcome, he just falls into an abyss of silence and indifference or starts saying things that indirectly relate to our relationship in a hurtful way.
Originally Posted by Mendi the ISFJ
-----To both of you, since I have experienced the same kinds of things you've been talking about, I'd just like to point out a few things that really helped me (understand):
-----1. Learning all about emotional invalidation (Invalidation may be the single most damaging form of psychological abuse), emotional neglect, and emotional abuse.
-----2. Reading about personality disorders, not so that I can amateurly diagnose, but so I can understand what is considered to be normal from abnormal behavior. The range is quite a bit broader than I would have originally thought. I don't think ISTJs suffer from these disorders disproportionately. Only something like 4% of the population suffers from personality disorders. However, as the excellent book Emotional Vampires taught me, a much higher percentage of people regularly exhibit behaviors associated with personality disorders. The way one handles such behaviors is the same, whether one is dealing with a personality-disordered person or person exhibiting one or more behaviors of a personality-disordered person. The areas I would emphasize are Avoidant Personality Disorder (AvPD) (especially Type IIc), Obsessive-Compulsive Personality Disorder (OCPD) (not the same as OCD), Schizoid Personality Disorder, Depressive Personality Disorder, Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD), Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD), Histrionic Personality Disorder (look for the sufferer), and Passive–aggressive behavior.
- Type IIc avoidants remove themselves from others via a process of reaction formation, where they distance from all by becoming overly involved with, or actually immersed in, a regressive relationship withone. This type is exemplified by the codependent individuals described by Melody Beattie, some of whom are avoidants who moveaway from home and in with a steady partner or spouse to become immersion junkies, who seem nonavoidant because they are in a close, all-encompassing, loving permanent relationship with one person, but are, however, not relating to one out of love, but hiding out from all out of fear as well as out of anger that leads them to show their dislike of, and try to defeat, all the other people in their lives. Sometimes these bosom relationships work, and last, but if the number of books written on how to overcome codependency is any indication, all is not well in the codependent life. For codependent relationships are often not as loving as they seem to be; rather, they can be unhealthy hostile-dependent relationships that, though they often last, less often really work. The Essential Guide to Overcoming Avoidant Personality Disorder. Martin Kantor. Page 36.
-----3. Reading about attachment style in adults.
-----4. Reading the following books:
- Emotional Blackmail. Susan Forward.
- Emotional Vampires. Albert J. Bernstein.
- The Essential Guide to Overcoming Avoidant Personality Disorder. Martin Kantor.
- Stop Walking on Eggshells. Mason Kreger.
- Emotional Unavailability. Bryn C. Collins.
- The 5 Love Languages. Gary Chapman.
- In Sheep's Clothing: Understanding and Dealing with Manipulative People. George Simon, Jr.
-----Lastly, remember that a relationship is only a relationship so long as both people are willing to work on it. I wish you both all the best.
Props to you, this is very accurate.I believe that some things can change, only if the ISTJ is willing to make a change and if it's aligned with his/her values.
You NFs are such lovely people. I admire your genuine kindness and caring towards all of humanity, as well as how considerate and attentive you are towards your loved ones. NFs have the ability to change how ISTJs think or make them change their mind. Your perspectives gives us new insights that we didn't see before and this helps us broaden our horizons. We're able to step outside our rigid usual selves and open up to new experiences. Most likely, I think ISTJs don't see the different shades or perspectives until they've actually been there-they have to experience it as sensors. After that, they may be able to look at different situations with the new perspectives they gained.
I also think that those that are with ISTJs that have some relationship experience are in better luck. You NFs have manipulating powers so use that to your advantage!! ISTJs tend to respect authoritative figures and people who are intelligent, logical, and make sense to them. If you can do this, you can win them; I know some NFs who can speak rationally.
I've read some posts on here about ISTJ mates not putting in much effort into improving their relationships, not wanting to change their ways, or not being interested about the mbti theory. To those that are having troubles with ISTJ mates, have you tried this?: Make a deal with them. Say, if I do this (rub your feet, give you a back massage, etc.), will you do this (read a personalitypage.com profile of ISTJ, give ourselves a date night where we can talk about our relationship, etc.)? Some of you want to see a counselor-yeah, ISTJs hate that because we think we can handle it all by ourselves.What to do? Do you know of any couples who have been through counseling and their relationships have improved? Point them out to your ISTJ. Another thing, if the counselor has good reputation and history, then the ISTJ is most likely to respect him/her and be open to it. Or if there is a good friend of the ISTJ that likes that counselor and recommends him/her, then the ISTJ is going to consider it. Someone like Gary Chapman, is good to consider. He is well-educated and graduated from Duke University. His books have risen up to the top sellers, and he has been married for +40 years. He has been in the field of marriage counseling for +30 years. These statistics prove that Gary Chapman is someone worth looking at. If you can convince your ISTJ to attend one of these events, it could be the start of something new that could lead him/her to open up to even more ideas.
I'm not an SJ or an NF, but I have some thoughts that have helped me as well as friends in the past so I thought I'd share. Here goes...
I think SJ's could be some of the best matches for NP's because they're just inverses in terms of functions.
==============
Example 1: I, INTP, used to date an ISFJ.
INTP= Ti/Ne + Si/Fe
ISFJ = Si/Fe + Ti/Ne
Same axes, just switched; we easily understood how each other's thoughts and feelings were working. Any misunderstanding quickly cleared itself up.
================
Example 2
Pinkrasputin = ENFP (I hope she doesn't mind me using this example, lol)
ENFP = Ne/Fi + Te/Si
ESTJ = Te/Si + Ne/Fi
Same logic. She and her partner could be a good match b/c they're basically helping to develop each others' weaker axes... In addition to her aforementioned claims of success that she's had so far.
(Best of Luck, by the way!!)
=============
Consequentially, I would also wanna think SP's and NJ's would get along great via the same logic.
I was in a long-term relationship with an ISTJ. Around about 2 years in I broke up with her, because I didn't feel she understood me, I didn't feel respected or valued, our differences were too big, we couldn't connect or share...
We got back together about a month later (I had no closure or distance as we worked together), I soon forgot about the bad stuff and concentrated on the good, or tricked myself into thinking there was something I liked that wasn't really there.
2 years later I broke up with her again, couple of weeks later got back together.
Not being happy, always having the same arguments and fights. She's always right and I'm always wrong. She never does anything wrong, and I do. She's the mature level headed one and I'm the irresponsible, unpractical dreamer...
She showed no affection or love and if she did it seemed so fake and scheduled.
Her concrete and literal conversation style bored me to death and I already knew what she was going to say before she finished talking.
Her and her whole family are so traditional and narrow-minded that they truly believe that anyone different to them, anyone who thinks differently, different attitudes, morals, outlook on life... is wrong and crazy etc etc etc...
She isn't very intelligent, although has a degree in teaching and is now a teacher, she is very simple in all aspects. She doesn't know general knowledge stuff like the capital of Germany is Berlin. Stuff about Pearl Harbour etc, ok she teaches primary school but come on you should know stuff like this. The list goes on. Her & her sister didn't know which 2 of the Beatles are still alive (and her sisters doing a degree in Music) pffft
2 years later (now) I broke up with her again, and for good this time!!
Oh boy...I hate to be shallow here but I'm guessing that she is a hottie, if you kept going back to her despite the fact you two were clearly not compatible.
I would try it. hot and smart -> nice. I think, I would stayed with her. my fav. girl is (i think) sj... I am NJ, so SHE has more knowledge about "here and now" and I follow a vision. Maybe its a good plot for a good relationship. btw. greetings from Berlin.
btw: knowledge has nothing to do with SJ... and "nothing nothing" with NF. Some people have problems to explain their feelings. Fe sometimes too.
Thank you. We just spent the weekend together and it's still going strong. He finally has met my daughter and he brought her a bouquet of flowers when he met her.
I can see his weaker Ne trying to understand mine and other's perspectives. It easily does. I also use Te and Si to create order and stability. I need help with this.
So far, communication has been really good through disagreements. We both really listen to each other when presented with an issue and it's resolved pretty quick.
When I met my late partner I had dated a bunch of messed up losers and only wanted someone who was sure of who he was. My ISTJ was all that, which was both the greatest strength and most annoying aspect of our 12 year relationship. Charley was significantly older than me, and experience had mellowed him. One of my favorite things about him was how he argued. He'd simply say "X really bothers me. Consider yourself balled out." Devastating and effective.
-----This is good reasoning. However, the practical reality is for some reason quite different than the theory suggests. INFP/ISTJ relationships are quite common, which is certainly significant--there's something pulling us together. However, there are very serious relationship problems that almost universally arise and are seldom overcome (it does happen, though). Part of the issues arise because either one or both partners has underdeveloped tertiary and inferior functions. The following article explains the issue quite well: INFJ, INFP, INTP, INTJ Relationships, Compatibility, & the Inferior Function | Personality Junkie.
-----I am sorry that your relationship experience was so negative. I am certainly not going to tell you not to be angry. However, what I think I hear is that you feel that hate is the only available response to anger. There are other options. First, let me tell you, if no one has told you before, that while we are not entitled to much in this life, we ARE entitled to our feelings, thoughts, opinions, and ideas. If we are told we are not allowed to internally process or have feelings (which is the result of emotional invalidation and/or emotional blackmail), then they end up being expressed externally through our behavior--negatively. Instead, if we acknowledge our feelings and take a moment to really feel them internally, then it is possible to then take a look at things from a more objective standpoint and adjust our behaviors in a way that will lessen the chance of a negative response from the other person. This process is called drawing personal boundaries. The books I mentioned in previous posts in this thread help with this process.
-----ISTJ communication is not intended to harm you (usually), but it commonly does (unless that person has been through lots of therapy). But please realize that ISTJs can and do love, very much--it's just the expression of that love that becomes problematic in NF-ISTJ relationships. For whatever reason, ISTJs (and many ESFJs and I'm sure other personality types and people, too) seem to start at the default position of "Control = Love." Check out PersonalityPages' relationship (also see the "Parenting") section under ISTJ relationships. ISTJs have a tendency to equate love with control, which can be quite destructive to relationships. But they do love, it's just that the expression of emotion in a way that takes other people's emotions into account does not come naturally to ISTJs.
-----For those of you in relationships with ISTJs or just a person that tend to equate love with control, I suggest seeing an NF therapist so that you can get some tools from a professional on how to draw boundaries when dealing with an invasive and controlling person. NF therapists are also very good at determining when it is time to leave (and in a way that helps the NF cope) and when it is still worth working on.
-----So let me make it clear, ISTJs aren't evil, superficial, or incapable of love. That's not it. They're just coming from a perspective that is quite alien to an NF. But since NFs draw strength from their relationships, it is necessary for NFs in a troubled relationship either to require that both people work on the relationship or to take ownership of the decision to leave the troubled relationship. Unhappy relationships make us (the whole person) unhappy, and we cannot exist in that state indefinitely--and that is something SJs should understand about NFs before committing to one. We are not primarily looking for a business partner, a playmate, a helpmate, a mindmate, or anything of the sort--we're looking for a life partner who will work on a relationship with us from day one to death do us part (and if we're feeling particularly unreasonable, we're looking for a soul-mate).
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