[yesiknowbut]

Psilo, that's very kind. I think there is too much detail for my lazy brain, is all. I was trying to use it to work out the order of functions for a different personality type, and found it difficult, because I had to read through all of your posts to get my head around it, and I am just rubbish at detail, so I'd lost the drift of the beginning by the time I got to the end, and each time I tried to get back to a point of understanding I had to wade through the full post.



I don't suppose you could do a little formula for thickos? like

1. J or P? If J, your possible functions are w, x ,y,z. If P, your possible functions are....
2. I or E? If I, your functions are in the order a,b,...if E, your functions are in the order d,e,.....


etc. Obviously that is exactly what you did, I just can't see the entirety of it with what you've written.

I totally agree that just presenting such a formula without the explanations you have given (which separately all make nice sense) would have little meaning; I guess I'm after an executive summary.

I've never thought myself stupid before, so I'm learning something new, at least....

[Psilo]

No worries :)

Perceiving functions:
Sensing
iNtuition

Judging functions:
Thinking
Feeling

Possible functions for P types:
Extraverted Sensing (Se)
Extraverted iNtuition (Ne)
Introverted Thinking (Ti)
Introverted Feeling (Fi)

J types:
Introverted Sensing (Si)
Introverted iNtuition (Ni)
Extraverted Thinking (Te)
Extraverted Feeling (Fe)

To simplify this next part I will refer to extra/introverted perceiving (Pe/Pi) and extra/introverted judging (Je/Ji)

E types:
ExxP - Pe Ji Je Pi
ExxJ - Je Pi Pe Ji

I types:
IxxP - Ji Pe Pi Je
IxxJ - Pi Je Ji Pe

E types have their extraverted function dominant, introverted auxilliary.
Ex: ENFP
Ne Fi

I types have their introverted function first
Ex: INFP
Fi Ne

The last two functions, tertiary and inferior, are mirrored from the first two
Ex: ENFP
Ne Fi Te Si

Ex: INFP
Fi Ne Si Te

I hope that helps. I want to explain the formula so you can work out what functions a type uses from the four letters without resorting to memorization of them all.
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[yesiknowbut]

OK, you're losing me on the second and third sections. For example, where you have written
ExxP: Pe Ji Je Pi

what do you mean? Can this be the four functions for a single type? Doesn't seem to work, looking back at what you have just written for Perceiving and judging functions. Do these four represent the four possible dominant types for this personality subtype depending on which group (rational, guardian etc) you belong to?

As an exercise I am trying to use your formula for my type. I know my first two functions should be Ne and Ti, and can therefore work out that my second two are Fe and Si.

But you have ExxP- Pe Ji Je Pi

Extroverted perceiving = Ne, so far so good
Ji.....Ok, now I'm lost. I know it should be Ti, what do you mean by Ji?

[yesiknowbut]

OK, I think I'm getting it, if you take out the "possible functions for..." section it's less confusing. And the explanation, "E types have their extroverted function dominant...etc" is redundant. I was going to say, are you sure you don't have a bit of S in your make-up, as the detail still confuses, but I think that's cos I can't do it at all, at all. Thanks again for your patience.


It is interesting to see what a deficiency a strong N can be. I have noticed this recently when an ISFJ was trying to explain something complex to an INTJ. The more the INTJ said, I don't understand, the more detail the ISFJ provided, and the worse it got. I realise you haven't been doing this at all, but I hadn't realised before now what a blindness to detail can do with one's ability to assimilate new information. Something for me to work on!

[Psilo]

The function order is up for debate, so you may hear different orders.

The original theory has the first four functions:
Dominant
Auxilliary
Tertiary
Inferior.

They alternate in orientation E-I-E-I for extraverts and I-E-I-E for introverts.

Pe/Pi is a placeholder that refers to either Se/Si or Ne/Ni, and same for Je/Ji and T or F.

Now, I'm on a cell phone and on the mobile site I can't view your type. ENTP?

You know with P than the N will be extraverted and T will be introverted. Since you are an extravert (E-I-E-I) your dominant is Ne and auxilliary is Ti.
In the formula: Ne-Ti-Je-Pi. The tertiary is the direct reverse of the auxilliary, and the inferior is the reverse of the dominant. The last two directly mirror the first two.

Ne-Ti-Fe-Si

If it helps, contrast with ENFP: Ne-Fi-Te-Si and ENTJ: Te-Ni-Se-Fi and INTP: Ti-Ne-Si-Fe
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[yesiknowbut]

ENTP, yes.

I have it now, thanks.

Utterly pared down, I can understand it. The expression "Pe/Pi is a placeholder..." is the element that had me confused, but I've worked it out now.

I think part of the problem is that I have been trying to work to somebody else's type thinking that they use both Se and Ni, and it doesn't work too well for IxxJ for this person, and I have been trying to think about hierarchies and how the dominant type can pin down all of the others...juggling with all the Pi's and Je's has been messing with my head.

I really appreciate you taking the time to go through it.

[Psilo]

It's no trouble. I'm happy to help.
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[ohrtsadok]

Can someone please explain what the two last functions do? I think they are the auxilary and the inferior.

[Eric B]

The tertiary and inferior are sort of mirrors to the dominant and auxiliaty. The key to understanding the functions and their roles is realizing that type is formed by preferring functions and orientations, and suppressing others.
So you take your dominant function and it's attitude; that becomes "superior", and the opposite function and opposite attitude become inferior, from being suppressed.
The auxiliary is the opposite kind of function (judging or perceiving) with the opposite attitude. The Tertiary will be the diametric opposite of this; again, opposite function, opposite attitude [opposite of opposite is original dominant].

This is extended into the "other four" functions, which in the full eight-function model become known as "the shadows". Take these same four functions, with teir attitudes. Reverse those attitudes, and you have even further suppressed versions of these functions, playing similar roles; but usually more negative.

[ImNoTJustletters]

Thankyou for the thread Psilo, there is some very useful information here. However, I still have a question that am having difficulty formulating. As you have demonstrated more insight than I have previously come across, I hope you can help me sort this out.

The issues that arise in my mind have to do with the use of the Orientation to determine the Attitude of the dominant function. And subsequently the attitude of the following functions. This then seems counter-intuitive when using the Attitude to determine the dominant function.

There is an implied question in there somewhere, I just haven't found it yet.