[paintingSkies]

I would like to share my journey of self growth:



As a teenager I was extremely shy...had only one close friend. I was fearful and anxious about not measuring up, failing, and looking inadequate in people's eyes. I dreaded being on the spotlight, giving presentations, even working in groups... I just preferred to be by myself, watching, observing, reflecting...living my life through my memories and present musings/thoughts.

I tried to be a good daughter, not causing any trouble.... not asking for anything. As a young girl I felt I didn’t have any right to ask my parents for the things i wanted or needed, so I never asked. I sacrificed what I wanted for others . Being dependable and always polite, unassuming... Trying to live life without stepping into people's toes, not voicing my opinions in order to keep peace.

I realized during my college year how unsatisfied I was. I longed for deep and meaningful relationship yet I kept pushing people away...because i always felt like I gave too much, and them too little. Because I gave so much to the point of sacrifice, I held my friends to a higher standard. What i learned is this: ISFJ is like a bank, our friends can withdraw a lot from us, but eventually they need to make deposits otherwise we become bankrupt. We need to limit the withdrawal otherwise we become bitter and resentful for giving too much. Fellow ISFJ it’s okay to say no, it’s okay to assert our needs, it’s okay to ask for help.

The second thing that was keeping from making meaningful relationships is that I held myself back. I didn’t share my true opinions and thoughts… for fear of people not liking me or hurting and offending them. Truth is if we are ever going to make real friends, we need to be authentic and real, even if that means disagreeing with people (or hurting their feelings). As I challenged myself to growth, I learned that we are not responsible for other people’s feelings. They are adults so they should be responsible for their own feelings. Plus they are not going to die if we disagree with them. Sometimes the truth hurts, and sometimes being blunt and truthful is better than pretending everything is okay just to avoid a confrontation.

This past year I have made a lot of changes, most for the good. I’d become more assertive, confident in myself, and less fearful. There’s still a long way to go, but I am hopeful. Even if I fail or stumble, it's okay. After all no one is immune to failure.

Any similar experiences? Any advice to further self-growth, particularly for ISFJs?

[Martini]

I'm really hoping that I won't come across as judgmental, but I'll risk it anyway...honesty is my best policy.

1. "ISFJs are like a bank" : This raises a question for me, to be honest. What you described sounds like a transactional business relationship to me rather than an intimate, personal relation. Shouldn't a friendship/relationship be unconditional, unassuming, patient, and mutually accepting? For instance, my non-NT friends "give" back to me in a way they do best (but not necessarily in a way I find most efficient/practical); sometimes they take-take-take-take from me when they feel extremely down or overwhelmed. However, because I love them unconditionally & love them just the way they are, I dare not keep account of their give-and-take with me. I gladly give, give, give, and give without expecting/asking for anything in return, because of the deep seated trust I have placed in them, and quite frankly, out of love. My NF friends know this concept quite well; when I have trouble dealing with my emotions and other internal turmoils (my NT weakness), they're so happy to "give", that just by seeing that attitude of unconditional love and support alone cheers me back up. Verdict is, if you expect others to operate as if they're your bank accounts, it's no wonder you burn yourself out from dissatisfaction. Does this make sense?

2. Fearful/feeling of inadequacy: To me, this is the flipside of #1. I'm sure you can figure this one out by now.

[paintingSkies]

Relationships are give and take..it is transactional to a certain degree that's why I gave the bank as an example. That's good that you can love your friends unconditionally, few people can... I admit that I can't...there comes to the point that I could use some reciprocation especially at low moments in my life. Is it wrong to expect that your friends be there for you at those times? I am human, and there are times when I need a friend to lean on and depend on. when my friends are not there for me at those times, I get disappointed and sometimes angry... I was there for them when they needed me, how come they aren't there for me now? The bank example is just an example of course friendships are more complex than that.

Not everyone is the same, what could work for you might not work for others. everyone have different needs.... As for me, eventually when i give give give give...there comes a point when I have nothing left to give and I need to take. I don't go in to friendships expecting something in return, measuring exactly how much must be returned to me. what i don't like is when they start taking advantage of my goodness,... so then it's time to "limit the withdrawals"

Friendships are not meant to be consistently one-sided, eventually the other party would have to reciprocate.

[teddy564339]

I'm really hoping that I won't come across as judgmental, but I'll risk it anyway...honesty is my best policy.

1. "ISFJs are like a bank" : This raises a question for me, to be honest. What you described sounds like a transactional business relationship to me rather than an intimate, personal relation. Shouldn't a friendship/relationship be unconditional, unassuming, patient, and mutually accepting? For instance, my non-NT friends "give" back to me in a way they do best (but not necessarily in a way I find most efficient/practical); sometimes they take-take-take-take from me when they feel extremely down or overwhelmed. However, because I love them unconditionally & love them just the way they are, I dare not keep account of their give-and-take with me. I gladly give, give, give, and give without expecting/asking for anything in return, because of the deep seated trust I have placed in them, and quite frankly, out of love. My NF friends know this concept quite well; when I have trouble dealing with my emotions and other internal turmoils (my NT weakness), they're so happy to "give", that just by seeing that attitude of unconditional love and support alone cheers me back up. Verdict is, if you expect others to operate as if they're your bank accounts, it's no wonder you burn yourself out from dissatisfaction. Does this make sense?

While I understand why you would think this way, it is very, very different for an ISFJ. The reason why is that from the time in which we're young children, we naturally give, give and give. We look to please parents and authority figures with very little resistance. Unlike ENTJ's, we don't naturally seek out and go for what we want...we're quiet, unassuming, and we diligently work in the background. We get satisfaction out of doing this and helping people, so we do it very consistently and diligently.

The problem is, this leads to us being taken advantage of very, very much so...because we're bad at standing up for ourselves. We take it again, and again, and again...and eventually it all builds up...and often it gives an ugly result, and we turn nasty for everyone, including ourselves.

It's not like we're trying to keep track of people "paying us back" for all that we've done for them. We're not trying to be morally superior, and the vast majority of the time, we don't expect anything back for what we've done. But paintingSkies mentioned the balance of it for the sake of our own health and sanity...it's the only way we can survive, by standing up for ourselves, asking for help, and making people give us back things in return...because if we don't, we won't.


I think this is best diagrammed by the advice that I've read about in one MBTI book...it gives advice for all 16 types. I don't readily have the advice for ENTJ's available, but it talked about doing things like avoiding driving others as hard as yourself, leaving out your need for controlling others, not appearing aggressive or overly confident, and anticipating your loved ones' needs.

The ISFJ advice, however, is here:

Advice for ISFJ's



So I do see your point, but I also honestly think it's very different from an ISFJ's perspective.






Also, I agree wholeheartedly with everything paintingSkies said.

[jamescarrolls]

I would like to share my journey of self growth:

As a teenager I was extremely shy...had only one close friend. I was fearful and anxious about not measuring up, failing, and looking inadequate in people's eyes. I dreaded being on the spotlight, giving presentations, even working in groups... I just preferred to be by myself, watching, observing, reflecting...living my life through my memories and present musings/thoughts.

I tried to be a good daughter, not causing any trouble.... not asking for anything. As a young girl I felt I didn’t have any right to ask my parents for the things i wanted or needed, so I never asked. I sacrificed what I wanted for others . Being dependable and always polite, unassuming... Trying to live life without stepping into people's toes, not voicing my opinions in order to keep peace.

I realized during my college year how unsatisfied I was. I longed for deep and meaningful relationship yet I kept pushing people away...because i always felt like I gave too much, and them too little. Because I gave so much to the point of sacrifice, I held my friends to a higher standard. What i learned is this: ISFJ is like a bank, our friends can withdraw a lot from us, but eventually they need to make deposits otherwise we become bankrupt. We need to limit the withdrawal otherwise we become bitter and resentful for giving too much. Fellow ISFJ it’s okay to say no, it’s okay to assert our needs, it’s okay to ask for help.

The second thing that was keeping from making meaningful relationships is that I held myself back. I didn’t share my true opinions and thoughts… for fear of people not liking me or hurting and offending them. Truth is if we are ever going to make real friends, we need to be authentic and real, even if that means disagreeing with people (or hurting their feelings). As I challenged myself to growth, I learned that we are not responsible for other people’s feelings. They are adults so they should be responsible for their own feelings. Plus they are not going to die if we disagree with them. Sometimes the truth hurts, and sometimes being blunt and truthful is better than pretending everything is okay just to avoid a confrontation.

This past year I have made a lot of changes, most for the good. I’d become more assertive, confident in myself, and less fearful. There’s still a long way to go, but I am hopeful. Even if I fail or stumble, it's okay. After all no one is immune to failure.

Any similar experiences? Any advice to further self-growth, particularly for ISFJs?

Wonderfully well said!!!!

Yes... in any type of relationship it is all about communication. Communicating eachothers needs. Once again, I agree and like your way of putting it, "Give and take." If all your life you've taught yourself to give, give, give..... How unfair it is for you to not get it back in return. One thing I learned is that I didn't know how to communicate these needs. In the beginning it was difficult for me to express this. But there were unselfish people in my life who taught me how to set healthy constructive boundaries.

I had to learn to accept and receive from others. I needed to learn setting healthy boundaries by expressing our own personal needs. How can one know how the other one feels if we do not let others know how we feel??? Is it because we are afraid or try to avoid conflicts and wish to keep the peace? Well,I've learned through personal experience that sometimes it does happen about conflicts and upsetting others. I may feel uncomfortable because I have gotten used to doing this, and that I do not wish to hurt peoples feelings or just do not know how to say no. But that is only because I have gotten used to it. This took time for me to change and most of all, courage.
But I've learned to express my needs from my friends that are close to me. I've let them know what I expect from them and that I too will be there for them. And if they understand and accept my friendship, not only do I get my needs met, but they as well get more of me. Is this a selfish act??? Yes... And do you know that I have many who will be there for me because of communicating this. This is quite healthy to know where we stand instead of fear of the unknown. This is just my personal experience.

Once again....

All of a sudden you changed and set healthy boundaries. Before you set these boundaries, you were just being you. You taught us how to take from not only ISFJ's but to people who gave freely of themselves. Later, maybe you couldn't distinguish who were the ones that loved you for who you are, and from the ones that just took advantage of you.

Absolutely!!!!! Friendship and the people close to you is a give and take relationship. But you were not getting what you needed from the ones you counted on. How unfair. Life doesn't have to be that way and it shouldn't. The ones that love you, you let them know how you feel and ask for their help and understanding. If they truly love you, they will help you set healthy boundaries so you can grow. They know that they can already count on you and you need to express to us what you need from us. Please continue doing that. We cannot read eachother's mind.

In life.... there are different levels of friendship. You have the choice of how much you wish to give to others and set healthy boundaries. Example... In our inner circle of friends or any type of relationship, we have an inner circle of imaginary layer of rings. You are in the middle of these circle or rings. And in these rings, the closer they are to the inner rings, the closer they are to you. These are your boundary circles. You have the choice of how close or how far they are allowed in your inner circle. In time.... You determine how close you wish for them to enter your circle of life. And when you do this, the closer they are there for you and vice versa. Your different levels of friendship should at least be balanced and equal to the give and take to the relationship that is valued.

I agree with what you are saying. Being assertive to get your needs met for anyone. Being proactive. So you can not only be there for your friends but also be there for yourself. Because if you are not getting your needs met, then we will have a much more difficult time in the long run.


I hope this made sense. And if not, pay no attention. Not here to argue. We call all agree to disagree.


Sincerely,
Johnny

[Marvinteck]

Any similar experiences?

You just described the story of my life.

[sts06]

What you described sounds like a transactional business relationship to me rather than an intimate, personal relation. Shouldn't a friendship/relationship be unconditional, unassuming, patient, and mutually accepting?

I agree with what Teddy said about this topic. I think the problem is we aren't very good at standing up for ourselves so it doesn't take long for people to learn to take advantage of us, and it's not just in friendships. I have recently quit my job because the atmosphere was toxic for me. I'm the sort of person who give, give, give, gives to whatever I'm doing so I put in a lot of effort. Soon they learned that if someone was sick I would always fill in the shift if I possibly could because I felt like it was my duty. It wasn't much later when they started guilt tripping me into taking the shifts even if I wanted to say no. There was no reciprocation in the relationship. I was made to feel guilty if I was sick and in one case was called in to fill in for someone who just wanted a day off even though I was actually sick. Now a lot of that was my own fault -- I couldn't bring myself to say no. Once I learned to say no and stop doing extra shifts when I didn't want to the atmosphere became very unpleasant. They didn't like that their 'go-to' person was finally saying no and the guilt trip attempts became extremely difficult to handle and they started picking apart every aspect of how I did my job. While I was happy to have stood up for myself I was extremely unhappy with what else was happening (to the point of dreading going to work and specifically avoiding doing shifts where one person was working) so I quit. If I had been assertive from the start it wouldn't have been like that at the end. However, now I know how to be more assertive from the start I won't have the same issues in my next job. While it was unpleasant to live through it has been a huge growth experience for me.

So I guess what I'm saying in a very long-winded way is that what paintingSkies said in the opening post was very recognisable to me as a way I have acted in the past. The acknowledgement that I actually deserve reciprocation, and not being used, was a massive revelation to me. Of course we need to give in every relationship, but always giving and never taking (a really bad habit for ISFJs) is as unhealthy as always taking and never giving. As you say, every relationship needs to be about giving of oneself to others while in return getting something back from them.

[kexx]

You just described my life basically... >__> Although I seem to forgive the whole not giving things back more than other ISFJs do. I was recently told that I should take a class on how to be assertive and that it would really help my life. Or just to try and do it myself and just start with small things and then work my way up. Right now I feel like I'm being taken advantage of by my roommate and I don't know how to be assertive about things or say no...It's only with HUGE things that I feel like I'm being taken advantage of. (like my roomie oweing me over 1k... -_-)

[paintingSkies]

I agree with what you are saying. Being assertive to get your needs met for anyone. Being proactive. So you can not only be there for your friends but also be there for yourself. Because if you are not getting your needs met, then we will have a much more difficult time in the long run.

I agree. When we love ourselves and respect our own needs, we can love others more.

[paintingSkies]

You just described my life basically... >__> Although I seem to forgive the whole not giving things back more than other ISFJs do. I was recently told that I should take a class on how to be assertive and that it would really help my life. Or just to try and do it myself and just start with small things and then work my way up. Right now I feel like I'm being taken advantage of by my roommate and I don't know how to be assertive about things or say no...It's only with HUGE things that I feel like I'm being taken advantage of. (like my roomie oweing me over 1k... -_-)

I have been thinking about taking classes too...reading self-improvement books can also help. We all have the capacity to change...it all starts mentally in our mind, by believing in ourselves and our worth, and of course, being motivated enough to change.

Life will push us in many directions, experiences will shape us.