A Lengthy and Subjective Guide for Understanding a Relationship with me, an ISTJ Guy

joe_the_buckeye · Nov 16, 2013

Hi everybody, I know there’s a ton of information on here about this topic, but I know it’s been helpful for me to read people’s individual advice, as it has helped me gain a greater understanding of how other people function, not just as a type, but as individuals. So, I went ahead and wrote a rather comprehensive guide about myself hoping that this would be useful for other types to learn more about how I function. I hope someone out there finds this as useful as I’ve found many posts on here. I don’t mean this to be a guide for dating and understanding all ISTJs, as much as I hope that it gives insight into understanding me, but I think I’m a pretty normal ISTJ, so some of this might be helpful as far as understanding the type as well.

Hope this is helpful,

Joe

Dear non-ISTJ,

Let’s start at the beginning. So you just met me—a nice, solid, average, somewhat nerdy ISTJ guy—and you’d like to get to know me better, but you’re not quite sure how I feel about you. Take it from me; if I keep finding time to talk to you and I seem at least a little bit happy when I interact with you, I like you. It’s really that simple. Don’t overthink me. I’m kind of like Bert from Mary Poppins; I talk to who I like, and like who I talk to. But don’t expect some sort of nervous excitement from me—I’m just not wired that way. Unless I’m absolutely head-over-heels in love with you and completely comfortable around you, I’m not likely to be bubbly and exuberant. So don’t assume that just because I’m not gushing with emotion, I’m not into you. Quick caveat here: I will also find time to talk to people whom I find to be interesting, fun, intelligent, or who just bring out a good side of me. I may not feel any romantic feelings towards you, just because I’m talking to you all the time. I might just find you interesting. Don’t lose heart though (pun intended), if I like you in an impersonal manner, you’ve got a great chance at making that into a deeper relationship if you want things to take that direction. So be encouraged—if I’m talking to you and seem to enjoy it at least a little bit, you’ve got more than a fighting chance. I don’t tend to fall in love with people quickly; it’s a process that will take some time. But the good news is once you’ve got me hooked, you don’t have to worry about me running off on you unless something really serious (think death) ends the relationship.
Anyway, so you’ve made first contact with me and I keep talking to you and seem to like you, but I’m just not making the move. And you’re sitting there thinking: “What the heck is up with this guy? What’s he waiting for?” Well, here’s what I’m thinking:

First of all, making the decision to begin a relationship is one of the most serious decisions I’m going to make. I put endless thought into all sorts of everyday decisions. I think and plan everything I do. I might spend days mentally deliberating the most trivial of issues. Now think about how much thoughtful introspection goes into beginning a romantic relationship with someone. Yeah, I’m crazy, I know. I’ll spend weeks debating the pros and cons of decisions of minor decisions, so it’s going to take me a very long time to decide whether I want a relationship with you or not. Chances are, I’m still thinking about it. Just a quick remark here: while I try to think rationally about decisions that might be emotionally driven for other people, this doesn’t mean that I don’t have feelings. I have them to abundance. I just tend to block them out when I’m making an important decision for the sake of retaining my objectivity. This is what makes me adept at making difficult decisions, but it also tends to make me look like an emotionless robot. I’m not though—I have incredibly strong feelings inside—I just choose not to allow those feelings to determine my course of action. I have a heart; I just tend to avoid using it to make my decisions. You might say I’m prudent to a fault. Also, if you feel like this approach towards deciding to deepen a relationship is decidedly unromantic, you’re probably correct (at least using the societal definition of romantic)—but feel comforted in that I won’t allow the relationship to deepen the unless I have very real feelings for you. I don’t make decisions with my heart, but my heart will inform my mind of my feelings, in which case I will choose to advance the relationship if there aren’t any other serious issues that I observe that would give me reason to doubt the wisdom of doing so (i.e. serious character flaws, a bad reputation, etc.). In summary then, I do have feelings. I don’t let feelings make my decisions. But I will take those feelings into account when I make my decision. All this takes a while. So be patient and don’t try to push me into things. If I truly like you, just keep being yourself—it’ll work out, don’t worry. Worrying’s my specialty, let me handle it for you...

And here’s the other thing there’s a good chance I’m thinking: I’m thinking about what you’re thinking! I’m not necessarily self-confident when it comes to relationships. Really, I’m confident in everything but relationships. It’s not that I have bad self-esteem; it’s just that I tend to be afraid of rejection and have absolutely no social perception and intuition. I almost guarantee I have idea how you feel about me unless you tell me. I may possibly (I’m rather doubtful about this) notice that you tend to be around me a lot, that you seem to be happy around me, that you make eye contact with me regularly, but even if I do notice it, I’m going to attribute it to any other reason but you liking me in a romantic manner. I’m worse at making decisions based solely off of intuition than Brandon Weeden is at playing quarterback. It’s not necessarily that I’m blind (I tend to observe everything); it’s just that I never presume, and never make my decisions (especially serious decisions) on non-factually based observation. I need the hard facts. Otherwise, it’ll be extremely difficult for me to feel confident enough that I’ve interpreted your hint to me that it’s okay to take the next step. I’m going to analyze every single action you make, but unless there’s some serious factual basis that I can use I’m not going to accept my analysis as an accurate portrayal of your feelings—in which case I will keep overanalyzing every single thing you do, wondering if you really like me or not. You may have made things extremely clear hinting, but I probably still have no idea and even if I do, I still doubt my intuition so much that it’d take an awful lot to make me feel confident enough to take action based on that intuition. Moral of the story—I never trust my intuition, so I don't pick up hints as well as some other people. So keep that in mind.

Alright, so you've sent that message but I'm still not making the move. You're getting impatient waiting for a terribly long time, and you’re getting frustrated because I’m not doing anything. Here’s what to do. First, if you’re pretty confident I like you, and I’m not making a move, set me up for an opportunity. Say something like “Hey, [ideally some common friends] and I are [doing a certain activity/going to a certain restaurant/etc.] at a [a specific date], I’d love it if you’d come along with us. Check your calendar!” Don’t make it look like a date and don’t put me in the position where I feel obligated to decide on the spot, just make it clear that you’re going to do something fun and you’d enjoy it if I came along. If you haven’t given me your number yet, give it to me now and tell me to shoot you a text when I know whether I’m open or not. This kills two birds with one stone—you’ve engaged me in a non-threatening and natural manner by giving me both a way out and time to decide, and you’ve laid the groundwork for deepening the relationship through one of my more comfortable means of communication. It’s often much easier for me to communicate via the written word than it is verbally (it’s not that I’m uncomfortable talking, it’s just that when it comes to emotions, it takes longer for me to get used to verbal expression). If an approach like this doesn’t work, another option would be to try and find some ulterior and innocent motive for obtaining my number. Then, text or email away about fun things or things you find interesting, and if I’m interested in you, I’ll keep things going. I’m a traditionalist, and it’s very important to me to feel like the initiator and the leader in a relationship, I’m just terrible at it and sometimes need a lot of encouragement. Try to avoid asking me out directly, but you have all sorts of leeway as long as I can still persuade myself I’m doing things the right way. After a while, I’ll make that move you were waiting for.

Also, just something to remember in regards to wooing me—I may seem icy, but that ice is often a lot thinner than you’d imagine, and often it’s most easily broken by means of more distant forms of communication that we’re more comfortable with. I plan everything and feel most comfortable communicating in ways that allow me plenty of time to plan what I have to say. Sometimes texting, emailing, chatting, etc., is the easiest way to break through to me. There’s a good chance though, that if you adopt this tactic, I’m going to ask you out for the first time via written communication, so keep that in mind. Also as something to remember—you may observe a disconnect between my emotional openness via written communication and when I’m physically in your presence. Don’t worry about that; I’m just growing more comfortable with you. Take my communication via the written word at face value. I mean exactly what I write, I just haven’t come to the point where I’m equally comfortable expressing my feelings through words. I might tell you I love you through text before I say the words. But I mean it all the same. And the verbal expression will come; it just takes time for me. In the meantime, keep focusing on making me feel comfortable.

Oh, and lastly, if I’m still not making a move, keep the group mutual activities thing up for a while. If you have to call in a few favors from friends to keep things from looking like a date, do it. If you want me to make a move, do whatever you can to make me feel comfortable with you, because that’s the only way that move is going to happen.

Okay, so let’s skip to the part where the relationship has begun.

A few things to remember when you’re dealing with me:

First, always be clear exactly as to what you need/want from the relationship and the situation. I know for a lot of you, this takes a lot of the romance out of doing things…it means so much more for someone to notice your needs and take action without you asking, right? Well, if that’s something you need from a relationship, I strongly encourage you to avoid dating me. I’ll do my best, but I’m horrible at sensing what you are feeling. If you don’t tell me outright, I very likely don't know what you’re thinking and have absolutely no idea how to help you. But here’s the key thing to remember: it’s not because I don’t care. That idea almost bears repeating. I do care. I really do. I just have the worst time in the world knowing what people are feeling unless they tell me, and I don’t normally do well when it comes to knowing how to help that person. If you’re having a problem and all you want me to do is just listen and be supportive, tell me—don’t expect me to just know. Say these words: “Dear, I’m going through a hard time right now with _____, but I just want you to listen and be supportive.” If you want a different response, or you want more than that, just add whatever you desire on to that request. I think you’ll find I will respond extremely well to a straight-forward approach like that. I love to help people and I love to be there for those I love, it’s just that I’m terrible at knowing what people want unless they tell me. So please, tell me the problem and tell me how to respond—not only will I come through for you every time, you’ll be amazed by the lengths I’ll go to in order to help you. I’m a duty-fulfiller for a reason, and I’ll go to the ends of the earth to fulfill a duty like that to someone I love. In summary, make it a top priority to always be clear exactly what you’re looking for in terms of emotional support, because otherwise I have no idea what to do. Trust me, I won’t take it the wrong way, and I won’t feel insulted because you’re stating the obvious to me. The unspoken need might seem obvious to you and everyone else, 9 times out of 10 I have no idea it even exists. And 99 times out of a 100, I don't know how to respond.

Second, remember and observe how I show my affection for people. It’s really not that complicated, or that hard to see once you know what to look for. I will show you that I love you by doing things like calling you when I told you I would, being on time when we meet, helping you with various tasks, and providing for you. I sometimes equate duty-fulfilling with love. I don’t tend to be emotionally effusive from a verbal standpoint—I tend to see that as a lesser and more superficial way of demonstrating my affection—and I value authenticity above all things. And because I value authenticity above all things, I generally display my affections through actions rather than words. Please try to remember this when you feel like I don’t seem to be as loving from a verbal standpoint as other men. It’s not that I don’t love you; it’s just that I dislike demonstrating my love for you in that manner. Also, this also goes both ways for me. Because I show my love to you through keeping my commitments to you, it’s very important to me that you keep your commitments to me. I tend to associate failure to complete a duty with a lack of true affection and I will feel hurt (I may not say anything, but I will be hurt nonetheless), if you knowingly and without good reason, fail to fulfill your commitments to me. If you don’t think you will be able to fulfill certain promises to me, avoid making them. If you say you are going to call or meet me somewhere at 10:00, do your absolute best to call me or meet me there at 10:00, even if that means setting an alarm on your watch to help you remember. It won’t bother me that you had to set an alarm to remember because that shows me that you cared enough to plan ahead to spend time with me. I plan everything out, and I take that Boy Scout mentality to another level when I’m in a romantic relationship by planning and thinking about everything—so nothing makes me feel better than to know that the person I love was doing the same.

Third, do your best to engage with me on topics that I’m interested in (be assured, I’ll reciprocate). This can be done in in all sorts of different ways, but it’s very important to me, not that you’re the most brilliant astrophysicist out there, but that you care enough me to be interested in my interests. Here’s the great thing though—I’m extremely forgiving if I can see that you’re trying to learn. You don’t have to know everything—in fact, I like it when you don’t because there’s nothing I love more than to explain things to you. I don’t think you’re stupid for asking questions, because I love answering them! It makes me feel great and reinforces me because I know two things are true then: (1) You care about me (because you care about my interests), and (2) You are authentic. I love authentic people so much more than I love smart people. You don’t have to be brilliant or “book-smart” to be with me, you just need to show that you value my interests enough to interest yourself in and learn about them. But if there’s one thing I can’t stress enough, it’s to avoid pretending to know something you really don’t. I might have no idea when it comes to feelings, but I can see pretentiousness a mile off and it repulses me to no end. The great thing to know though is that there is no faster way to my heart than to ask me questions—even stupid ones. I love to know that my opinion is valued and appreciated. Oh and on that note, if I take a long time to explain something to you, make sure you listen and don’t get distracted. I’m going to be forgiving because that’s my nature, but it’ll hurt me to know that you weren’t sufficiently interested in what I had to say to stay involved. So do your best to be attentive and I can assure you, I’ll be attentive to you when you have something to say (that’s pretty much what I’m best at). Anyway, basically if you want to win my heart, do two things: (1) Ask me questions, and (2) Be yourself.

Isn’t it nice how simple I am in what I’m looking for in a woman? And once you get me, I’m not letting you go. Ever.

I love you more than anything in this world, dear. I can’t wait to meet you.

Sincerely,

--An ISTJ Guy

niss · Nov 16, 2013

Holy Moly! A very accurate description of an ISTJ mindset toward dating and romance. Should be required reading for every person that comes in here asking about "their" ISTJ.

bluefizzure · Nov 16, 2013

Agreed! We should publish this.

lovelybre18 · Nov 16, 2013

Wow this guide is awesome, my boyfriend is an ISTJ and this pretty much describes him to a T!

Donovan · Nov 16, 2013

thanks @joe_the_buckeye, that really clears some things up.

i have a few questions that aren't necessarily related to a relationship in an intimate sense, but are still "relational". mind if i ask them here, to get some insight and advice?

joe_the_buckeye · Nov 16, 2013

Nope, I don't mind at all. Fire away, man. Hope you get the answers you're looking for.

Donovan · Nov 17, 2013

a "friend" of mine (that's an ISTJ) recently had to go to a family member's funeral. she mentioned the death, brushed it off casually, and even though there wasn't any overt sign of pain, it was obvious that it was there all the same--but so was the unspoken "don't talk to me about it/let's change the subject".

i've had a similar experience with an actual ISTJ-friend, but since we were already comfortable with each other, we could speak about it freely. in this case, i don't really know her well enough to do anything... and really, it's not as if anything needs to be, or even can be done--but all the same i'd like to let her know that, "hey, this person that you told this pretty private information to--he hasn't forgotten, nor has he just brushed it aside--he actually does care about your situation". (i find, even for those tertiary Fi-types, that knowing other people care about your "adjustment" to something difficult can be a pick-me-up that they'll never ask for).

i really also don't want to intrude on this either, so i just took a few pictures of "coping"/"get well cards" while i was at work and sent them to her; whatever i thought would make her laugh.

... as usual, i really don't even know what i'm asking/looking for (until i just happen upon it)... i guess i'll just casually inquire the next time i see her and gauge from there...?

Anubis · Nov 16, 2013

SO MANY WORDS! It was interesting to read though because any ISTJ I know IRL would never go that deep face-to-face. I like you guys and think you have a really interesting perspective, I just wish you'd assert yourselves more without being over the top.

...As long as they're not like Hank from King of the Hill... ;D

Morphyous · Nov 17, 2013

In much fewer words, we are capable of being very dependable and don't want to be taken as fools because of it.

datMBTIguy · Nov 18, 2013

Great post. The last 2 main paragraphs resonate so much with me that I'm having to fight the urge to send them to my girlfriend - not that she isn't great at recognizing those things already, but it's just so spot-on that I feel like someone I know needs to read it

SublimeSerendipity · Nov 19, 2013

Great post @joe_the_buckeye (especially the Weeden reference....yay for Cleveland references, even if their sole purpose is self-deprecating!!). It definitely resonates with how my boyfriend is, though we met on OkCupid so we didn't have as complicated of a courting phase since we both were on the site looking for a relationship -- though it did take him a while to message me initially, and then I was the one who bit the bullet and asked him out first!. But the rest of what you said - spot on.

joe_the_buckeye · Nov 20, 2013

Haha, seems like Cleveland references are self-deprecatory by their very nature sometimes...

Glad you and your boyfriend were able to work things out. Pretty neat to see an ENFP with an ISTJ--I bet you both bring out a lot out of each other. I dated an ESFP for a couple months (my only real relationship), and I was amazed how much fun I had when I was around her. I bet your boyfriend feels similarly. =)

And I appreciate the kind words from everyone. I hope my novel helps someone out there gain a greater understanding of guys like me.

niss · Nov 21, 2013

joe_the_buckeye said:
Pretty neat to see an ENFP with an ISTJ--I bet you both bring out a lot out of each other.

I once knew a couple like that.

Das Brechen · Nov 21, 2013

I don't see myself in any of this at all. Maybe when I was younger, probably. Seeing as this explicitly was posted as subjective, I won't go further into it. I'm glad everyone else is getting use out of it and so I would want to see this stickied as well if it helps folks and decreases the "What are ISTJs like" type of questions.

joe_the_buckeye · Nov 21, 2013

Lol, that was great, I hadn't seen that before.

And yet, I still feel kind of like this about my hometown...

[Guess I can't post videos until I get to 15 posts, but Patrick Stump's "This City" was what I wanted to put here lol]

I can see how the E-I battle can be an issue for you both. It really is exhausting for me to come home and then go back out somewhere or spend a long time talking with someone after a long day. Generally I just want to sit and read or watch some game on TV. And that's despite the fact that I'm actually pretty split on my E/I and have tested as an ENTJ and an ESTJ before. Really, I enjoy social interaction, I just find it exhausting after a while. Most of my casual acquaintances would probably never guess I was an ISTJ based on their limited knowledge of me. Actually, it's kind of funny, but I think people perceive me as an extrovert because I sometimes look at social interaction as my duty lol. I often try to fill ("try" being the key word in this sentence) whatever role I diagnose is necessary in each social context. If I'm in a position where someone needs to start the conversation, I do that--if I'm in a position where that's unnecessary, I generally listen attentively and offer my point of view when I feel it's worth presenting. Or if I'm hosting a party, and I notice someone who's not involved, I will generally suck it up and do my duty by engaging them. It doesn't come easy for me, and I find it generally tiring, but I do my best. It amazes me when I find out other people actually find these types of experiences to be invigorating and energizing. Frankly, I'm envious lol.

Sounds like your boyfriend is just a little more introverted than me, but I'm sure he appreciates you pushing him to engage more of the world (at least to some degree--I'm sure his idea of what that means isn't the same as yours haha). One of my biggest weaknesses is that I tend to get so stuck in the rut of my daily routines that I rarely even think about changing anything, and even if I'm dissatisfied with something about my status quo, I rarely step out and be proactive towards making changes in my life. I just need a good shove to get out there and get going--especially when I feel no internal obligation to do so. That's what I like about extroverts--you all force me out of my comfort zone and into places where I can grow. Makes life more fun and interesting--even if I'm sometimes shocked by how little you guys plan and think about things...sometimes I think people with that kind of personality have a lot simpler and easier lives lol.

But, I just think it's cool to see two complete opposites together--seems like a great way to balance out the weaknesses of both types if you can break past the communication problems. And man, I know I have ton of weaknesses to balance out...guess I need to find a nice, solid ENFP girl to team up with. :happy:

And hey, I sometimes wonder if God hates Cleveland sports, but it's my city, and I love it. And I couldn't care less where Joakim Noah wants to vacation...:laughing:

Treblemaker · Nov 23, 2013

My goodness, Mr. ISTJ, you seem very sweet and sensitive. I have to open my mind a LOT. Most of the ISTJs with whom I have interacted have been (esp. the females) bossy, domineering, close-minded, hyper-conservative, uncreative, RigidRigidRigid, and extremely judgmental. Lots of cold anger when people approach life differently. We ENFPs, who are a lot like Tigger from Winnie the Pooh, generally are not well-received.

But...you sound very different. Nice to meet you!

joe_the_buckeye · Nov 24, 2013

Glad to hear it! People like you are exactly the reason I wrote it, so I'm glad to hear it helped you open your mind to us ISTJ guys a little bit. And I like Tigger--he just needs to get his work done before he parties... =)

Ballast · Nov 24, 2013

This is lovely. Thanks a lot!

Just had a few thoughts/questions.

joe_the_buckeye said:
Alright, so you've sent that message but I'm still not making the move. You're getting impatient waiting for a terribly long time, and you’re getting frustrated because I’m not doing anything. Here’s what to do. First, if you’re pretty confident I like you, and I’m not making a move, set me up for an opportunity. ... I’m a traditionalist, and it’s very important to me to feel like the initiator and the leader in a relationship, I’m just terrible at it and sometimes need a lot of encouragement. Try to avoid asking me out directly, but you have all sorts of leeway as long as I can still persuade myself I’m doing things the right way. After a while, I’ll make that move you were waiting for.

It's confusing to me to say you want things done a certain way (you want to be in control, initiate, and lead) but then hesitate to make any of the first moves, thus requiring the other person to make the first move, but not directly, because you still want to be fully in control. If you want to be in control, why not just...act? It is a long process for me to decide on something, to analyze, to deliberate, to weigh everything. But once I want something and I've decided on it, that's it.

No, I understand being afraid of rejection and uncertain of the other party's feelings, absolutely. But I think this is a bit of a double standard. You can't be both the initiator and the passive recipient at the same time. And as an INTJ, I can't wrap my head around the protocol of asking you out--only indirectly and with other friends, preferably in a written-communication format, for an unspecified amount of time with little in the way of exacting confirmation from you in terms of where you see things going--to gauge your interest and let you feel like you're in control while you hang back and don't initiate things yourself. The above requires exactly the kind of mind-reading you yourself struggle with in others. You, like you state, would have to tell me directly how you want to be asked out and how not to rush you.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I think you speak for a lot of people in general regarding how quickly to take things and how soon to act on a decision once it's been made, and while both ISTJs and INTJs take the same kinds of things seriously and deliberate intensely on a decision, it seems maybe we have different approaches. I have the issue of being very impatient and very, well...goal-oriented when I've set my sights on something. It's not that I'm aggressive, heavens no. I'm as shy and reserved and hesitant with relationships as anyone. But once I've made up my mind, I don't dally. I don't dither. I'm afraid that if I did, the opportunity would pass me by. And more than anything, I would rather know for certain what to expect and what the parameters are then spend any more time in limbo. (Which may lead me to act too soon in defining those parameters--not just in terms of labeling the relationship but in any situation where this might be applicable. And I'm just as quick to define them unfavorably towards my wishes as favorably because I'm interested in knowing the parameters, period. Whereas others would rather have no definition than the wrong definition, or a definition they might end up having to change later.)

I only say this because if there were a type I'd want to get serious about understanding, relationship-wise, it'd be this one. We're so similar and just different enough to not realize when we're saying the same thing but differently or coming at it from different angles. And of course, I'm seeing intuitive patterns and abstract data and potentials that add other dimensions (or possibly confusion) to any given situation wherein I'm needing to make a decision.

That aside, what kinds of conversations do you like to have when you're getting to know someone you're interested in? What sorts of things would you like to talk about and what sorts of things would you rather not talk about?

Thanks for the lovely insights, again. This was great.

joe_the_buckeye · Nov 24, 2013

@Ballast

Thanks for the kind words, I'm glad you enjoyed my post. I'm not sure how type-specific any of my answers below are, but maybe someone else here will have some better input as far as the ISTJ type is concerned. I'm pretty new at MBTI, so I'm not sure I'm qualified to present the ISTJ perspective--so in that vein, I mean all of this from my individual, rather than type, perspective.

It is confusing and I fully admit the double standard. Largely though, the scenario of pseudo-initiation (I'm going to start using that word in real life now lol) I was proposing was meant as a solution to impatience with my slowness in initiating by myself. The best-case scenario for me would be to be around a girl in whom I'm interested in a group context (at least semi-incidentally) for an extended period of time--giving me the opportunity to get to know her and have the chance to observe the way she responds to me. Ideally then, I'll have a chance to test the waters (mild flirtation/conversation/etc.) and gauge the girl's interest. Quite likely, I'll use the same pseudo-initiation process I described (or something similar) with the girl and see how that works. If the girl responds well (general observations might include: smiles when I make eye contact, makes an effort to talk to me, responds quickly to my texts, makes conversation when I initiate contact via text, is interested in group activities that I'm involved in, etc.), I'll take action and tell her that I'd like to get to know her better and ask her if that's something she'd be interested in and comfortable with (in which case I'll then ask her father for permission, if possible and appropriate).

Also, just for the record, if I try something like this and she declines, I will be very unlikely to try again, unless she makes an effort to demonstrate that her feelings have changed. I base my decisions of past experience, so if past experience indicates likely failure, I'm probably not going to try again unless something happens that clearly indicates a changed perspective (think: she proposes to me...) :laughing: That's overstating it, but you get the point.

Semi-relevant side note: Playing hard-to-get is counter-productive if you're trying to get me interested in you. I might find it attractive and mysterious, but I will probably interpret it as exactly what it appears to be (disinterest) and move on. I'm not generally drawn to girls who aren't interested in me (platonically or romantically), and I take things at face-value, so just something to keep in mind. I tend to translate hard-to-get to not-worth-trying-for.

Oh, and girls of all types out there, if you're not interested, show some mercy (but be clear) to the poor ISTJ guy who's throwing himself at your feet. It took me a long time to get to that point...as in, well...you have no idea. :laughing:

As far as definition is concerned, I do like things to be very clear. But if I feel like it's time to define a relationship, I'll bring up the topic. Prior to the time I tell the girl of my interest in getting to know her better, I'm not anxious to define anything, however. I'd rather let things take their course and when I feel sure of my own decision, and at least fairly confident of the girl's response, take the step of informing her of my interest and seeing how she feels.

After that has taken place, I wouldn't have any problem whatsoever with the girl asking me where I felt things were going, but I'd feel terrible that I hadn't been clear enough and hadn't brought up the topic first. I firmly believe it's my responsibility, once a relationship has begun, to be explicitly clear as far as my own feelings. And you know how ISTJs are about responsibilities... :laughing:

If I've taken that step of asking the girl for permission to get to know her better, then from then on, I feel it's my responsibility to make sure she understands how I think things are going. I might be hard to read, because I'm not always open about my emotions, but I would absolutely try to make my intentions clear and do my best to keep her informed. Once I've stated my interest in a girl, I don't want to make her have to guess about where I think things are headed. And to be perfectly honest, if I've made it past the step of telling her how I feel and asking her if she's interested, I'm thinking long-term. But, I'm sure other ISTJ guys would do things entirely differently, so please don't interpret this as a guide to the ISTJ type.

Conversations: Hmm...really, I'm comfortable talking about basically anything (as long as it's appropriate). I enjoy sports, authors from Dostoevsky to Twain to C.S. Lewis, politics, news stories, philosophy, jokes, funny stories, people, hobbies, deals, technologies, etc. Actually, I've heard that ISTJs aren't supposed to enjoy abstract or theoretical conversations since that's supposedly an N trait, but I actually find those types of conversations to be interesting as well. If you ask me what book I'd want if I was stranded on a desert island, I'll give you an answer (I stole this from G.K. Chesterton, but FYI, it's Boat-Building for Dummies).

Really, I think I enjoy talking about the same things as other guys--and although I'm generally most comfortable talking about more impersonal things, I don't mind diving into a personal topic as long as it's with someone with whom I feel comfortable. I'm not going to bare my soul before a casual friend lol. I'm not sure exactly what I'd dislike talking about (obviously not the latest fashion trends, but that's because I'm a guy, not because I'm ISTJ), but I think it really depends on how much I know the person to whom I'm speaking. I can talk to my inner circle about basically anything--to people outside of that inner circle, I prefer impersonal topics, or else I can sometimes approach personal topics from an impersonal perspective (I fully recognize how pathetic this makes me sound, but it's true).

Again, this is my personal perspective, and I don't mean this to be ISTJ-specific, but maybe you'll find it interesting/helpful and perhaps some other ISTJs out there will chime in. Haha and with the novels I keep writing on here, I'm pretty sure my internet personality type isn't ISTJ...

Joe

Ballast · Nov 24, 2013

The first person I had a serious relationship with was an ISTJ and it was...well. I'm never sure if the problem was that we were too similar or too different. But those feelings stick with you after your first relationship termination and so I find myself wanting to undersand how we were both approaching things from a type perspective. Especially because, what can I say, this is a pretty attractive type. What's not to like?

joe_the_buckeye said:
It is confusing and I fully admit the double standard. Largely though, the scenario of pseudo-initiation (I'm going to start using that word in real life now lol) I was proposing was meant as a solution to impatience with my slowness in initiating by myself. The best-case scenario for me would be to be around a girl in whom I'm interested in a group context (at least semi-incidentally) for an extended period of time--giving me the opportunity to get to know her and have the chance to observe the way she responds to me. Ideally then, I'll have a chance to test the waters (mild flirtation/conversation/etc.) and gauge the girl's interest. Quite likely, I'll use the same pseudo-initiation process I described (or something similar) with the girl and see how that works. If the girl responds well (general observations might include: smiles when I make eye contact, makes an effort to talk to me, responds quickly to my texts, makes conversation when I initiate contact via text, is interested in group activities that I'm involved in, etc.), I'll take action and tell her that I'd like to get to know her better and ask her if that's something she'd be interested in and comfortable with (in which case I'll then ask her father for permission, if possible and appropriate).

The person I was with didn't quite go as far as asking my father (that might have seemed confusing and strange to my dad and I both) but he had a bit of that...I don't know, sort of traditional view of approaching romance and courtship. As a person accustomed to the emotional expression and life attitude of ISTPs, I found my ISTJ's expression of romance uncomfortable. I guess looking back it was gentlemanly or sweet but I found it unnerving. He was, of course, the type to settle right back into his comfortable routine where romance isn't much of a regular part (like me) but at the beginning I didn't know what to do with his written expression of affection towards me. I get nervous around traditional courtship manuevers. I can't help but see courtship and chivalry as disingenuous even if I myself am very long term minded when I decide to pursue a relationship. I think I see any temporary romantic action which is meant to be a means to an end as the middleman, and let's cut out the middleman and just get to the point: this is what we can expect from each other.

Also, just for the record, if I try something like this and she declines, I will be very unlikely to try again, unless she makes an effort to demonstrate that her feelings have changed. I base my decisions of past experience, so if past experience indicates likely failure, I'm probably not going to try again unless something happens that clearly indicates a changed perspective (think: she proposes to me...) :laughing: That's overstating it, but you get the point.

Same, I am very cautious about putting myself where I am not wanted.

Semi-relevant side note: Playing hard-to-get is counter-productive if you're trying to get me interested in you. I might find it attractive and mysterious, but I will probably interpret it as exactly what it appears to be (disinterest) and move on. I'm not generally drawn to girls who aren't interested in me (platonically or romantically), and I take things at face-value, so just something to keep in mind. I tend to translate hard-to-get to not-worth-trying-for.

Absolutely same.

:laughing: As far as definition is concerned, I do like things to be very clear. But if I feel like it's time to define a relationship, I'll bring up the topic. Prior to the time I tell the girl of my interest in getting to know her better, I'm not anxious to define anything, however. I'd rather let things take their course and when I feel sure of my own decision, and at least fairly confident of the girl's response, take the step of informing her of my interest and seeing how she feels.

After that has taken place, I wouldn't have any problem whatsoever with the girl asking me where I felt things were going, but I'd feel terrible that I hadn't been clear enough and hadn't brought up the topic first. I firmly believe it's my responsibility, once a relationship has begun, to be explicitly clear as far as my own feelings. And you know how ISTJs are about responsibilities... :laughing:

If I've taken that step of asking the girl for permission to get to know her better, then from then on, I feel it's my responsibility to make sure she understands how I think things are going. I might be hard to read, because I'm not always open about my emotions, but I would absolutely try to make my intentions clear and do my best to keep her informed. Once I've stated my interest in a girl, I don't want to make her have to guess about where I think things are headed. And to be perfectly honest, if I've made it past the step of telling her how I feel and asking her if she's interested, I'm thinking long-term. But, I'm sure other ISTJ guys would do things entirely differently, so please don't interpret this as a guide to the ISTJ type.

That's good. And as I'm serious and long term minded, too, I do need to know that is what my partner of interest is thinking too. Why waste time on someone who isn't on the same page as me?

Conversations: Hmm...really, I'm comfortable talking about basically anything (as long as it's appropriate). I enjoy sports, authors from Dostoevsky to Twain to C.S. Lewis, politics, news stories, philosophy, jokes, funny stories, people, hobbies, deals, technologies, etc. Actually, I've heard that ISTJs aren't supposed to enjoy abstract or theoretical conversations since that's supposedly an N trait, but I actually find those types of conversations to be interesting as well. If you ask me what book I'd want if I was stranded on a desert island, I'll give you an answer (I stole this from G.K. Chesterton, but FYI, it's Boat-Building for Dummies).

Really, I think I enjoy talking about the same things as other guys--and although I'm generally most comfortable talking about more impersonal things, I don't mind diving into a personal topic as long as it's with someone with whom I feel comfortable. I'm not going to bare my soul before a casual friend lol. I'm not sure exactly what I'd dislike talking about (obviously not the latest fashion trends, but that's because I'm a guy, not because I'm ISTJ), but I think it really depends on how much I know the person to whom I'm speaking. I can talk to my inner circle about basically anything--to people outside of that inner circle, I prefer impersonal topics, or else I can sometimes approach personal topics from an impersonal perspective (I fully recognize how pathetic this makes me sound, but it's true).

Again, this is my personal perspective, and I don't mean this to be ISTJ-specific, but maybe you'll find it interesting/helpful and perhaps some other ISTJs out there will chime in. Haha and with the novels I keep writing on here, I'm pretty sure my internet personality type isn't ISTJ...

Sounds about right...I can't do small talk for very long but I do love to get into good conversations about any of my topics of interest. I'd guess a good sign for me would be having those really great conversations that are stimulating and interesting. I burn out so easily with human interaction otherwise.

*******

I think my prior ISTJ and I both had that distance in warming up to others and letting them in, but we did it in different ways. Once I was ready to see this relationship as something I wanted to do, I was in it to win it. He was genuinely interested but perhaps overwhelmed with my intensity once I felt like it was going to be a real thing, whereas I was overwhelmed with his intensity in the beginning. But both of us were slow to trust and slow to communicate what we needed and it just...yeah, it crumbled a bit.

But he was a good person with the same values about life and relationships, and that kind of thing is hard to ignore.

CSM · Nov 24, 2013

How is a person supposed to follow a post like that?

I mean holy crap @joe_the_buckeye, sometimes I wonder how exactly you get into my head, and also how you are able to say what's in my head so darn well.

Great post(s) and great thread.

snowbell · Nov 24, 2013

What a beautiful, insightful, well-written, and helpful post... Thank you so much for this...

joe_the_buckeye · Nov 25, 2013

@CSM Great minds… :laughing:
@Ballast

From what I’ve read, I identify quite a bit with the ISTJ guy you’ve described. I emphasize tradition (probably to a much greater degree), can be awkward when it comes to displays of affection, and can be distant at times. I just laughed and nodded when I read “he had a bit of that…I don’t know, sort of a traditional view of romance and courtship.” Yep, that’s me. :laughing:

I’m not sure if this helps, but I think I’d agree with you that courtship routines and actions are a sort of game or middleman as you call it. Here’s what I’d say though—for me, those sorts of actions are important for three reasons:

1. They send the message that I feel differently about this girl than I do about other girls. It’s hard for me to put that sort of thing into words sometimes and I generally prefer tangible displays of affection because they feel more substantive to me. Also, I feel that all men should behave chivalrously to women (remember, I’m a hardcore traditionalist), so in order to make the differentiation between an ordinary woman whom I have no feelings for and the one that I am pursuing, I will generally do even more for the one I’m in a relationship with (which could come lead to things coming across as excessive or over-the-top). Yes, these sorts of things can come off awkwardly, but if that happens, I generally turn it into a sort of running joke to avoid making things uncomfortable. But while I might turn it into a joke in order to make things less awkward, it’s still very important to me.

2. I feel like the direct approach, while logical in that it does get right to the point, just doesn’t feel right. I guess this falls back on how much I value tradition and past observation. Something about a direct approach that cuts out this sort of thing just seems incredibly unromantic. Even ISTJs like me value romance, and for me, chivalrous behavior is a type of romance. In fact, I might say it’s the only type of romance that comes naturally to me. So, it may have been a little bit unnerving (and uncomfortable, for him and you both, since it doesn’t seem like it worked especially well for either of you), I’d probably give him the benefit of the doubt here and call it his way of romancing you. Awkward, yes (sometimes incredibly so), but that’s how I am sometimes. The good thing is that while I’m often awkward, I’m generally equally authentic. Outward displays of affection don’t come easily, but when they do come, you can count on the fact that I mean exactly what I’m doing. Good with the bad, I guess.

3. In my own life, I’ve witnessed many healthy relationships where the man acts chivalrously towards the woman, not in order to manipulate the woman into thinking he’s something he’s not, but as fundamental part of the relationship that continues long past marriage. The point isn’t to play the game until I catch the woman; it’s to set a standard early on in the relationship that this is how much the woman means to me and to offer visible and tangible demonstration that I’m making it a high priority to support, protect, serve, and honor her (I fully recognize how obsolete this sort of notion sounds, but it’s also something I feel strongly about). So while I can absolutely see how you’d interpret chivalry as a sort of disingenuous game (and maybe it was, I don’t know the guy), I wouldn’t instantly label it as such. That sort of thing is important to me and I certainly don’t consider it a game—or rather, it might be a game in a way, but I don’t consider it a temporary game that stops once I’ve managed to capture the heart of a woman I’m pursuing. It’s a lifetime game that demonstrates the mindset and perspective I have toward the relationship (hopefully that makes sense even if it sounds extremely old-fashioned).

The distance. Yep, this is a huge problem for me in terms of connecting with other introverts on a deeper level. I’m slow to trust and communicate too (probably even slower). That’s really one of my biggest weaknesses and one of the reasons I’m attracted to ExFxs. I find that they bring me out of my shell a little bit more than other IxTxs. I’m a big fan of relationships where both sides have something to contribute to the mutual benefit. To my knowledge, I’ve never met an INTJ girl, so I’m not certain, but part of me thinks we’d be too similar to make a really great team. I find that expressing my feelings, making people feel valued, and getting past the impersonal stage of a relationship are some of my greatest weaknesses. Because I recognize those weaknesses of my own, those are some of the qualities I’m looking for in a partner (besides corresponding values), because I’m looking for a balanced relationship. I’m less concerned about finding a girl who’s a capable, objective rationalist because that’s who I am. I guess I tend to think that the strongest relationships are often found when both sides are able to contribute and receive something to each other. That’s not to say this can’t happen in a same-type or similar-type relationship of course, I just tend to think that it’s more likely in a relationship between two fairly different types.

I also think it’s a lot harder to get past communication problems when they’re an issue for both sides. That’s not to say it can’t be done, or that things won’t work out great if both sides can get past their own barriers, but just to recognize that it’s easier to break through one wall than it is to break through two. But if both sides are committed and patient in regards to breaking through those walls, ISTJ-INTJ can work out great. My dad (INTJ) and my mom (ISTJ) have been happily married for 40+ years, so I’m not one to doubt if there are common values and priorities. They’ve had a remarkable stable and happy relationship, that’s for certain.

And they sure ran a tight ship. :laughing:

Ballast · Nov 26, 2013

See, this is the first time I've really gotten to sit down and actually talk about values. Usually, what ends up happening is that both parties have their own values but can't articulate, even to themselves, what those values are. And so there ends up being a lot of cross talk when someone challenges or questions our values because we are not even able to explain those values to ourselves, let alone another. For us tertiary-Fi folk, it can be a struggle to get to the bottom of why both of us see things in a different way.

So thank you for your elaboration about your values regarding romance and chivalry. I see where you're coming from and I also see where I'm coming from better.

joe_the_buckeye said:
I’m not sure if this helps, but I think I’d agree with you that courtship routines and actions are a sort of game or middleman as you call it. Here’s what I’d say though—for me, those sorts of actions are important for three reasons:

1. They send the message that I feel differently about this girl than I do about other girls. It’s hard for me to put that sort of thing into words sometimes and I generally prefer tangible displays of affection because they feel more substantive to me. Also, I feel that all men should behave chivalrously to women (remember, I’m a hardcore traditionalist), so in order to make the differentiation between an ordinary woman whom I have no feelings for and the one that I am pursuing, I will generally do even more for the one I’m in a relationship with (which could come lead to things coming across as excessive or over-the-top). Yes, these sorts of things can come off awkwardly, but if that happens, I generally turn it into a sort of running joke to avoid making things uncomfortable. But while I might turn it into a joke in order to make things less awkward, it’s still very important to me.

2. I feel like the direct approach, while logical in that it does get right to the point, just doesn’t feel right. I guess this falls back on how much I value tradition and past observation. Something about a direct approach that cuts out this sort of thing just seems incredibly unromantic. Even ISTJs like me value romance, and for me, chivalrous behavior is a type of romance. In fact, I might say it’s the only type of romance that comes naturally to me. So, it may have been a little bit unnerving (and uncomfortable, for him and you both, since it doesn’t seem like it worked especially well for either of you), I’d probably give him the benefit of the doubt here and call it his way of romancing you. Awkward, yes (sometimes incredibly so), but that’s how I am sometimes. The good thing is that while I’m often awkward, I’m generally equally authentic. Outward displays of affection don’t come easily, but when they do come, you can count on the fact that I mean exactly what I’m doing. Good with the bad, I guess.

3. In my own life, I’ve witnessed many healthy relationships where the man acts chivalrously towards the woman, not in order to manipulate the woman into thinking he’s something he’s not, but as fundamental part of the relationship that continues long past marriage. The point isn’t to play the game until I catch the woman; it’s to set a standard early on in the relationship that this is how much the woman means to me and to offer visible and tangible demonstration that I’m making it a high priority to support, protect, serve, and honor her (I fully recognize how obsolete this sort of notion sounds, but it’s also something I feel strongly about). So while I can absolutely see how you’d interpret chivalry as a sort of disingenuous game (and maybe it was, I don’t know the guy), I wouldn’t instantly label it as such. That sort of thing is important to me and I certainly don’t consider it a game—or rather, it might be a game in a way, but I don’t consider it a temporary game that stops once I’ve managed to capture the heart of a woman I’m pursuing. It’s a lifetime game that demonstrates the mindset and perspective I have toward the relationship (hopefully that makes sense even if it sounds extremely old-fashioned).

It's silly, but I think I might have something of an antagonistic view towards love, romance, and relationships and see displays of romantic affection as being disingenuous because I see love as disingenuous. I see love as a game everyone plays to get what they want. Usually it's a whole long list of things the person wants his/her partner to do for them, not the other way around. "Romance" is simply a way to get what you want, and then once you have it you can drop the act and go back to resenting each other. Geeze, I wonder where I picked that idea up from?

So I appreciate your earnestness. I'm earnest too regarding relationships and I think it was one of the things my ISTJ cited as a general reason to be attracted to me. I don't do romance very well at all, and I definitely don't do tradition (I don't identify as either gender so that makes having to fit into the traditional "woman" role uncomfortable). I have no idea how I'm "supposed" to act around other people. As in Keirsey's view, I'm utilitarian to the core. But I'm serious and committed and dedicated and dependable; I don't turn my back on a commitment I've made and I take my values on relationships seriously. In fact, I guess I'd say my cynicism exists because I don't trust others to do the same.

The distance. Yep, this is a huge problem for me in terms of connecting with other introverts on a deeper level. I’m slow to trust and communicate too (probably even slower). That’s really one of my biggest weaknesses and one of the reasons I’m attracted to ExFxs. I find that they bring me out of my shell a little bit more than other IxTxs. I’m a big fan of relationships where both sides have something to contribute to the mutual benefit. To my knowledge, I’ve never met an INTJ girl, so I’m not certain, but part of me thinks we’d be too similar to make a really great team. I find that expressing my feelings, making people feel valued, and getting past the impersonal stage of a relationship are some of my greatest weaknesses. Because I recognize those weaknesses of my own, those are some of the qualities I’m looking for in a partner (besides corresponding values), because I’m looking for a balanced relationship. I’m less concerned about finding a girl who’s a capable, objective rationalist because that’s who I am. I guess I tend to think that the strongest relationships are often found when both sides are able to contribute and receive something to each other. That’s not to say this can’t happen in a same-type or similar-type relationship of course, I just tend to think that it’s more likely in a relationship between two fairly different types.

I also think it’s a lot harder to get past communication problems when they’re an issue for both sides. That’s not to say it can’t be done, or that things won’t work out great if both sides can get past their own barriers, but just to recognize that it’s easier to break through one wall than it is to break through two. But if both sides are committed and patient in regards to breaking through those walls, ISTJ-INTJ can work out great. My dad (INTJ) and my mom (ISTJ) have been happily married for 40+ years, so I’m not one to doubt if there are common values and priorities. They’ve had a remarkable stable and happy relationship, that’s for certain.

And they sure ran a tight ship. :laughing:

Yeah, I see what you mean about the pitfalls ITs are bound to run into with each other. It does help to have someone who is geared towards seeing the inner self of another to work through those blockages. The best thing I can do is try to work through my own issues, because last time they came out in force I had no idea how to deal with them. And neither did he, because neither of us had a language to describe it.

Damn it if IxTJs weren't the most attractive to me. I really don't do well with the energetic bubbliness of EFs, though I love my EF friends (in small doses

).

But ISTJs and INTJs, in my experience, have a kind of sensitive core that is difficult to navigate. Call it that tertiary Fi, or, if you're not a cognitive functions fan, perhaps it's the seriousness of being an ITJ. In any case, I notice it with us but not so much with ISTPs or other NTs. It's true that we look for external, objective fact (whether fact includes sensory data and detail or intuitive analysis and theoretical leaps) to anchor us into reality and that this tends to make us a little more steady, a little more objective, a little more consistent and stable. But then you get into that inner center, the values and things we have, and it is easy to step on without even knowing it. My ISTJ and I both hurt each other without realizing and I'm not sure we were ever really able to talk through it or even understand why, but years later I'm starting to get a sense of the problem. I have a really hard time predicting or understanding others' behavior, despite being an intuitive and despite having profound psychological insights into what might be motivating someone in a situation I'm aware of. So he would act in certain ways (like shutting down, withdrawing) and I would take that behavior at face value: he's not interested, he has a lack of emotion. I can see now, both knowing more about MBTI and myself, how wrong I was but I was so bad at predicting people's unspoken feelings and values when they weren't being communicated directly to me. I can tell when someone is sulking or miffed or short, of course, but we're talking on a deeper level. And for my part, was I ever able to directly tell someone how I was feeling, or even what I was feeling? Nope. It's taken a lot of self-analysis to break this apart and realize where I was coming up short in my understanding.

So, know thyself. That's rule number one in a successful relationship.

joe_the_buckeye · Nov 27, 2013

See, this is the first time I've really gotten to sit down and actually talk about values. Usually, what ends up happening is that both parties have their own values but can't articulate, even to themselves, what those values are. And so there ends up being a lot of cross talk when someone challenges or questions our values because we are not even able to explain those values to ourselves, let alone another. For us tertiary-Fi folk, it can be a struggle to get to the bottom of why both of us see things in a different way.

I actually think I might be a little bit different here. I generally have a pretty good idea regarding my values and reasons that support my holding those values. And really, I generally can effectively explain my rationale to others in a logical, impersonal way. I'm not sure if these are ISTJ traits, but when it comes to issues I'm knowledgeable about, I'm generally comparatively well-informed and possess an opinion and a rationale for it that I'm very capable of expressing to others. My problem is when the issue becomes personal (actually, for either side) because that's when I generally feel most passionate about my values and uncomfortable with violating the other person's standards. I know ISTJs are known for being absolutely blunt and willing to state the painful truth regardless of circumstances, but I'm not really at all like that. If someone asks me for my opinion and I deduce based on my past observation of that person that my opinion is likely to be offensive, I generally throw a few weak (but honest) compliments in as well and soften my perspective as much as possible. So I can't say I generally experience much cross talk, but I'm a 3w2 ISTJ (Yes, we exist), so I'm guessing much of that is attributable to my people pleasing tendencies.

I see love as a game everyone plays to get what they want. Usually it's a whole long list of things the person wants his/her partner to do for them, not the other way around. "Romance" is simply a way to get what you want, and then once you have it you can drop the act and go back to resenting each other. Geeze, I wonder where I picked that idea up from?

As in Keirsey's view, I'm utilitarian to the core.

Well, it can be. You're right, countless people use romance as a means of manipulating the other person to satisfy his/her emotional needs. But that's just the result of unhealthy people using relationships as a means to an end--not at all representative of what romance should be. Romance should be the natural desire to please the other that comes with being in love...but it should also be an active commitment that I hold the other person in the relationship to be my highest priority even when I don't feel particularly affectionate towards him/her. I think sometimes the modern perspective is to look at romance as a game, but it's not--it's physical evidence of a deeper commitment to love and serve the other. I get extremely frustrated when I hear about married couples who've chosen to separate due to "falling out of love." Most of the time that happens, it's because one (or both) confused love with infatuation and once that first honeymoon phase wore off, quit romancing the other because it didn't come naturally anymore. But that's the inevitable ebb and flow of human relationships--we're not robots who have a set emotional level. That's why I say romance is a commitment, and I'd probably argue a necessary (but not onerous) one for a long-lasting healthy relationship. People fall in and out of love all the time, romance is what keeps bringing them back. My priority in my own marriage then (if that is something I'm privileged to one day experience) is to keep pursuing my wife long past the wedding day--even when I don't feel like she's worth the effort to catch. And I think that's what committed, active romance is all about. I guess the reason I wanted to explain all that was to point out that even from a utilitarian perspective, romance is not only important, but useful. If love's an epoxy that holds two people together, romance is the activator...and one that needs to be repetitively applied.

I don't turn my back on a commitment I've made and I take my values on relationships seriously. In fact, I guess I'd say my cynicism exists because I don't trust others to do the same.

Same. Commitment is probably my greatest strength, and my greatest vulnerability. If I commit to someone/something, I'm extremely dependable in regards to coming through. And perhaps largely because I commit so wholeheartedly, nothing hurts more than to know that I've committed to someone who isn't willing to reciprocate. So, I don't generally trust others to do the same either unless they've demonstrated their dependability. I think this is probably an area both of us could grow in. It's not bad that we're dependable and responsible, but I know my lack of trust for other people often keeps me from developing effective and healthy friendships. I'm kind of an all or nothing type of guy in that regard--you're my close friend, or you're never getting past my social facade. I think this sort of black and white perspective often costs me a lot of positive experiences, and it's something I'm trying to work on. The reality is however, that commitment means everything to me. In a way, I think I'm somewhat like a the Black Gate from Lord of the Rings--you're not getting into Mordor unless I choose to allow you. Furthermore, letting anyone inside is a long and difficult task (it takes like five friggin cave trolls :laughing

. But once that gate's opened, I don't have much left in the way of defenses. So, I'm generally very careful who I let inside. Then again, we're talking about Mordor here, so I'm not really sure why I need the gate. I mean, who the heck wants to get into Mordor? :tongue:

But ISTJs and INTJs, in my experience, have a kind of sensitive core that is difficult to navigate

You're not kidding. I think it's because we both tend to be fairly calm and put-together (at least externally), which many people interpret as unfeeling, when in reality, we have as soft of a center as anyone. I can be hurt just as badly as anyone, I just hide it extremely well and not too many people can read me when I bury those sorts of things. It's hard to navigate when you can't see where you're going. And although I think generally I do a fairly good job of dealing with my feelings, it helps that I have some very close relationships with people who know me well enough to know when I'm looking for emotional support and when I'm perfectly fine without it. It seems like a lot of people think I get affected by the most minor issues on one side, and think that I'm unaffected by the major ones. It doesn't bother me that my professor called me out and criticized the perspective I presented in my paper in front of the class (actually, I engaged him and felt like things went fairly well considering)--it did bother me when my ex-girlfriend whom I was very much in love with decided she only wanted to be friends. But I'm not showing anyone beyond a few close relationships, anything. And to be perfectly honest, I won't take the initiative and ask for help even if I need it, so generally it involves someone taking the time to ask if I'm okay. It's really difficult though, because even if I'm not, I'll say that I am, and because I tell people to take me at face value, they often do and leave me alone, even when I really could use the emotional support. On the opposite side, I get annoyed when people keep asking me if I'm okay, when absolutely nothing is wrong.

It's terrible, I know, but I tend to expect people to just know, (which is beyond hypocritical--if anyone has a right to complain, it's not me). So, that's something I'm working on. Sometimes I just have to open up more.

So, know thyself. That's rule number one in a successful relationship.

Absolutely agreed. And the second is like it: know thy partner as thyself. Upon these two rules lie much of relationship success. :happy:

Ballast · Nov 27, 2013

joe_the_buckeye said:
I'm kind of an all or nothing type of guy in that regard--you're my close friend, or you're never getting past my social facade. I think this sort of black and white perspective often costs me a lot of positive experiences, and it's something I'm trying to work on.

I say that all the time--that is exactly like me! And I do recognize it as something of a flaw, even though the connections I've made have been great ones. But sometimes I get nervous about my all-or-nothing attitude and hang back out of fear it'll be thrown back into my face or something.

The reality is however, that commitment means everything to me. In a way, I think I'm somewhat like a the Black Gate from Lord of the Rings--you're not getting into Mordor unless I choose to allow you. Furthermore, letting anyone inside is a long and difficult task (it takes like five friggin cave trolls :laughing. But once that gate's opened, I don't have much left in the way of defenses. So, I'm generally very careful who I let inside. Then again, we're talking about Mordor here, so I'm not really sure why I need the gate. I mean, who the heck wants to get into Mordor? :tongue:

Hahaha!

My ISTJ said to me one day, early in our relationship, your heart is like a fortress. I had no idea what he meant or why he brought it up, but years later...yeah, I finally see what he meant.

I don't like being in love and I don't like being vulnerable. But...I suppose not liking something doesn't make it go away. I've had to work really hard to stop repressing my emotions on the basis that I don't think I should feel them for one reason or another.

It's really difficult though, because even if I'm not, I'll say that I am, and because I tell people to take me at face value, they often do and leave me alone, even when I really could use the emotional support. On the opposite side, I get annoyed when people keep asking me if I'm okay, when absolutely nothing is wrong.

It's terrible, I know, but I tend to expect people to just know, (which is beyond hypocritical--if anyone has a right to complain, it's not me). So, that's something I'm working on. Sometimes I just have to open up more.

I will say that this is something I've gotten to be pretty consistent at. Usually I'll talk if I want to talk and won't if I don't want to, and almost always I will want to process my raw emotions alone and then come to others to work through the resulting thoughts if I feel like I need to. I do hate being pestered during this process.

lollicat · Dec 2, 2013

This may be one of my favorite threads on PerC yet

I'm biased and love you ISTJs, though. @joe_the_buckeye you really encapsulated the core of an ISTJ in a relationship here, and it makes me feel that much more certain of my love for mine. INFJs are also wholeheartedly committed once we arduously get ourselves to that point, and I see a trustworthy match in your type. Thanks for so clearly explaining how you love, and how to love you. ISTJ/ISFJs = hidden gems

joe_the_buckeye · Dec 4, 2013

Hidden gems, huh? The irony hearing that from an INFJ... :tongue:

I'm glad you've enjoyed the thread--even if it stems from some personal bias... :wink:

I actually have an INFJ older brother and we get on very well. I've never really gotten to know any INFJ girls (seems like the only girls I ever talk to are ExFxs), but I like my brother's authenticity, responsibility, intellect, and especially his tact and emotional intelligence. He's got a natural ability to attract people even when he doesn't talk much and certainly doesn't feel the need to change who he is in public. I like that about him. I could definitely see myself with a girl with those sorts of traits.

Oh, and if we ISTJs are hidden gems--you INFJs are buried treasures...

lollicat · Dec 5, 2013

It's true - i do have a personal bias

but the thread itself was a very well-written, enjoyable read - contains a lot of invaluable information. Your wisdom and maturity shine through in your posts - and I don't doubt that you will find a worthy mate soon

Yes, we INFJ gals may be a little slow to open up in comparison to our ExFx counterparts, which is why it may be harder for ISTJ men to get to know us. BUT you'll probably also find that we may also be slower to "lose interest" as well...i don't find anything "boring" in the ISTJ man...those trademark traits of trustworthiness, dependability and responsibility (with the random bouts of quirkiness) are HOT.

roud:

joe_the_buckeye · Dec 11, 2013

An addendum to the thread that deals with some of the more problematic aspects of my personality—again with the disclaimer that this is meant from a personal, rather than type perspective.

Dear non-ISTJ,

I know it’s been pretty rough recently. I can see it. I’m not good with expressing my feelings, but I can tell you’re not acting the same way. I haven’t gotten to asking you yet, but my guess is you’re in a spot kind of like, “things were fantastic for a while; I loved his competence, demeanor, and strong character---he seemed like pretty much an all-around amazing guy.” But reality has started to set in…and with reality always comes disillusionment. You’re starting to see my less likeable aspects—I’m being critical, judgmental, rigid, unexpressive, unappreciative, and boring. I know. I have some good traits, but I have some bad ones too. But, I think it might help if I explain why I have problems with these certain traits and maybe it will help you understand.

I know I’m pretty critical, judgmental, and rigid sometimes. Yeah, I hear you…maybe all the time. And I know it’s frustrating to you that every time you suggest some creative idea, I instantly point out all of its flaws. I’m a little bit like the wet blanket of guys. There’s no one more capable of keeping you warm, but sometimes I screw up and end up putting out the fire instead. But if you want to know why I’m so critical and rigid—here’s why. I generally know how things should be done—and I want people to do things the right way—the efficient way. And I get really frustrated listening to people talk—when all I want is for them to do. I know I should be more open, but I guess I’m a little bit reactionary in my distaste for idle talk. I’m so eager to avoid pointless conversation that if at all possible, I try to skip it altogether. If I know a way to do something—I do it that way—I don’t really bother to look for other ways unless I see something particularly problematic or inefficient about my method. And I tend to expect others to do the same. I know it’s frustrating getting shot down all the time. But I really don’t mean anything personal by it—I’m just in a hurry to get things done and I see constant theorizing and little action as laziness. And I really can’t stand that.

I know I’m not a very expressive person. I know I’m not a very spontaneous person. And if there’s one thing I hate above all else—it’s being put on the spot. I also don’t tend to get excited very easily. I was the kid who slept like a rock on Christmas Eve (well, when the sugar high from all the cookies wore off). I know it gets frustrating when you tell me about something you find to be really exciting and I don’t really respond with much enthusiasm. But this really isn’t because I hate your idea—it’s because I’m busy planning it out. I’m kind of like the UPS of guys—I’m all about logistics. So when you tell me about something exciting, I don’t respond with excitement—I start planning and thinking about all the things that this future event will impact. And I do this calmly, strategically, thoughtfully. This doesn’t mean that I don’t get excited about things (I do)—it just takes me a while to get there. Some people have emotions that are akin to a lightning-fast elevator—I’m more like an old-fashioned set of stairs. Have you ever tried taking the stairs up the Empire State Building? I bet not. You seriously have no idea how much work is involved. But the thing to remember is even if it takes me a while to get there, I still do…eventually. I can still get emotionally involved—I just don’t throw myself into something instantly, completely. I wish I could. But please don’t let get discouraged because I’m not instantly exuberant about something—just give me some time to process it. I’ll get there for you eventually—and once I do, I’ll be the best partner-in-crime you could wish for. Plus, I’ll have a very detailed action plan… :wink:

You think I’m unappreciative, I know. I probably am. It seems like some people have a knack for making others feel valued—I don’t. I think you’d be surprised about why this is. I tend to think of duty-fulfilling as something that should be assumed—not something I should be thanked for. If I do something I committed to doing, I don’t really expect to be thanked or appreciated. I just did my job. Actually, I find it annoying when people do thank me for these kinds of things. I pride myself in my dependability, and when people thank me for doing exactly what I said I would do, I sometimes get the feeling that they’re surprised that I came through for them. I guess I feel like at first, they doubted me. I know this makes no sense at all to you, but I often feel most appreciated when people presume upon me. I like the sound of “Joe’s got that” an awful lot more than “Thanks for getting that done in time, Joe.” When you say “Joe’s got that,” I hear “Joe is someone I can count on to get the job done well.” When you say “Thanks for getting that done in time, Joe,” I hear something more like “Thanks for coming through for me, I wasn’t sure I could count on you.” I can actually enjoy being taken for granted, because it shows implicit confidence in my dependability—something I’m very proud of. Now here’s the thing: sometimes I show my appreciation and respect the same way I receive it. I do it by presuming. And I know how absolutely brutal this sounds to you. It probably doesn’t even make sense. Most everyone considers presumption is the antithesis of appreciation, not a manifestation of gratitude. And since I know that you value affirmation, I’m working on verbalizing my appreciation—it just doesn’t come particularly naturally to me—especially when it’s about something that I consider a responsibility. Actually, the people I tend to thank explicitly are the people I trusted less to come through for me. As rough as this sounds, if I’m taking you for granted, you’re probably one of the people I appreciate most in the world. :happy:

I know how stubborn I can be sometimes. But as much as it doesn’t seem like I’m willing to change—I actually am. You’re my girl—and once I pick a girl—I’m all in. And since I truly care about you, I’ll do virtually anything for you if you ask me. But, if you do want me to change, you’re going to need to be very direct and logical about why it’s important. Explain the problem explicitly, calmly, and gently. Then tell me exactly what I can do better, and the rationale for why it’s important to you. You’ll want to keep in mind that I’ll probably be very upset when I find out I’ve failed you, so it’s going to be very difficult for me to hear about it. So pair the explanation of the problem-desired solution-rationale for change (in that order) procedure with some nice, sincere compliments about how solid of a man I am or how much you can trust me (those are the types of compliments that I appreciate most). Start off the issue with something you appreciate about me, list your issue, and then finish the discussion with something that reaffirms me.

For example, if you’re disappointed that I don’t seem to appreciate you, tell me. But don’t just tell me that you feel unappreciated—tell me how I can help make you feel more appreciated and why it’s important to you. If the latter and former seem obvious to you, don’t assume that they are to me. Something like this would probably be very effective: “Dear, I know you love me, but sometimes I’d like for you to [whatever you’d like me to do differently]. Sometimes in [this specific situation], I would really love if you could [desired response], because [why it’s important to you].” Then let me respond (and try not to be offended that I’m probably going to ask questions, not offer immediate sympathy). Most likely I’ll say something like “I had no idea that [what I was doing] was making you feel [however you tell me you’re feeling]. I’m so sorry, dear, I will do my best to make sure that I do [whatever you told me you’d like me to do] better in the future.” Then, one of the best things you can say to end the conversation (and coincidentally, also will help you out in terms of me actually changing) would be to say something like, “I’m so glad we had this discussion. I love how well you listen to me and that I can trust you to come through for me.” I’ll probably think about those sorts of compliments for days and spend hours thinking about how I can ‘come through’ for you. That’s who I am in a nutshell—I come through for people. And to hear a girl/woman tell me how much she trusts me to do something for her…well…let’s just say this, I do have a heart, and even if it seems frozen solid—even solid ice melts sometimes. :wink:

And I know it’s frustrating having to explain everything to me. I wish I could understand everything instantly. I know how much easier that’d be. But although I can’t promise you the ability to understand your every need—I can promise you that I’ll move heaven and earth to come through for you. You can’t count on me to understand…but you can count on me to be there.

Yep, I’m booooooring. I’m really sorry. On second thought, give me a break. Seems like women these days want everything—exciting, handsome, emotionally-connected, sensitive, masculine, funny, loving, dependable, intelligent, athletic, etc. But if that’s what you’re looking for, best of luck to you (you’re going to need it) in your search. And keep looking. If you’re okay with me being boring and a bit of a homebody, then great. It shouldn’t really be that big of an issue. Just go find some female friends to give your life a little bit of fun and excitement.

And do it on a weekend afternoon, I’d rather watch football anyway.

Sincerely,

--An ISTJ Guy

nuue · Dec 12, 2013

This thread has a lot of points that sound like my istj boyfriend.. which is nice... because i adore him.

roud:
(i ventured into istj territory to better understand him anyway to better make him happy.)

His "boringness" and patience is so endearing.
It makes me comfortable.

He's not boring at all really (hence the quotations)... excitement is like wandering around the bookstore (he's like a little kid in a candy shop (or Disneyland) in bookstores!) and I get to observe him, and follow him around. I find it exciting... maybe I'm weird... maybe it's an infj thing. Or like he'll drag me with him to go watch an antique firetruck parade (cause that's his quirky interest (I have my own fair share of quirky interests myself)) or visit a car museum... random little 'hermit' places too with very little people around. He hates parties (even if i tell him i'll share the corner space and the cheese & cracker tray with him). We walk around the park sometimes (lately because it's been cold we wander around Target... his shopping list is always interesting). His excitements are little things in life he finds fascinating and interesting. I also quite appreciate his ability to "stop and smell the roses" and I don't mind that he'll sit next to the rose bushes for a few hours to ponder stuff or do his own things. It just means I'll know where to find him.

My istj, despite being slower than a dead snail, wants nothing more than to go at his comfortable thought-out pace with our relationship. Which is absolutely fine (considering he's my first boyfriend (and hopefully if everything turns out dandy in a couple years time... my only)). He's not pressuring me, I'm not pressuring him. I'd rather go his pace than anything. Less anxiety on my part, less anxiety for him. He's quite traditional and old fashioned, a sweetheart and a gentleman. He bluntly told me in text he's asking me to be his girlfriend the next time I saw him (that was.... in July... after dating him since January) and a week later he did. He communicates quite well in written word but is quite reserved with words in person. He's more touchy than wordy. He gives the greatest hugs though. I'm more outwardly cold than him really... side-by-side comparison, he's more of the teddybear.

He can be a real goofball in many ways, but that's why I love him.

So um.. that was my little rant / swooning / whatever it's called. Yeah.
... this thread was nice to stumble upon.

ISTJ's are wonderful individuals.

lollicat · Dec 13, 2013

@joe_the_buckeye and @nuue, love the posts! They really encapsulate little nuances that make ISTJs so special. Especially the part about the awesome hugs! hehe

On a semi-related note, do you ISTJs feel that you get misunderstood by other types sometimes ?
I have to be honest - when I first met my boyfriend, I didn't really "get" him in the sense that I couldn't get a handle on his intentions at first. He was so literal and took things at face value and I'm not used to that. I am guilty of trying to read more into what he was saying at first..although now I know better, and I love that he means what he says. Also, sometimes I'm afraid he can come across as almost rude or inconsiderate at times, when in reality he is just oblivious. I've found that a lot of people when first meeting my boyfriend get a less than favorable impression because he's not completely outgoing or friendly- more reserved at first and slow to open up. As a result, people tend to place judgments on him that IMO are unfair.

For example, after my best friend met him for the first time, she said he seemed "disinterested" or "distracted" when in reality he's just quiet but still engaged, in his own way. It probably has something to do with the lack of eye contact thing when he's not quite comfortable. She's an ESTP who appreciates directness and likes outgoing people. She said herself she finds it difficult to relate to certain introverts. My ISTJ, OTOH, had nothing but great things to say to me about my friend and her hubby and had no idea she was less than impressed with him.

It makes me sad for him sometimes - that he's so misunderstood (especially by more extroverted/aggressive people, it seems)- but at the end of the day I know what a sincere and goodhearted individual he is, so that's all that really matters to me. Just wondering if that's related to type or if it's just him. Either way, I consider myself lucky to have found such a lovely, genuine guy who has all these endearingly adorable quirks and who loves me so purely ...*sigh*

- another swooning NF

joe_the_buckeye · Dec 14, 2013

Do I feel misunderstood? It really depends. I think most people I'm close to understand me pretty well, and that's really what I care about. I know that was actually one of the things my first girlfriend liked most--she liked that it made her feel special to know that she "got" me in a way that very few people did. To be perfectly honest, I don't need everyone to understand me, nor do I really want everyone to understand me. Sometimes I think my obliviousness makes me a little bit underarmed in social situations, so maybe my way of compensating for that is being hard to read, I don't really know. I do know that once I open up enough to people for them to truly understand the whole/real me, that's when they've become important to me and can hurt me. I think that's the root of why I don't tend to open up all the way to people. And if you don't open up all the way, it's hard to expect people to understand you.

Besides, if everyone could read me like a book the first time they met me they'd get bored, let's face it. And if everyone gets bored with me right away, how am I supposed to find my swooning NF? :wink:

Hyuna · Apr 6, 2014

Thank you so much for all this useful information!
Much appreciated

I have some questions regarding romantic relationships with ISTJs.
Would you be so nice to enlighten me a little with your knowledge/experience as an ISTJ?
I look forward to hearing from you!
Best,

joe_the_buckeye · Apr 7, 2014

@Hyuna You're very welcome. Glad it was helpful.

Sure. I'm always willing to fight the good fight in defense of us single ISTJ guys. :laughing:

Might be a few days before I get back to you with answers, but fire at will!

Hyuna · Apr 7, 2014

I met this ISTJ guy around 2 months ago during a figure skating event.
We were both volunteering for that event for a good 8 hours or so.
At first we just sat there without exchanging a word because both of us are pretty shy. However, the silence started to bother me--not to mention that I also found him really cute, and I decided to talk to him.
By the end of that event, we got to know each other decently well, and he added me on facebook to keep in touch.

Since we live in two different cities and have relatively different lifestyles, we did not meet each other for a couple of months. However, we did message each other a lot through fb and, as you mentioned in your original post, he seemed much more comfortable in communicating with me via text.
Through these online conversations, I got to know that he really admired my honesty and liked my way of thinking. However, I felt a little unsure of the sincerity of his compliments because he always took several days and even a week to reply to my messages. He would usually message me back at least 2 days after I messaged him, apologizing for not replying in a timely manner while telling how forgetful and busy he is.
Since he is a professional figure skater, he has to travel frequently for competitions while balancing his schoolwork and training. Hence, I think I can believe that he was telling the truth when he attributed the late responses as a consequence of his busy schedule.
About a month ago, I got to know that he was going to make his first international debut in Eurioe. I decided to use this opportunity to prepare him a gift before he traveled abroad for his competition. I prepared a box of chocolates, a stuffed animal (that's what you give to figure skaters to show your appreciation), a box with panoramic photographs that I took with various inspirational quotes behind them, a playlist with music that were meaningful to me, and a letter.

In the letter, I told him how much I appreciated the fact that I met him. I told him that as a student following a pre-med track in a highly competitive college, I got too focused on my own personal needs and ambitions. I said that meeting someone as selfless as him (because he truly is a very caring and selfless individual) has opened my eyes and has inspired me to help those in need. I also included a paragraph stating the reason why I included each of the aforementioned items in the gift bag: I said that the chocolates were from my favorite bakery store and that I hoped they would keep him energized before and during the competition, that I picked the specific stuffed animal because its smile reminded me of his radiating smile, and that the music in the playlist was to help alleviate his pre-competition nerves, as I found comfort in them even during the toughest moments of my life.

I did not get to give him this gift personally (I asked a friend to drop it off), but he did tell me that he received it before he traveled abroad for his competition. I waited for around 1 week for him to say something in regards to the gift that I gave him, but I received no "thank yous" whatsoever. This is when I got very worried, thinking that he might have taken the gifts in a wrong way and decided to write him. Basically, I just told him that I knew that it was odd for me to give so much since we were not the closest of friends. But that after one close friend passed away, I began to feel that life is really too short to not actively appreciate the people around you. I also mentioned that I personally did not think that we as humans need a reason to be nice to each other.
Yes, I liked him already, and I think that my gift was probably an obvious sign for him too. But the death of my friend was also a main factor that pushed me forward to be courageous, and actively show my appreciation to him.
I am not sure what was going on in his mind during that week of silence. Maybe he felt that I liked him and since the feeling was not mutual, he did not know how to respond back. Maybe the feeling was mutual and he just didn't know how to translate his feelings into words. But I think that my message definitely relieved some of the tensions, as I did get a response from him soon.
In his response, he basically stated how amazing he thought I was. He told me that I am one of the very few honest, open, and helpful person he has ever met, and he thanked me for the fact that I was alive. He said that he thought that my gifts were very nicely put together and that they were truly special.

A week after that, I told him that i made a poster for him and asked if we could meet in the rink that we both train so that I could give it to him. He set a time, and both of us agreed that we would both be free at that time. However, the day before the set date, he messaged me telling me that something came up and that he may or may not be able to make it. I went to the rink the following day anyway and texted him asking if he was there. Surprisingly, I got a response from him immediately. He said that he was there for his own skating practice, but that he had already left. However, he offered to come back and meet up with me, although he could only stay for 5 min.
We did meet, and for those 5 min, we were both pretty awkward and avoided eye contact.

I really don't know what is going on in his mind. Does he like me or not? Why does he send mixed signals? (such as saying really nice things and then proceed to ignore my messages for days and even a week, or offering to come back but staying for only 5 min)?

Sorry for such a long and disorganized post, and thanks ahead for your willingness to help out!
Best,

joe_the_buckeye · Apr 8, 2014

Well, turned out I had a chance to read your post tonight. Hope my responses below are helpful. :happy:

Hyuna said:
we did message each other a lot through fb and, as you mentioned in your original post, he seemed much more comfortable in communicating with me via text. Through these online conversations, I got to know that he really admired my honesty and liked my way of thinking. However, I felt a little unsure of the sincerity of his compliments because he always took several days and even a week to reply to my messages. He would usually message me back at least 2 days after I messaged him, apologizing for not replying in a timely manner while telling how forgetful and busy he is.

Speaking for myself here (I'm obviously not the voice of the ISTJ males lol), I'd absolutely make time to keep in touch with someone I'm romantically interested in. I get the idea he enjoys your company, but at least at this point isn't that interested in you romantically.

Since he is a professional figure skater, he has to travel frequently for competitions while balancing his schoolwork and training. Hence, I think I can believe that he was telling the truth when he attributed the late responses as a consequence of his busy schedule.

Yeah, I can see that. I don't get the idea he was ignoring you. It sounds like he genuinely wants to be your friend, but if he's not going that extra mile to do whatever it takes to interact with you, I doubt he's really invested in the relationship romantically. Again, speaking for myself, if I'm falling for a girl, she becomes my top priority--if I'm too busy, I'll rearrange my schedule or sleep less in order to spend time with her.

About a month ago, I got to know that he was going to make his first international debut in Eurioe. I decided to use this opportunity to prepare him a gift before he traveled abroad for his competition. I prepared a box of chocolates, a stuffed animal (that's what you give to figure skaters to show your appreciation), a box with panoramic photographs that I took with various inspirational quotes behind them, a playlist with music that were meaningful to me, and a letter.

Very sweet and thoughtful. Don't worry too much about what's weird or socially acceptable. If it's heartfelt, that's what counts to me. Authenticity is really all that matters. If I get the sense the gift is some form of emotional manipulation...that's when you've made a critical error.

In the letter, I told him how much I appreciated the fact that I met him. I told him that as a student following a pre-med track in a highly competitive college, I got too focused on my own personal needs and ambitions. I said that meeting someone as selfless as him (because he truly is a very caring and selfless individual) has opened my eyes and has inspired me to help those in need. I also included a paragraph stating the reason why I included each of the aforementioned items in the gift bag: I said that the chocolates were from my favorite bakery store and that I hoped they would keep him energized before and during the competition, that I picked the specific stuffed animal because its smile reminded me of his radiating smile, and that the music in the playlist was to help alleviate his pre-competition nerves, as I found comfort in them even during the toughest moments of my life. I did not get to give him this gift personally (I asked a friend to drop it off), but he did tell me that he received it before he traveled abroad for his competition. I waited for around 1 week for him to say something in regards to the gift that I gave him, but I received no "thank yous" whatsoever. This is when I got very worried, thinking that he might have taken the gifts in a wrong way and decided to write him. Basically, I just told him that I knew that it was odd for me to give so much since we were not the closest of friends. But that after one close friend passed away, I began to feel that life is really too short to not actively appreciate the people around you. I also mentioned that I personally did not think that we as humans need a reason to be nice to each other.
Yes, I liked him already, and I think that my gift was probably an obvious sign for him too. But the death of my friend was also a main factor that pushed me forward to be courageous, and actively show my appreciation to him.

I'd guess he was just confused. It probably felt to him that it was a bit much, given that you two weren't extremely close friends at the time. I tend to have something like 3 levels of relationships--close friends/family--friends--casual acquaintances. Something like what you did would probably be reserved for tier 1 friends, while it sounds like the friendship is more like tier 2. So in short, I would have been flattered, confused, and a bit befuddled as to how to respond to such a gift/letter. I suspect over the week that elapsed, he spend much of it debating how to respond to you, and when you wrote him, he still hadn't decided what would be appropriate.

I am not sure what was going on in his mind during that week of silence. Maybe he felt that I liked him and since the feeling was not mutual, he did not know how to respond back. Maybe the feeling was mutual and he just didn't know how to translate his feelings into words. But I think that my message definitely relieved some of the tensions, as I did get a response from him soon.
In his response, he basically stated how amazing he thought I was. He told me that I am one of the very few honest, open, and helpful person he has ever met, and he thanked me for the fact that I was alive. He said that he thought that my gifts were very nicely put together and that they were truly special.

I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't any of those. My guess would be that he just wasn't sure how to thank you for doing something so nice...but also something that made him a bit uncomfortable due to the casual nature of your relationship. The other possibility I think would be that he wasn't interested in you romantically and wasn't quite sure how to say it without hurting you. If he was interested in you at this point, I don't see any reason why he wouldn't come out and say it--or at least begin to explore the idea.

A week after that, I told him that i made a poster for him and asked if we could meet in the rink that we both train so that I could give it to him. He set a time, and both of us agreed that we would both be free at that time. However, the day before the set date, he messaged me telling me that something came up and that he may or may not be able to make it. I went to the rink the following day anyway and texted him asking if he was there. Surprisingly, I got a response from him immediately. He said that he was there for his own skating practice, but that he had already left. However, he offered to come back and meet up with me, although he could only stay for 5 min. We did meet, and for those 5 min, we were both pretty awkward and avoided eye contact.

I think you two need to have a good, straightforward talk the next time you meet. I think it'd help both of you get this figured out. This strikes me as either extreme shyness or fear of hurting you. Either way, at this point I'd recommend you write a letter detailing how you feel and asking him if he has any similar feelings. Better to get it out there and deal with it directly than have to face constant confusion like this.

I really don't know what is going on in his mind. Does he like me or not? Why does he send mixed signals? (such as saying really nice things and then proceed to ignore my messages for days and even a week, or offering to come back but staying for only 5 min)?

If you want to know the answer of this question, you'll have to ask him. Just don't put him under pressure to make an immediate decision, and take whatever answer he gives you at face value. It might end up being an issue of bad timing--he's really consumed by his figure skating and needs to stay focused on that, rather than relationships (and relationships are huge distraction for us, I assure you).

Sorry for such a long and disorganized post, and thanks ahead for your willingness to help out!

Haha, it wasn't disorganized at all...and not sure how helpful I've been, but you're more than welcome. :happy:

A Lengthy and Subjective Guide for Understanding a Relationship with me, an ISTJ Guy

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