[DJArendee]

So in the navy there is this saying that gets tossed around like hotcakes, "perception is reality." Basically what it means is that if there is a gut feeling you feel a certain way toward someone there is usually some element of truth to it.



Well basically the number one personality I hear saying these words are ESTJ's. ESTJ's are all about the navy. The navy is all about ESTJ's. So what tends to happen is that ESTJ's are often times all around me.

Now, according to socionics, I have a "contrary" relationship with them which means they always think I'm trying to go against their wishes and rebel. This couldn't be any more true. Its probably the biggest problem in my life (next to near constant identity crisis).

So in the military, all these people tell me I have an attitude problem. Its usually ESTJ's. Sometimes other personalities have their own issues with me which I feel are warranted. But with ESTJ's I can never convince them that I'm not what they percieve. This is usually how it goes:

ESTJ: You have an attitude problem.
Me: No I don't.
ESTJ: Yes you do.
Me: Um, yes sir. (moves on with life)
ESTJ: (goes on and tells all his friends I have an attitude problem, and then suddenly everyone hates me and thinks I'm incompetant.)

This is obsurd. I've dealt with this problem for the last 5 years of my life. I don't know what to do or how to solve it. This is ruining my life.

Now, over the last 5 years I've adapted to it. However when I act the way they want me to, I just act like an ESTJ. And in doing so I get completely exhausted and as someone pointed out to me I might have prolonged adaptive stress syndrome, which basically means you get fatigued and depressed from living a lie.

In the military, challenging ESTJ's is tough because its all about politics and everything you say apparently puts their reputation on the line. They become very careful around me and make sure they act to perfection.

So as mentioned before, this is ruining my life and I need to find a way to deal with ESTJ's who do this shit to me. Any ideas? I need some canned lines that will be effective. I'm not sure what to do.

[EagleEye]

ESTJ: You have an attitude problem.
Me: No I don't.
ESTJ: Yes you do.
Me: Um, yes sir. (moves on with life)
ESTJ: (goes on and tells all his friends I have an attitude problem, and then suddenly everyone hates me and thinks I'm incompetant.)

A simple response "Yes we all have an attitude problem, but your not helping mine.' That way you agree but also though it back. I like to generalize everyone when I can, it typically makes people think for a second or so as I walk away.

[T927]

This will sound awful and I hate myself for writing it:

It may be worth it to bite the bullet and ask them what you can do to change. I'd rather die. I'd rather tell them all to shit in their hats. But, since you are going to have to deal with them for your career if you stay in, you might want to placate.

I am a teacher and most of my coworkers are ISFJ/ESFJ. Regardless of S/N, E/I, and T/F they are definitely all J. I think we run into this anytime there is a prominence of J. They have there ideal society and when you don't live up to it, you're an outcast.

Your other option is to rise above them, take your own path, do a better job and succeed much more. Then, when they try to sabotage you and ruin you and your reputation, at least you know you are the best. This would be my option since it is impossible for me to placate. I hate submitting to the will of dummies and will take my own road no matter what the cost.

Since it is the military it will be hard. Maybe you can find an MOS with less idiocy. Or spend your days playing pranks on them until you get kicked out.

[T927]

Oh I meant to add. The ESTJ will probably love it if you as for help. They will have yet another pointless duty to fulfill.

Also, some possible differences in approach:

I am guessing you are in the Navy looking for a cool job, good experiences, a rad life.

They are in the military to fulfill a duty. Devotion and duty is their creed. They actually believe the oath that is said at MEPS.

So this difference could be part of your divide.

[Erbse]

ESTJ: You have an attitude problem.
Me: No I don't.
ESTJ: Yes you do.
Me: Um, yes sir. (moves on with life)
ESTJ: (goes on and tells all his friends I have an attitude problem, and then suddenly everyone hates me and thinks I'm incompetant.)

Well, I'd probably go with "whatever" rather than "Um, yes sir." generally however I see nothing wrong with that flow of conversation.

[alionsroar]

An "attitude problem" is a very vague thing. Before you argue that you don't have one, maybe clarify with him what he means by asking questions. Really get in there and nitpick away politely and find out all the facts before coming to a conclusion. Since his perception is not yours, maybe find out the difference between your perceptions.

Maybe you shortened your example for brevity, but 'i'm right, you're wrong' can't work on an average ESTJ. In a similiar way to how ISTPs don't believe things without facts, neither do ESTJs. Someone thinking they are wrong or getting annoyed is not evidence a Te person can use to change their mind.

[Era]

Also, the military is probably not the best place to rebel. Hopefully you'll have better opportunities for rebellion elsewhere. :-)

[WhySoSerious]

An ESTJ I know goes against logic to try an prove me wrong. Maybe because he does think I'm trying to rebel? Don't know but when I question his logic he gets really pissy. He stated that people should still go to work every day even when they're sick, saying it's "all in your head." I pointed out if there is physical symptoms it's not all in your head. At that point he just shakes his head and pretends like I'm not there. Can't seem to admit when he's wrong, doesn't want to adapt. Shit I enjoy when people prove me wrong, not only does it give me a different perspective but I can learn from it and use it to my advantage in the future.

But yeah for ISTPS out there if you want to piss off ESTJS question their decision making and maybe make a couple comments about it (I already know your going to baby) If you want to make them furious tell them how it could be done better (Preferably against what's traditional)

[n2freedom]

An "attitude problem" is a very vague thing. Before you argue that you don't have one, maybe clarify with him what he means by asking questions. Really get in there and nitpick away politely and find out all the facts before coming to a conclusion. Since his perception is not yours, maybe find out the difference between your perceptions.

Maybe you shortened your example for brevity, but 'i'm right, you're wrong' can't work on an average ESTJ. In a similiar way to how ISTPs don't believe things without facts, neither do ESTJs. Someone thinking they are wrong or getting annoyed is not evidence a Te person can use to change their mind.

I agree with the clarification approach. In my experience, you can't tell ESTJ nothing when they think they are right. You have to skillfully ask questions and set them up to say they are wrong out of their own mouth. This should be easy for you because a typical ISTP is very adept at asking the questions that cut to the heart of the matter.

If he says you have an attitude problem, then you are basically asking for the logical facts that led him to that conclusion. Also, asking questions is a good tool for interrupting patterns because it prompts a person to justify their own reasoning. Hope that helps.

And, I also agree with FluffyCloud....military is probably not the best place.... :-)

[reletative]

i can't really help you because personally when it comes to ESTJ's i DO have an attitude problem.