[vodkaredbull]

Hi all. I'm a female INFP 6w7 with strong N and fairly weak everything else. I have an observation about two of the xSTJ's I've met and want to hear other people's takes on it. All of the things I read about the types keep mentioning how xSTJ's are such "upstanding citizens" and "very loyal" and all that jazz. (Disclaimer: I know everyone is a unique individual and that how two people behave doesn't necessarily reflect the behaviors of everyone in the same group. I'm just describing my own personal experiences.)

The two I've known, while traditional, don't strike me as "upstanding citizens" per se. I mean, they go to their jobs, are reliable, and do what they're supposed to, but both of them definitely have a very "take care of #1 first" attitude. Both of them act sexy and charismatic and fun to be around, but both are also quite flirtatious and a bit womanizing. Both are also rather materialistic (concerned about brand names and impressing people) and also struggle with commitment issues insofar as romantic relations go.

Regardless, I think of an "upstanding citizen" as someone who values the greater good, does "the right thing," is concerned about the well-being of others, etc., not a flirty materialist who worries more about looking after himself than anyone else. Please don't get me wrong: I'm not saying these two guys are users or jerks or anything--they just don't seem very concerned about the welfare of anyone besides their close friends and immediate family. They're certainly not selfless pioneers of social justice. Their surface-level behavior conforms to everything they're "supposed to be doing," but their motivations for doing so are generally fairly self-centered (i.e. wanting to make more money or avoid getting in trouble). Unless they're the exception, I don't understand how anyone is getting "upstanding citizen" from these behaviors. Anyone have input or relevant experiences?

[vodkaredbull]

Sooo I'm just realizing that I may not have posted this in the most appropriate place, since I'm being a forum noob. Please someone move this if it doesn't really belong here. Thanks!

Also, to clarify, instead of "xSTJ," I should have just put "STJ." One is an ESTJ, and the other is an ISTJ.

[knittigan]

Sounds like you must know my ESTJ father intimately.

[Hastings]

Describes my experiences with strong Te doms in general. They appreciate things that are material, high-standard, high-value, etc. and sort of frown down upon no-profit idealism. If you remove their self-interest, I don't see a lot of upstanding values left, honestly.

Disclaimer: I don't categorically dislike Te users, but I think this is a certain issue that pops up.

[bamboozle]

Maybe 'upstanding citizen' if you understand that phrase to mean something less…demanding?

I think they're thought to be 'upstanding' because they appreciate rules and like to be productive (materialism is kind of productive from a broad society pov, too!). What else would you want a citizen to do? It might be nice if the 'upstanding citizen' were more generous, giving as well as productive, law-abiding etc but…I suppose that might be going above and beyond, really. That would be an 'outstanding citizen'…or something…perhaps. The xSTJs are good at…being the basic, good model of a citizen, I suppose? Might want the INFJs for something more (I mean, if we're going to talk in groups. I hear that the stereotype of the INFJ is that they like to be part of something bigger and more meaningful than just themselves).

Also, you only mentioned xSTJs generally but I think it's interesting that people forget that Fi is the tertiary function of the ISTJs. In terms of functions, it makes perfect sense to me that some people might think they were self-centered. I don't think they feel that way. It can just make them very certain of what they think is right/wrong; makes them very certain of what's good for them (and their close friends/family). —Of course, this depends on how the Fi is developed. Either way, the tertiary function is still important in orienting the individual, I think?

[LiquidLight]

You have to remember the United States (and much of Western Europe) is ESTJ-centric. So many of the character traits of ESTJ are going to be seen as model in this society (it's also why a likely NFP like Barack Obama is seen as something of an enigma to a lot of people).

The other thing is there isn't a set standard of values or behavior for ESTJ. Much like their ESFJ cousins, they can be very different relative to their environment (for different reasons). SJs are known for their insistence on personal security, but that can mean different things in different contexts.

they go to their jobs, are reliable, and do what they're supposed to, but both of them definitely have a very "take care of #1 first" attitude. Both of them act sexy and charismatic and fun to be around, but both are also quite flirtatious and a bit womanizing. Both are also rather materialistic (concerned about brand names and impressing people) and also struggle with commitment issues insofar as romantic relations go.

These are stereotypes of how SJs are supposed to act (keep in mind those standards are based on cultural standards). On another website there's a pretty funny forum thread about how a lot of strippers are surpisingly SJs. They strip because its job and financial security (and with inferior-Fi in ESTJs, the social or moral implications don't really factor as much as one would think).