[sparkles]

I had a pretty unpleasant conflict with a friend of mine. I could be mistyping her as ISTJ. Please note I enjoy ISTJ regardless of what I'm asking about here. I'd like to see if you all recognize the dynamic and if you know of another way I could go about this.

This thread is open to non-ISTJs as well.

Me: admission of behavior and proactive expression of desire to visit the underlying values and ethics
Her: That was really wrong. You are a bad person for doing that.
Me: I'm already reflecting on the situation for myself, I do not need you to assert moral judgment to force me to admit to doing something wrong.
Her: [passive aggressive comment implying that only an irrational or unreasonable person would engage said behavior]
Me: Pointing out that I know several people personally who are logical, rational, reasonable, and who did this too. Restating of my preference to not have her push so hard for me to say I am wrong.



[aside: there is a huge huge difference between evaluating *behavior* and judging a person who engaged in the behavior. It is pretty hurtful to be told you are bad to the core when what that person more accurately means is that they disapprove of your behavior. It helps when someone acknowledges the difference between a person and their behavior more readily. She didn't.]

Me: alternative ideas
Her: shooting down all of them, on a soap box, practically obsessed with being right in such a way that all I can do is BE wrong for her to let up about it.

[please note that a few others agreed with me that her approach was unnecessarily rigid, amounted to shaming me, and agreed that she seemed to be almost obsessed with making me wrong and forcing me to admit she was right]

...Anyway, I still have love for ISTJs and I still have love for this friend. (I'm not even sure she is ISTJ but based on the way this unfolded I'm wondering.)

But I don't do this style of conflict very well. I dig in my heels. I try not to get mean in response but it just really really grates on me if someone is trying to force me to see things their way as if that is the only conceivable way in existence. It also aggravates me when a conflict is one person trying to be right where they refuse to acknowledge any gray areas.

It also bothers me when a person won't acknowledge that I have values and morals too, and it is aggravating when someone asserts that I must be an awful person if my morals don't match theirs perfectly. Even if my morals do match theirs, and even if I've pointed that out to them, if I don't express that in the exact way they want - accepting the shaming from them - then they still persist with trying to make that happen.

It is just not a style of conflict I do very well. I try to handle it with awareness but there's usually a very strong urge to say something I know will hurt that person's feelings just to get them to back off.

My questions:

(1) Have you been on either side of such a conflict before?

(2) Is it possible to get someone who's so focused on proving that they are right and you are wrong to shift their goal, and if so, how?

(3) Is it possible to get someone who views a topic rigidly to open up for some breathing room, and if so, how?

(4) If you have been on the side of my friend, has anyone ever said something to you that got you to quit persisting with your goal of being right and having them admit they were wrong? What did they say to lead to this?

(5) Any ideas for how I could handle such conflicts better? Admitting to being wrong just isn't an option. Even if that person is right, the approach of trying to MAKE me wrong leads to a power struggle and I refuse out of principle. If I was wrong in what I did, I am far more likely to admit it on my own, and far less likely to if the person is trying to make me.

(6) Anything else of note for you reading this?

[Out0fAmmo]

(1) Have you been on either side of such a conflict before?

A few times. Often as the "instigator" (the person you mentioned that's chastising you).

(2) Is it possible to get someone who's so focused on proving that they are right and you are wrong to shift their goal, and if so, how?

Everyone's different, but generally speaking, once I've made up my mind about something, the only thing that will change it is time.

(3) Is it possible to get someone who views a topic rigidly to open up for some breathing room, and if so, how?

Again, depends on the person. If they're a strong J, I wouldn't count on it. Just give them some space and give them time to think it over on their own.

(4) If you have been on the side of my friend, has anyone ever said something to you that got you to quit persisting with your goal of being right and having them admit they were wrong? What did they say to lead to this?

A little confused as to what this is asking. Refer to my answer to question 1 and/or 3.

(5) Any ideas for how I could handle such conflicts better? Admitting to being wrong just isn't an option. Even if that person is right, the approach of trying to MAKE me wrong leads to a power struggle and I refuse out of principle. If I was wrong in what I did, I am far more likely to admit it on my own, and far less likely to if the person is trying to make me.

Assuming you're not leaving out any details (we only have your somewhat vague side of the story), just admint you were wrong and move on. It takes two to tango; once you've said your piece, if the other person persists in running you into the ground over this, just walk away and let them shot themselves hoarse. It's not worth your time or mental energy to get in a battle of wills over it.

(6) Anything else of note for you reading this?

You were vague on the details, and we only have your side of the story (see question 5). Thus, I can't give definitive answers to your questions. Most conflicts are based on trivial things that you may think are big because of personal pride. Say you're sorry, give the person space, and move on with your life (i.e., no grudges).

Maybe this isn't the best way to handle this kind of conflict, but without a better idea of what exactly happened, that's all I've got. On a side note, I appreciate the effort you took to organize your questions into bullet points

[Wake]

1. Just today a mechanic replaced something he said that nothing was wrong with, then charged me for it. At the time I didn't respond the way I would like to so I went back with the intent to make him do the right thing based on a moral standard or I would raise hell about it. I know what is morally right, and I listen to my conscience when it's apparent of no gray area being in effect. Often people use gray areas to justify their wrongful actions because they want a certain outcome for their own good, not the moral good.

2. Well the situation is what it is. Your actions tell much about what you want, and if that isn't something her morals agree with then it isn't going to be. You could try for pity and emphasize these grey area, but in the end it will be viewed as an "anything goes" approach.

3. Show things from a different perspective and she will see why you believe you are right. If that doesn't work I think you are out of options. Agree to disagree maybe?

4. Can't remember any times in particular. I am not too pushy, and they live with their mistakes, and I think less of them. Often people have trouble facing their own ways and continue to act indecently towards others. Oh, I often do force authority to agree with me to enforce my will on the other person, my favorite.

5. Well, tell your beliefs behind such an action and leave it at that, move on. If you know you're wrong but you are arguing for the sport of it then you are a lost cause, and continue to do as you please. Your friend is going to have to practice discernment of others morals because often they differ.

6. Read up on the Enneagram type One in the subforum and understand how it fits the preferences of ISTJ, and maybe even the cognitive functions. From taking in the knowledge above you may have a better understanding of her reasoning for what she does.

[sparkles]

To clarify this isn't about anything I did to my friend. It's about a general choice I made that she decided was wrong. It's a fairly controversial topic so I don't want to go into more details about it right now.

And really, whether I was wrong in my choice or not, I don't really accept this style. I won't usually admit to being wrong if someone's trying to force that - least of all if I know the topic in question had no direct impact on the person. I admit to being wrong before someone tries to make me but once they try, good luck. I can be stubborn all day.

Trying to make me admit to being wrong is what I experience as a win/lose goal. It tramples my preference for win/win in my interactions, so I get rigid about accepting the win/lose.

For the record, I see the issue exactly as she does. I've also communicated that to her in a few ways, pointing out specifically how her point of view is the same as other things I've said to her. I just haven't admitted to being wrong because her approach is like shaming me and I rebel against that crap.

[sparkles]

It's not worth your time or mental energy to get in a battle of wills over it.

Say you're sorry, give the person space, and move on with your life (i.e., no grudges).

Oh I'm not one for grudges anyway. I care for her and see her fondly, and I did even in the middle of this conflict. I can recognize when my feelings in a specific moment are separate from my overall sentiment.

As for the rest of what I took from your post, I have to say that is the rub of this. It is all about a battle of wills, unfortunately. I have a very hard time submitting to forceful assertion of wrongness. Even if it soaks up some time and energy and stresses me out, I just ... don't bring myself to do that.

I would be more likely to say, you want me to admit I was wrong, I'm not going to do that as long as you're trying to make me. You can keep talking at me (yes, AT me not WITH me, no desire to understand or even listen to what I say just pushing a sense of right at me), but don't count on me admitting to being wrong, purely because I don't submit to such forced assertions. Have a good one and come back to me when you've decided to let this go.

On a side note, I appreciate the effort you took to organize your questions into bullet points

You're welcome!

[kittychris07]

As an ISXJ (not sure about F or T), I have occasionally engaged in this sort of conflict. With time I have learned to soften up and try to see situations from different viewpoints. But, if I have decided that someone has bad character (because of MULTIPLE actions, not one action), then that person would not be able to persuade me that his or her character is good except by showing me that he or she does in fact have good character by acting in a way that I respect. But, when I have gone to the extreme of thinking people have bad character, I am at the point that I don't want to have a relationship with those people anymore.

Another thing is that if I think someone has bad character (or committed an "unethcial action" ) and there is a conflict about it, I'll keep quiet about it, unless asked for my opinion about the situation. I'm not going to sacrifice my authenticity by trying to be polite about it, so I will say my opinion.

I think that Wake and OutofAmmo have sufficiently covered how to handle the situation.

[MBTI Enthusiast]

1) Have you been on either side of such a conflict before?
Yes. I have been on the side of your "ISTJ" friend.

(2) Is it possible to get someone who's so focused on proving that they are right and you are wrong to shift their goal, and if so, how?
It would be hard. If she is an ISTJ, then she is probably set in her ways. This has a lot to do with being a J. However, there is a difference between forcing someone to say that they are wrong and just thinking to yourself that they are wrong. I couldn't see myself doing the former.

(3) Is it possible to get someone who views a topic rigidly to open up for some breathing room, and if so, how?
Hmm. It would be difficult to get her to actually change her views, but if you just want her to hear you out, then I don't see why that wouldn't be possible. Does she not even listen to you?

(4) If you have been on the side of my friend, has anyone ever said something to you that got you to quit persisting with your goal of being right and having them admit they were wrong? What did they say to lead to this?
I have never forced anyone to admit that I am right and they are wrong. I try to convince them, but if they won't accept it, I don't force it upon them. I might be different than other ISTJs on this aspect, though.

(5) Any ideas for how I could handle such conflicts better? Admitting to being wrong just isn't an option. Even if that person is right, the approach of trying to MAKE me wrong leads to a power struggle and I refuse out of principle. If I was wrong in what I did, I am far more likely to admit it on my own, and far less likely to if the person is trying to make me.
Have you tried explaining to her how her forceful opinions and desire to make you admit defeat make you feel? She may not realize that she is hurting you in her self-righteousness. If she values you as a friend, she should stop (hopefully).

(6) Anything else of note for you reading this?
I would definitely try to explain to her that a person is not made up purely of their behaviors. I get caught with the same thinking that "bad" actions = "bad" people, and sometimes I need to be reminded that this is not the case. Try to explain this concept to her and hopefully she will do some introspection and be more accepting in the future.

[sparkles]

So the consensus here for how to handle such a dynamic is to admit to being wrong?

Hmm. I dunno about that. You can't think of any alternate ways to deal with it aside from proving alternate views if the person is open enough for that?

If someone did get you to shift your perspective once you reflected later, would you admit to that or would you not admit to that?

I find it interesting that some of you seem to be saying you're quick to make a character assessment from a single behavior. No room for fallibility and for seeing the error of one's ways? Or is it that the person must communicate that to you in words? Is it impossible for someone to regain your respect after one choice you disapprove of even if they also reveal integrity otherwise?

@Wake : I agree with you about what that mechanic did. Messed up. I'm all for being just.

[Out0fAmmo]

So the consensus here for how to handle such a dynamic is to admit to being wrong?

Hmm. I dunno about that. You can't think of any alternate ways to deal with it aside from proving alternate views if the person is open enough for that?

If someone did get you to shift your perspective once you reflected later, would you admit to that or would you not admit to that?

If I realized that I was wrong, and I had respect/cared for the person I was talking to, yeah, I would admit I was wrong. Having said that, this situation doesn't come up very often, because I'm careful not to verbally judge people too much. Shouldn't throw stones in a glass house, right?

I find it interesting that some of you seem to be saying you're quick to make a character assessment from a single behavior. No room for fallibility and for seeing the error of one's ways? Or is it that the person must communicate that to you in words? Is it impossible for someone to regain your respect after one choice you disapprove of even if they also reveal integrity otherwise?.

I see it as the dark side of J. Once I've made up my mind about something, it's very hard (but not impossible) to change it. Bear in mind that I'm not very good at handling these kind of conflicts, which is why my best advice is to avoid them whenever possible.

[Wake]

So the consensus here for how to handle such a dynamic is to admit to being wrong?

Hmm. I dunno about that. You can't think of any alternate ways to deal with it?

I find it interesting that some of you seem to be saying you're quick to make a character assessment from a single behavior. No room for fallibility and for seeing the error of one's ways? Or is it that the person must communicate that to you in words? Is it impossible for someone to regain your respect after one choice you disapprove of even if they also reveal integrity otherwise?

Depends on the issue. Normally I consider a part of someone to be corrupt. Their judgment is skewed because they can't get past something, be it their own needs compared to others more desperate needs or their own feelings vs logic.

I say what people need to hear (Fi), and your attitude towards this maybe a reaction based on her lacking use of Fe when approaching this issue. ISFJ's can be pushy like this also if they're a type 1 as Kittychris has shown