[bebeserene]

That is what I dont get with my ISTJ....the further I pull away the more he comes out of his shell.
He is VERY reactive.

I know exactly what you mean. And even though I really don't know this guy very well at all (there's only so much you can get to know of someone after a week), I feel like I can read him like a book. Except that the cover and the insides say two completely different things. hahahahaha. So I find that a bit confusing. But somehow, it's like I just sort of instinctively knew that if I tried to talk to him or force communication, he'd just close up and not talk to me at all. Not that that's why I did it, but in the end, I thought it would be better for me, for my own sanity, to cut off contact with him, and since doing that, I feel like he's trying to keep tabs on me through our mutual friend (mutual friend now pays way too much attention to anything i say about my future travel plans and keeps tabs on which guys I'm hanging out with and when and takes note of whether i'm attracted to any of them, and then feels it necessary to mention that his friend is planning to come back to visit again so he can blatantly watch my reaction. wow. super embarrassing, to say the least. when it happened i really just wanted to die. now, in retrospect though, it all just seems ridiculously funny. ha.)

littleblackheart, i don't know too much about your situation with your ISTJ...just the little I've picked up from some other threads...and i don't know if you've ever come to this conclusion as well--but in this situation, it came to me yesterday that the only way he'd ever get out of this relationship is if she decided to end it. i don't think he'd ever decide to end it himself. and especially after what happened, i think his guilt and sense of obligation will keep him tied there almost indefinitely. as if he has to prove to himself that he is a good guy, a good boyfriend, loyal, devoted, etc. if anyone else has another opinion, definitely let me know...i mean, i don't know if that's typical ISTJ behaviour, but it's just what i see him doing. it's like whatever feelings he might have are just totally irrelevant to his decision-making process. is this pretty much ISTJ decision-making summed up? emotions play little or no part in it? are ISTJs typically driven by obligation and/or guilt and wanting to "fix" a situation once they've made a mistake?

i guess once you're with an ISTJ, this trait would be in some way highly desirable. but getting an ISTJ to actually admit to himself that he has feelings for you and that those feelings maybe actually matter seems like a Herculean feat akin to moving Mt. Everest over to Tahiti. how do ISTJs actually get into relationships in the first place? overall they seem pretty resistant to change driven by emotional triggers. do they just not think about it? until maybe years later? I mean I guess if he were single, I could see him just sort of spending a lot of time with some girl he liked and not really consciously thinking about it as him LIKING her, and just the amount of time spent would become a de facto relationship of sorts... I mean, do ISTJs ever consciously acknowledge to themselves that they really have feelings for someone AND that those feelings maybe matter enough to start making decisions based at least partly on them?



I know I must sound really NF saying this. But yeah. What can I do. I can't betray my nature. Feelings are all I got to go on. :P

[bebeserene]

now after writing that last post and thinking about how I can get myself to move on, I'm feeling kind of sad. and i realised that probably the only way i can actually get closure and move on is if i know for certain that he doesn't have feelings for me. i don't know if i'm just interpreting things in a biased manner, because secretly i hope that he does have feelings for me, even if right now he's still committed to someone else. i guess it's this silly infp tragic hidden hope that even if everything looks impossible right now, that somehow it could work someday--someday meaning like maybe months or even years later. haha.

but if i KNEW that he doesn't have feelings for me, it would be much easier for me to just say, okay, forget it, done.

the problem is that somehow i can sense that he does have feelings for me, isn't expressing it, is staying with his girlfriend because it's the right thing to do and because he's happy with his life as it is/was with her before he ever met me.

BUT if i could understand somehow that i'm just deluding myself, and that he doesn't feel anything towards me, it would be easy for me to move on. you know, ripping off the band-aid quick, fast intense pain, then you're done.

right now it's a slow and painful peel.

so if anyone could interpret this situation a bit for me. and tell me either yeah, you're intuition is correct and he does have feelings but doesn't know how to/can't express them or act on them now, OR you've seriously misread him and the situation and this guy was just thinking w/ his balls and could care less and is just being nice out of common decency.

but man. it's hard to ignore what your gut is telling you. as an infp at least it is. sometimes i just wish my gut was wrong though. so i wouldn't have to think about it anymore.

[MyLittleBlackHeart]

Well....here is what I can give you....because honestly, I am worn down by this situation and typing at length right now is too much for me......

Here is how my ISTJ summed up his NOT leaving his situation after a 'fall out' of sorts:

As is my norm I did not measure or weigh any emotions as an aspect. And
do not get me wrong, I am not accusing you of being over emotional; only
that I understand that there are two sides to every thinking
pattern...logic and emotion. I just always seem to fail to look very
much to the latter. I understand that I can be guilty of that coldness,
and I was wrong.

Take it for what it is worth. That is straight from his email.

[bebeserene]

Well....here is what I can give you....because honestly, I am worn down by this situation and typing at length right now is too much for me......

I completely understand. it's exhausting to be processing the emotions of two people...

Here is how my ISTJ summed up his NOT leaving his situation after a 'fall out' of sorts:

Quote:
As is my norm I did not measure or weigh any emotions as an aspect. And
do not get me wrong, I am not accusing you of being over emotional; only
that I understand that there are two sides to every thinking
pattern...logic and emotion. I just always seem to fail to look very
much to the latter. I understand that I can be guilty of that coldness,
and I was wrong.

Take it for what it is worth. That is straight from his email.

yeah. just as i suspected i guess. the funny thing is that this is exactly how this guy talks and writes too! quite formally and with a sort of distance, and everything weighed by logic. but i find it charming in a way, even though at the same time it can be rather frustrating.

at this point i'm trying to detach myself while still remaining true to myself--i don't want to lie to myself about how i feel, or, conversely, try too hard to find someone else prematurely, before i'm ready. at the same time i don't really want to get into a situation where my heart is being broken on a daily basis, which i suppose is entirely possible, even without anything further actually happening between us.

maybe some more ISTJ perspectives would help clarify things for me?

[chemicalbrother]

personalitypage says ESTJs can be materialistic and status-conscious. I believe ISTJs can be as well. So maybe they would cheat when finding a more attractive person.

[bebeserene]

now that i've bared my emotions and cried my eyes out in forum, i can respond to everything else. and laugh. :)

AAAAARGH, YOU BITCH! just kidding.

hahahahahaha! Thanks Mercer. This really made me laugh.

istj men are still men.... he was probably bored with her. or something. i dunno.

yeah, this is what one of my friends said--that probably what he was missing in his relationship was passion. so yeah. he was happy...but bored. i guess.

personalitypage says ESTJs can be materialistic and status-conscious. I believe ISTJs can be as well. So maybe they would cheat when finding a more attractive person.

really? I don't know if it seems like ISTJs would be materialistic and status-conscious. i don't get that impression personally.

This is just isn't true outside of marriage. Women (especially ESFJ) cheat at a rate of 60-40 compared to men. In marriage because of financial constraints and children it might be lower. I have my doubts though.

Really? where'd you get this statistic. Not trying to refute it, just curious. I've seen stats for adultery rates within marriage, but i haven't seen a lot of hard data on infidelity rates of non-married couples. and all of the statistics i've seen of any kind always say a higher percentage of men cheat than women.

Whereas men live alone without a partner, women do not seem to be able to do this very well or often.

I also find this a rather interesting claim, because statistics show that married men live longer than unmarried men, yet by the same token, unmarried women live longer than married women. This would seem to indicate that women tend to live quite well without a partner (even better than with one), while it's men who seem to not be able to handle going it alone in life...to the point of dying out faster without a woman around to keep their hearts pumping...

ISTJ seem to be the most faithful of all types. It seems cruel to interfere as they do not seem to have much initiative.

I'm also not sure what this is supposed to mean...saying it would be cruel to interfere seems to imply that you feel a sort of patronising pity for ISTJs, because they don't have enough initiative to go out and play with the big boys? So everyone should just leave them alone, just like you'd leave the "special" kids on the playground alone??? Let me know if I'm misreading this...

Even so they can be very nasty to competitors (ganging up on them) and will pursue their fancied woman Terrier-like, supported by the rest of their men pack.

And now you're comparing them to small dogs going out hunting in packs?

hahahahahahahaha.

sorry. i just find this all very funny. and completely irrelevant.

[bebeserene]

for some reason i didn't read this post until just now. so that explains the late reply...

Reading all this, I would say, we are clueless if we think any type would be less likely to cheat. Chemistry, opportunity, and relationship issues, and even our dreams, all play a role in cheating and sexual play. Any one of us can find ourselves in a situation doing the exact thing we said we'd never do, or that we judged someone else negatively for doing the day before.

agree. this is completely right. nobody's perfect. not even the people who claim they are.

bebeserene, cheating is a bad sign. I know the hugs and kisses are very appealing and probably what you really need anyway. You're very vulnerable to the rest because the non-sexual affection is so rewarding and important to you.

i know. and this is true. i just want to cuddle. it'll be my downfall, if it hasn't been already.

As I'm reading the paragragh about how your ISTJ's relationship is so important to him and how he could meet you and not have anything happen, I felt like saying, "Yeah...he can tell himself whatever he has to, to keep his self-image intact." Let him kid himself all he wants, but don't kid yourself, ok?

so I am reading this right, aren't i? is he just trying to convince himself of something that maybe even he knows isn't true, in an attempt to preserve/rebuild his self-respect? and i don't know if he's also doing it so that he won't have to consciously feel guilty about wanting to/planning to see me again by trying to arrange circumstances so that we'd be in the same place at the same time again. i guess he just doesn't want to feel like a guilty cheater.

You would be wise not to have any contact with him whatsoever. And also, understanding his situation will not help you to deal with him, like understanding your situation will help you. Words and determination do not make you less vulnerable, so keep away if at all possible.

I guess I just feel like understanding his situation helps me understand my situation better. Or at least it helps me to feel like I'm not just deluding myself and that i'm not crazy to think/feel this way. But somehow now, after expressing my feelings in the previous posts, I feel better and less tied to the situation. More ready to move on. So we will see...how my moods fluctuate during the next few weeks. hahahaha.

[Stoic]

i guess once you're with an ISTJ, this trait would be in some way highly desirable. but getting an ISTJ to actually admit to himself that he has feelings for you and that those feelings maybe actually matter seems like a Herculean feat akin to moving Mt. Everest over to Tahiti.

Wow, you hit the nail on the head for me. I have never entered into any sort of relationship due to this. Anyways, about your situation. What I can say is when I make a decision I am very resolute to stand by it. However, there are certain things that can change that. I am nineteen and promised myself I would never drink until it was legal for me. About two weeks ago my cousin (also my roommate) won some pretty amazing rewards and was going to have a party at our apartment (with just a few well known friends, nothing major) and they were all going to be hammered. A girl was going to be there that I have had a crush on for a while. Needless to say, I drank, in hopes that maybe I could tell her I have a crush on her. I couldn't still and have now just decided to give up.

The point of the story is maybe he decided something but went against it because he really feels for you? I can't say anything for sure but that is what I make out of it :S

[bebeserene]

Stoic, why did you decide to give up? Do you think there's a possibility that she might like you back? It seems like you are already friends and are already in a group of mutual friends.

I always say it's better to say and possibly get hurt, but also possibly end up being with someone you like and care about, than to not say anything and torment yourself with it forever.

I actually wrote him a letter to tell him that i have feelings for him and that I just wanted to talk to him. First, I needed to get it off my chest so I could move on with my life and think about other things. And second, I wanted to make it impossible for him to entertain the possibility of continuing to stay with her while simultaneously "exploring his options" with me, all the while telling himself/me that it's all under the guise of an innocent friendship. I don't deal too well with deception of any kind, and that situation would have really just driven me mad, first feeling guilty and sorry for her, and then confused about his intentions towards me, and finally I'd probably end up feeling potentially used and hurt that someone would be playing with my feelings without ever actually wanting to be with me, because apparently feelings don't matter in his decision-making process. it's really not the ideal situation.

and it pretty much had the effect i expected. he didn't reply, because i guess he didn't know what to say. that was expected. i thought that if he had no feelings for me whatsoever he'd reply straight away and clear things up in a direct and no-nonsense manner. and by the same token, i also thought that if he did have feelings for me, he wouldn't reply straight away because he'd be confused and somewhat stressed to have it be brought up into the open like this, because i guess he wouldn't have expected it and was much more comfortable trying to convince himself that this was a one-off thing, had nothing at all to do with feelings or attraction he might have for me, and that any interest he had in maintaining contact with me in the future would be for very innocent friendship purposes only, and in the end would "have no effect on his relationship." and of course the last option would be that the letter would just totally creep him out and he'd quit communicating with me completely because the letter would just show that i'm a creepy stalker.

but how else do you describe an infp in love? we're only not creepy if you like us back.

or maybe we're too idealistic and long-suffering and stuck in our own heads to actually stalk anyone. okay, i take that back. we're not stalkers. but we are obsessed. but in the most sweetly painful way possible.

anyway, in the end, over a week later, we talked a bit, bc i wanted to know directly if he was actually coming to visit or not. he said sorry he didn't reply to my letter; he just didn't really know what to say. i said it was fine, i didn't expect him to know what to say anyway. and it turns out he's coming into town w/ his gf, that apparently in the end she was the one who really wanted to come. i told him i thought that was a better choice, and why did he think i wrote him that letter in the first place. also asked what his preference was, if he'd prefer that i be there or not be there when they come, because i personally think it would make things a lot less awkward and stressful if i wasn't there, especially since he's paranoid about his gf potentially finding out. he said that he didn't think it would be a problem seeing me and that he couldn't just ask me to leave my own home, wasn't that much of a jerk to do that to me, etc. i said it makes no difference to me at all, because i travel a lot anyway, and i'm not particularly fond of where i live either. then he just didn't have anything to say.

and then maybe a week or so after that i just wrote sorry for stressing him out and that i'd be going out of town when he and his gf came. and he wrote back with a smiley that it's fine and i don't have to be sorry bc he's probably the one stressing himself out anyway.

yeah, even though we don't generally communicate at all, i can tell that he's stressed about this whole thing. i don't know what that really means. either he's just stressed because he feels guilty and is afraid his girlfriend will find out and it will "destroy her, AND their relationship, which will eventually destroy him as well", or he's stressed because he's confused about his feelings, because his mind is telling him that he wants to stay with her while his emotions and subconscious thoughts are maybe telling him something else?

i mean, what would an istj be more stressed about anyway? deceiving someone he cares about for the very practical purpose of keeping the commitment he made intact and secretly bearing the burden of his guilt for the purpose of sparing "unnecessary" hurt feelings?

OR

feeling conflicted because he suddenly has to deal with (or rather, avoid dealing with) emotions that go against a commitment that he has made and feels like he should honour?

[Stoic]

As for what made me give up, I will keep those reasons to myself. If you really must know you can PM me, but it's not the topic of this thread :P

The way I see it, you have one of two choices. Either remind him that his duty is to his girlfriend, or pull him away from her. I don't think you should let him play this little game :S. He has to choose one or the other. You should take some time and think about it. What is best for him, you, and his girlfriend. Once you make your choice you should stick with it.