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ISFJ's and Christianity

[ISFJ] 
20K views 66 replies 27 participants last post by  Brown93 
#1 ·
I know, I know....religion and type is a topic that has already been done to death and talked about time and time again.


I also know that there's no clear, direct connection between type and religion. Religion is a personal choice, type is inborn. There are Christian NT's and atheist ISFJ's. Anyone of any type can choose any religion, and people even change religions throughout the course of their lives. There are so many other factors that affect someone's religion other than type, and so much depends on culture, environment and background.


All of that being said, however, I disagree with the notion that there is absolutely no correlation between someone's type and what religion they choose. I haven't seen any formal study, but I'm honestly willing to bet that a greater percentage of ISFJ's are Christian than at least some other types, particularly NT's, or even just N's or P's in general (at least in Western cultures). I have noticed a number of the ISFJ's on PerC are Christians, though we often don't bring it up or speak about it much.


And I think that's because a lot of the teachings of Christianity fit in line with the natural preferences of ISFJ's. I'm not saying that ISFJ's aren't any less prone to sin than any other type, or that ISFJ's don't have desires of the flesh, or that ISFJ's are in any way special. But what I am saying is that the idea of Christianity is probably appealing to ISFJ's in a number of ways.


The first is that in general ISFJ's enjoy pleasing others, particularly those in authority. We in general don't like to stray too much from the path. The idea of serving a God, particularly one who loves us and appreciates everything we do, is an idea that is very fulfilling to us.

The second is the idea of service in general. Christianity is a religion that has a large focus on not only serving God, but also serving others. Many teachings of Jesus support this idea, as do many of Paul. Even if this is hard for us to do a lot of times, it's something we honestly feel obligated to do, and we get a natural fulfillment out of it.

Finally, I think the structure of religion in general, particularly Christianity, gives us comfort. It's very nice to be able to go to a book like the Bible and be able to use it for guidance in our lives. It's nice to have one place to look to


I'm not trying to use type as an excuse for any kind of behavior. But I think that many other people, often of other types, detest this kind of behavior in us. They have a problem with us relying on a source other than ourselves. They view it as mindless, sheeplike and weak.

Of course, as ISFJ's (and Christians) need to learn not to care too much about what others think. It's a balance that we have to strive to find...to listen to others to get input from them, but not to let them control our decisions and choices. The other thing that I think is really nice about Christianity is that really, most of the time when people outside of it have a problem with it, they have a problem with God much more than they do us. There are a few Bible verses that point to this but I don't have the time to look them up now. Sometimes I think we take others' criticisms of God personally, and we forget that God has already said that some people will hate Him.

At the same time, I've also felt that it's important for us to be confident in our own abilities and thoughts...I don't think there's anything in Christianity that teaches against that. There is a big difference between pride and confidence. I think one can still be dependent upon God and still use their own mind to think and solve problems.



Anyway....I'm not meaning to say all ISFJ's are the same and I'm not trying to single out any ISFJ's that are not Christians...for all I know, maybe Christian ISFJ's are in the minority of the ISFJ's on PerC. As I've said, type doesn't dictate anything and is no excuse for anyone to be one way or another about anything.

But I honestly don't think it's purely coincidence. So I just felt like getting these thoughts out, particularly because since religion and type has already been done to death, it's almost felt like an "elephant in the room" that no one on our forum has brought up yet.
 
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#36 ·
I was given the opportunity to attend Church and Sunday school from a very early age.My parents were non practising Protestants,but they never denied me my faith.They even presented me with a bible as a Christmas present at the age of nine,which i still have.
I've spent my life searching for and questioning my faith.I've been to many different churches and had life changing experiences.I'm now a member of a Pentecostal church,however haven't attended services for quite a while now,as i am questioning so many areas of my life.I have given my children the opportunity to choose for themselves what they want to believe.My ISTP sons have shied away from Christianity.Only my ISFP daughter has embraced it and has a very strong faith and Christian values.I am not going to tell her how to live her life it is her choice,and i'm very proud of the choices she has made so far in her life according to her beliefs and moral values.
 
#43 ·
I just have a few things I'd like to point out:

1) There is no "Tabula Rasa". People are more or less born a certain way. Enviroment only goes so far.

2) There is a difference between the belief (idea) and religion (the implimentation of the belief). Christianity is the belief; the various denominations (Protestant, Catholic, etc.) could be thought of as different ways of implementing the same belief.

3) A lot of people focus on specific issues before understanding the general idea. I think people need to start with the basic thesis of Christianity: that there is only one God, He loves you despite your status as a sinner, and sent His son to die for you. Simple.

4) I have to wonder what kind of churches everyone's going to that's giving the rest of us Christians such a bad name :sad:. Most Christians I know are decent, humble people, not crazed bigots out to ruin everyone else's fun/lives/whatever.

5) This relates back to point 3: A key aspect of Christianity is that you can't work your way into Heaven. We're all on the same page: mortal sinners. It is solely through the grace of God and your belief in Jesus that gets you in. By all means, try to live a virtuous life, but realize that you can't do enough good acts to simply "buy your way" in. We're all going to make mistakes, and to an extent that's fine. Remember, Jesus was much more critical of the Pharisees (who followed the law to the letter, and were religious leaders) than of the whores, crooked tax collectors, and Roman legionaires that He helped. The difference was that the Pharisees basically thought Jesus was a fraud, or worse, while the others humbled themselves and believed.


Wow, it was a little more involved than I intended, but hopefully you all see the point I'm trying to make: drawing a line between religion and Christianity.
 
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#44 ·
4) I have to wonder what kind of churches everyone's going to that's giving the rest of us Christians such a bad name :sad:. Most Christians I know are decent, humble people, not crazed bigots out to ruin everyone else's fun/lives/whatever.
Most Christians I know are decent people too. They just believe things I can't accept and occasionally they get a bit pushy in their desire to have everyone else accept the things they believe. It's not the individual people that bother me about organised religions, but rather the institutions themselves. Like I said I still haven't found a church that doesn't fundamentally oppose at least one of the things I personally hold as uncontestable beliefs. For the record, the ones I've been to are: Methodist, Baptist, Presbyterian, Anglican, Mormon, Elim, Catholic and others I can't remember right now.
 
#46 ·
I wrote an extensive post about religion yesterday and while you may not like it, you may also find it interesting. So I thought I should repost it here. I also extended my views on Si and religion below. Once again, you may not like neither, but it's not my intention to upset or offend anyone. So - read these at your own 'risk'.
The problem is, to my limited understanding, that people live in their very own Matrix. (In fact, the movie is a big metaphor, especially the 30 first minutes.) It's been called by many different names though, like 'sleep', it's also been called a prison. It's a place where automatism and 'personality ego' rules. It's a place where you can be seemingly happy, yet everywhere you look everything turns into shit and there are only glimpses of real, genuine emotion. One could say that wars and divorces are due to "human nature" but really, it's due to living your personality construct. Growing it is part of human nature, though. Then you 'must' grow out of it.

The goal of religion and all spiritual activity, such as meditation and prayer, living in isolation or monasteries is to free oneself from the crazy automatism that rules your life. This is why millions and millions of people throughout the ages has devoted their lives to such activities. Religion is a tool for people to work with, most people have it wrong - it's not meant to be a "follower-cult". I hope no-one found that offensive, but I believe it's important to question religion and to consider it more like a toolbox filled with wisdom and metaphors that's meant to be used to uncover truth. It's very hard to discover your prison on your own and much harder to escape it. Religion is a toolbox to help people who have discovered their prison, and everyone else to live a more honest life. Many people 'instinctively know' that they can live a more honest life with religion, but very few know why.

As you unveil personality, and learn to decide for yourself - instead of repeating the same patterns without notice - you see something. It's an aspect of "God". I believe people see different aspects of the same thing > multiple religions with different "Gods" - but they are really the same thing, from different perspectives. It's something like what's covered by the enneagram, a 4 would see beauty in everything and that would be one aspect of God. A 2 would see love. That's why one religion focuses on love, and another on something else.

This is, to me, the only logical reason why multiple religions exist. They see different aspects of the same thing. Else, you'd have to come to the conclusion that religion is bogus - which is where I was a few years ago. But now I think differently, as explained above. Also there are some beliefs like Gods in nordic mythology that probably doesn't have any truth to it. It's quite possible that the toolboxes was made into bibels and qurans and such to spread them as far as possible.

There may be crusades and holy wars but that's not due to religion. I believe the positives win over the negatives. It's not religion that causes holy wars, it's people who do not follow their inner qualities and ironically their very own religious teachings. It's because people are automatized and blind followers of their personality. Wars exist anyways, religion is one way to salvation. It's hope to humanity. It's a necessity.

That's the purpose of religion.
http://personalitycafe.com/critical-thinking-philosophy/48958-atheist-gone-wrong-try-convert-me-your-religion.html

I'll also add some things about Si. I've refreshed my knowledge regarding Si lately and I feel like I have a better understanding of how it works now. So now I can explain a little bit better why I think Si is sort of connected to religion.

I see two situations. The first may be connected to Fe, because the things that Si stores away are connected to feelings with me. When I experience what I call good feelings like laughter - the more genuine the better - Si ever so often stores it away. The feeling-sensation and a visual, for example and then I may relive it. This could, with time, accumulate to a "rich inner world" filled with good memories. These good Si memories-feelings-sensations basically convince us of the goodness of the world>sensation of God. We can see that someone who experience much good feelings, especially of existential nature, would be more likely to believe in God-concepts.

Second situation is that we, as an example, read a biblical text and think "this is valuable/this is true" and Si stores it away connecting the feeling of "this is true" with the text we read. Edit: This sounds way too NLP and it needs to be explained better. What happens is that we receive sensory information and then we 'introvert'. This could be Ti, I'm not sure, but we introvert and consider the data and if we think it's important to us it is likely to stick to our Si map. It becomes a part of our map/world/inner guidelines and may be words that we come to live by. Our Si map. > We follow it's wisdom, because we recognize it's value. From here on we could become religious or simple take it's wisdom and leave.

I think that the second situation induces the first. What I mean is that when we follow the words of God we get many happy memories. Which is a loop that reinforces our faith.

This is taking a functions approach to religion(focusing only on Si, a little Fe - because I don't know enough about function theory to explain the relationship between functions). I'm not reducing anyone to a walking introverted sensor. I could see how someone would be upset if they read it as "he says Si is the cause of my faith" but that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying it's a route there that could connect you with God. I've heard ISFJs are spiritual people and I think that's probably true, this is how I try to apply the theory and explain why. I also understand how someone can be ISFJ and not spiritual/religious, because that's where I was, or thought myself to be, when I first got into the MBTI.
 
#48 ·
as an abject slave then I suppose you are, in a way, stricken to look for salvation. - As Hitchens would most likely put it.
Yes, we'd look for a way out of it.

Are we not slaves?

I believe myself to be a slave to my body, mind and heart. It's a matter or perspective, but when I look at myself and humanity I see prisoners. I am trapped in this body, I have very little free will and it's a struggle to stay on the happy side of life.

But I'm not so cynical anymore, I believe it's possible to have much more because I've seen it. Some people are very happy with very little. It's perspective. Religion has the possibility to bring perspective and freedom, it does not enslave. We do that on our own.

On the subject of perspective, I find it to be a weird perspective to say that religion teaches people to be anything. We accepts our truths on our own and can't blame it on the teacher. I strongly believe that it's up to the individual to interpret the message. Whether it's your opinion or Hitchens, you can't blame a messenger for the truth the reciever chooses. It's his responsibility to make good judgement. If you are interested, you find out on your own whether you're in fact a slave, or not.
 
#49 ·
I'm sorry, but this is coming across as more of the 'we're only good because that comes from god' stuff that so annoyed me at the memorial service. I prefer to believe better of my fellow people - that we are basically inherently good. If you need to have a god or religion or whatever to accept that or to show that or to live that then so be it, but don't make the incorrect assumption that people who don't have those things are somehow inherently less in tune with their goodness. It is remarkably condescending to say that it's a necessity to have/find religion to be fully cognizant of all it is to be human. That we must 'grow out' of not being religious is also very smug and self-satisfied. I don't think any one route towards being the best person you can be is superior to any other. I try to live a good life with many of the 'morals' suggested by religion because I think it's the right thing to do (though I have huge issues with some of the morals imposed by religious leaders). Others choose to live such a life because it's part of their religious beliefs and thus they see it as the right thing to do. Neither one of those approaches is superior; neither one is a 'necessity' to being the best you can be.

I don't want to offend you Tucken, (though you were well aware that you were saying something contentious, hence the 'read at own risk' part of your post) but this post does come across as a very smug 'I am older and wiser and have grown on from where you pitiful people are; one day you will be as enlightened as me' attitude. Again, it is attitudes like these that turn me off religion. If to become religious is to imagine that I am better than other people in some way ... well, no thanks. You can keep it.
 
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#50 ·
It seems a strange concept to feel that being better than some people, in some way, or ways, is somehow a bad thing.
Is this the subconscious result of PC conditioning, as in the "we're all equal" stuff?
Just wandering around this forum shows me there are people I am far superior to, in any number of ways.
Age is certainly a factor. Why would one ever imagine it would not be? Experience can count for a great deal.
Anyway; it is not religion, per-se that is bad. It is more the way certain people use it for cover and misrepresent it.
Some of the most hypocritical people I have ever met have been religious.
 
#51 ·
Just because someone has different strengths to someone else that doesn't make them 'better' - it means they have different strengths. It's not being PC to acknowledge that we all bring something different to the table. You may have age and experience but someone else may have youth and new ideas. Your age and experience is not somehow qualitatively better than their fresh ideas. In some situations and circumstances it may even be worse.

Something like believing in religion isn't a good criterion for 'betterness' anyway, even if it was somehow a truism that someone with certain strengths equaled being 'better' than someone having other certain strengths. Religion is a belief like any other belief and people who have it are not inherently better than people who don't. I have a very good education, lots of qualifcations and I have thought long and deeply about a lot of things. That doesn't mean I'm going around saying 'Oh, I am so much more awesome than you pitiful people who have religion' because it's simply not true - not based on those criteria. Besides, you said it yourself Crow - there are some terrible people who are religious (and conversely some wonderful people who aren't) so simply having 'grown up' and found religion doesn't automatically qualify you as better than others. So the smug attitude that someone is lesser somehow because they haven't 'escaped their prison' or whatever is insupportable. I'm not a better person than you or Tucken; neither of you is a better person than me. We all have value and we all have the ability to be the best person we can be whether or not we have the same beliefs. Or is that too PC for you? To me that's not PC, it's simple logic.
 
#52 ·
It's not simple logic to me. It's PC doublethink. Or rather PC doublestink.
Observe how fiercely you defend "your" idea. Which indicates it probably isn't "your" idea at all.
My wife was exactly this way for many years, until she quite suddenly woke up.
It's the fault of no individual that PC has gotten into their minds. It's cultural.
It's also suicidal.
Observe: the purpose of religion is to unite. Without it, what do you get? Exactly what you see.
With no real reason for conflict, it automatically happens, all by itself.
 
#53 ·
I knew there was a reason I didn't like talking to you. I defend my views because I'm a passionate person. Is that somehow wrong? No it isn't. It's merely a different way of approaching the world (I would have thought on a forum dedicated to how people are different, this would be easily understood). You also hold strongly to your views - you may not defend them as passionately as I do but you believe in them just as much. Neither of us is more right than the other. Your views appear very arrogant to me. For example - your wife 'woke up'? You mean she sublimated who she was to who you wanted her to be? Thankfully my husband shares my views and doesn't try to make me into whatever he deems correct, and I don't do the same thing to him.

Your views, in the extreme, would lead to a society where those who deem themselves 'better' than others eventually enslave those who are lesser because you know better what is good for them. Forgive me if I don't like the idea that someone like you could have the ability to impose their idea of truth or goodness onto others just because you believe you are better. Note, I'm saying in the extreme- it is the logical destination of a society where certain people deem themselves better than the rest. In fact, this is a society we have seen before and most rational people currently feel that those societies were backwards and unenlightened.

Forgive me if I don't engage in discussing with you again. You have, as I said once before, very strong views and so do I. They are clearly incompatible. Arguing about it is clearly not going to get either of us anywhere.
 
#54 ·
You don't like talking to me because I don't agree with you. See how "equal" we are?
And for your information: although you prefer to believe I am some dire monster, my wife is ecstatically happy.
As am I, most of the time.
Victimhood does nobody any favors. I comforted you when you needed it. I didn't need you to agree with me when I did that.
Please do feel free not to engage me again. As you have so kindly observed: we don't have much in common.
 
#55 ·
@sts06 It was part of a post, quoted from another thread where I explained my own thoughts, beliefs and experiences regarding religion. What I wrote was quite honest.

I believe you've misinterpreted what I said. I would much rather have people question what I really mean before jumping to conclusions. Now I realize that I should have said that to begin with, but I thought I was clear enough with the 'risk labels'. I didn't quite understand people would get defensive like that.

Most stuff you said were all your interpretations. I didn't say those and I certainly didn't mean it like that. You're free to get defensive straight away, if that's what you want, but I'd prefer it if you didn't because I think it leads us to bad places.
 
#56 ·
@the crow one last comment - what you said to me was insulting (that I don't come to my own ideas, that what I believe (and hold as a core value of the world) is 'doublestink' that I create conflict simply by not having religion etc). I don't dislike talking to you because you don't agree with me. I dislike talking to you because you are insulting and dismissive of my beliefs. If you had stayed away from insults I would have respected your words more.

However, I'm sorry that what I said upset you, because clearly it has. I didn't mean what I said the way you have taken it, but I can see why you have felt that way. Again, I'm very sorry to have upset you over this. You upset me, I upset you - neither of us feels good after this exchange, so doesn't it seem like a good thing that we don't argue anymore? I am very sorry. I knew this was the wrong time for me to engage in a debate because I don't have my usual diplomacy but I did it anyway, hurting both you and me in the process. I have learned my lesson and just won't come here again for a while.

@Tucken I'm sorry that I misinterpreted what you said. I would explain why I see those things in your words, but as the crow has just demonstrated I am not in the right place to be doing this. I will bow out now. Again, I'm sorry that I offended you. I hope you and Teddy and everyone else can have a productive discussion on the topic.
 
#61 ·
OK, I know I'm answering an old thread, so forgive me.

Well for me, I'm Catholic. I have a good relationship with God, and enjoy serving my church in various ways. I believe that religion is a personal experience, and you can't dictate to others what to believe and so on. For me, I believe mostly in the commandment that Jesus gave us: "Love one another as I have loved you." This commandment encompasses all Ten Commandments, because if you love God and one another, you will not steal, worship other gods, kill or commit adultary.

However, I don't take everything in the Bible at face-value. What most people are angry at the Bible is the traditional roles it gives men and women. What I have to say is this, it was applicable in that context, in those days, men worked and women stayed at home. However, nowadays, women are educated and they should pursue their own dreams. It isn't right to tell them to stay at home and take care of babies, if they'd rather go out to work. It should be left to a woman to choose what she wants to do.

What I love most about my religion is not just the sense of security that it gives me. I also love the, well, feeling of home. I've always had a really close relationship with Mother Mary. When I attend Novena after a long time of not attending, I really feel like the prodigal child. It feels like home. It feels as though Mary is inviting me to spend time with her Son, and that is the true meaning of being Catholic, to have a personal relationship with Jesus.
 
#62 ·
To be honest i didnt read your whole post, it was really long. I did (i think) get the gist... that ISFJers are more likely to be Christians. I am not religious at all so we arent talking about me but i think that while this could be accurate, its in my opinon, not related to type. For example its been said that most females in the US are ISFJ type (that it is the most common type). The vast majority of the US is also Christian (of religious types). So chances are they would overlap at some point.
 
#63 ·
I have to agree whole-heartedly with @MCRTS 's post.
I know it may seem weird to some people that some Christians tend to pick and choose what part of the religion they choose to follow/agree with. However, I think that a person's relationship with God should be just that--between that person and God. I do believe that we, as Christians, are supposed to be disciples by spreading the word of God to others and living as examples, but that does not mean forcing the religion onto others. I have had several conversations with my boyfriend about religion and faith (he is an agnostic xNTP). Everytime he says that he doesn't see why I want him to believe in what I believe so much. I think it's the ISFJ in me... My primary interest is still the safety and security of others. So if I believe (which I absolutely do) in heaven and hell, I'm going to do what I can to ensure that my loved ones will end up in what I think to be the safe and secure spot after death, Heaven.

Another thing I think non-believers have a hard time with, is that they think that Christians say they're going to hell for not believing. I, personally, would NEVER tell someone they are going to hell for ANYTHING. That is NOT my place nor is it the place of any person here on earth, no matter how "holy" they are. I believe that God is the one and only judge. We can't know how He will judge us, and we can't know how he will judge others.

I think our main job as Christians is to spread God's word, lead by example and pray for everyone...or to sum it up again "Love one another as I have loved you."
 
#64 ·
I personally am not a christian. But I do believe in God and the bible. Now, previously I was very much just following what my family was doing, without giving much thought into it, but recently I've been trying to figure stuff out for myself, which is obviously a good route in matters of following God. So being less of an ISFJ would be a good idea in my opinion lol :p
 
#65 ·
I am ISFJ and am beginning to attend church again, although not the same as my mother who goes to a high Anglican church. I have chosen to go to a Quaker meeting house. I like this type of Christianity as I feel it isn't judging. If someone belongs to a different religion or indeed doesn't believe in God at all but is a kind good person this is what matters to me and this is an aspect of Quakerism. I think it isn't right to judge people - whether they have broken the law or hurt someone. While this is be challenging one doesn't know influencing factors, such as their childhood etc. I like helping friends etc and I think being kind and gentle is so important.

My personality type changed - I think I was EFSJ when I changed my mind about religion - going from an athiest to believing in God again - although I think I'm still a people person just a lot more reflective and I feel calmer.
 
#67 ·
I could post paragraphs and paragraphs on this, but I dont want to offend anyone. So, I'll just say -

I do not believe in god, or religion.
 
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