[j3321]

Keirsey talks about the Guardians and Idealists being cooperative and the Rationals and Artisans being utilitarian. Probably the easiest way to spot an Artisan in my opinion is the utilitarian function. I tend to be pretty confrontational and straightforward but realize most people don't relish such an approach so I tone it down quite a bit (except online in the INTP discussion forum where I am almost always being an abrasive prick but hey notice how nice and sweet I am when I'm here with you guys). I always know when I'm talking to an Artisan is because when I get a little provocative/combative they always immediately start to "exchange blows" so to speak. I know they probably aren't Gaurdians or Idealists. Not that those two temperaments can't be argumentative or confrontational but they don't do it the same way the Artisans and Rationals do.

So anyway my beautiful guiding principle is being destroyed by an ENFP I know. I was sure he was an ESTP "Doer" as they are called but he claims to be ENFP. He is very ambitious. He sets high goals and just goes after them with no real planning or depth of thought. His ideas are not realistic and he tries to make them realities in a non-linear, non-nonsensical, non-organized way which I thought must be the impulsive, hedonistic, in the moment, sensing, man of action qualities of the Artisan (in a very immature way of course in spite of the fact he is almost 25).

Nevertheless, he claims to be Idealist. I can see the idealism because his goals are pretty lofty/grand/magnificent/etc. To me his approach is not well thought out or efficient but perhaps he is going with this intuitions? He often comments how random, metaphorical, and non-linear his thought patterns are. Sounds like intuition. Um...But yeah I dunno he's very break-all-the-rules-and-get-things-done oriented in my view so I was sure he had to be an Artisan. (Though I despise this way of life and perhaps I am overly sensitive to it.) Can extroverted Idealists be like that? Aren't they a little more mellow? I know INFJ's and INFP's and they are not like that. INFJ's for sure. INFP's can be spontaneous and crazy when they want but I know a few of them and I can't imagine them ever acting like this guy does. Not on a regular basis. They're more caring/people oriented/poetic/drifters etc.

Do you think he is taking the test and scoring himself more intuitive than sensing by mistake? Is that likely to happen? Or can extroverted Idealists resemble Artisans at times?

P.S. Come to think of it my childhood friend I always thought was an ESFJ but I now realize he was most certainly an ENFJ. No doubt in my mind. He was similar to the ENFP I'm thinking of. He'd be kinda crazy and rebellious but he'd always apologize and make sure no one's feelings were hurt...and I think that's beyond just being an F. I've known F Artisans and he's gotta be an F Idealist. So seeing the ENFP I'm talking about is a P and not a J on top of this makes me think he really could be an idealist...

P.S.S. His goals are very spiritual, humanitarian, etc. and his methods of solving them are abstract I suppose. His whole thing is he thinks he can create this invention using magnets and electricity to improve agriculture in east Asia. Unbelievably stupid but it's not a concrete solution. He's devoted his whole life to this. "All in." Very passionate. Aren't the Idealists supposed to be passionate as well as intuitive, abstract, idealistic, interpersonal, etc.?

P.S.S.S. I am an INTP and one thing about me is I sometimes cannot stop generating new ideas in my mind that "need" to be added to my hypothesis/theory/whatever and it is a disgusting obsession that wastes huge amounts of time so I am writing this to force myself to stop.

[j3321]

Where's the flood of INFP's I was expecting?

[Ectoplasm]

I'm more of a puddle but I can chip in. I don't think the desire to rebel is strictly E, but its probably the E's who are more likely to walk out, slam the door behind them with their argument opponent following them, yelling at the E which falls on deaf ears.

I tend to rebel a lot too, yet its often more of a silent resentment, a secret rebellion. I rebel when forced into a decision I don't agree with, yet as I try and avoid conflict I pretend to be a yes man and as soon as my more authoritorian companion turns their eyes from me, I do things my way in secret. I do on occasion have a huge argument and storm out in the style I mentioned for the E's above, but only as a special treat.

I think everyone has the ability to be rebellious, especially with the N asking us to question hierachy and consider other ways to do things. I think the Fi compounds the effect too.

[Gaminegirlie]

I'm not extraverted, but i'm more rebellious than most.
Yeah i think having N, makes you have a higher tendency to.

[j3321]

Hm interesting....NF's are so difficult. NT's are easy. SP's are easy. SJ's are pretty easy. NF's man they cause me problems. Mysterious.

[Ectoplasm]

Hm interesting....NF's are so difficult. NT's are easy. SP's are easy. SJ's are pretty easy. NF's man they cause me problems. Mysterious.

Are you sure about that? I thought NT's valued themselves on being difficult and complex. Let's say you're in a physics or chemistry lecture, and a "professor" comes in who knows nothing about the subject at all. What's worse, everything they are teaching is incorrect e.g them saying protons and electrons orbit a nucleus. You know they are wrong with all you being and you look around, your lecture companions don't seem to care or perhaps actually believe what they are told. Don't tell me you would just go along with such a thing, I predict you would either stand up and correct them, tell yourself in your mind that the professor is wrong and what you know is right or finally dismiss it all as a joke or farce. In all of these, you have essentially rebelled against the powers that be. I think rebellion is little more than pro-active opposition (or opposition negatively labelled by people who believe their views flawless and opponents to it as inherently wrong.)

I think this is essentially what most NFs feel in day to day life. When we are ordered about, judged or quantified/categorised by others who we don't feel in our hearts to be correct about us or to not know the full picture about who we are or what we are capable of then it is fair to take what the other person is saying with a pinch of salt in my opinion.

[nikkigargin]

yes us NFs are difficult because we can get angery over the details rather than the whole picture, which makes it hard to work where people stand with us. i was very rebellious and still am, i hate to be told what to do, and my parents finally ahve learned you have to ask me..not tell me lol

[lycanized]

I think that the ENFP's cognitive function order may cause them to be a bit more 'rebellious' than some of the other NFs. First of all, Ne is their dominant function. It pushes you to experiment and see new ways of doing things and to find patterns...yada yada yah...I'm not really too sure about Fi as I'm still figuring out a lot about it, but I know that it's used in much the same way as an ENTP would use Ti. Except, with Ti, I tend to look logical inconsitencies and it may give me an extra dose of reality in looking at things. But I think that beyond that, their tertiary Te gives them a push in getting these things that they have in their mind.

[j3321]

Are you sure about that? I thought NT's valued themselves on being difficult and complex. Let's say you're in a physics or chemistry lecture, and a "professor" comes in who knows nothing about the subject at all. What's worse, everything they are teaching is incorrect e.g them saying protons and electrons orbit a nucleus. You know they are wrong with all you being and you look around, your lecture companions don't seem to care or perhaps actually believe what they are told. Don't tell me you would just go along with such a thing, I predict you would either stand up and correct them, tell yourself in your mind that the professor is wrong and what you know is right or finally dismiss it all as a joke or farce. In all of these, you have essentially rebelled against the powers that be. I think rebellion is little more than pro-active opposition (or opposition negatively labelled by people who believe their views flawless and opponents to it as inherently wrong.)

I think this is essentially what most NFs feel in day to day life. When we are ordered about, judged or quantified/categorised by others who we don't feel in our hearts to be correct about us or to not know the full picture about who we are or what we are capable of then it is fair to take what the other person is saying with a pinch of salt in my opinion.

You guys just aren't easy to categorize. Artisans are the action people. Guardians are the preservers and administrators. Rationals the intellects. and Idealists the...dreamers? What does that even mean? You don't fit into a niche like the other three do.

The guy I'm talking about isn't being "wronged" he's just a very action oriented and utilitarian. I wish I would have said are extroverted Idealists utilitarian. Rebellious is the wrong word. Because the Rationals and Artisans are Utilitarian, Idealists and Guardians are cooperative, but I was wondering if the extroverted Idealists can come across as utilitarian at times.

[j3321]

He might just be a young male trying to make his mark on the world. Could be a masculine thing. Trying to "rise up" and "achieve" and "contribute" etc. etc.