[Gandalf_]

Ok. I'm totally going to just stream of conscious on you. Mainly I want to introduce myself and let you all know that I plan on stalking you in order to better understand my wife. But if you would be willing to engage with me directly, that might be more helpful to me.

So my wife and I have been married for four years now, and I desperately love her. But I find it very difficult to communicate that love to her in a way that she can receive. I really just want to make her feel special, you guys, but I'm honestly kind of bad at this, I guess. The thing is, I can be a very romantic person. I'm constantly writing her poems and singing her songs and flirting with her and just really trying my best to make her feel special. And I think she sort of appreciates those things, sort of. But I just don't think she's really picking up what I'm putting down. I almost feel like I have to be a different person to have her appreciate my love for her. Like, she wants me to be like her Dad or something. Her Dad, who texts her 50 times a day, and calls her on her way to work and her way home, and who makes a HUGE deal out of holidays and birthdays, and who blah blah blah. I like her Dad, so don't hear me wrong. But that's just not me. I operate differently, and think differently, and communicate love differently. I'm never going to be a holiday, party, Birthday, gifting kind of person, because those just aren't things I'm good at. I don't receive love that way, personally, so maybe that's why I'm not good at it. And I'm not much of a calendar person, either. I'm a big picture strategy person. She's a details, gets stuff done kind of person. So she's naturally better at calendars and birthdays, holidays, and just planning detailed stuff like that. And I'm not a text 50 times during the day kind of person, because I get engaged in my work and I'm totally lost in it for hours and hours.

Ok, please help. Especially if you're married to an ENTJ, let me know that so that we can talk more.



Here's a random list of other marriage difficulties you might be able to help me with, but maybe I'm flooding the pump at this point:

(1) We talk past each other.
(2) In arguments, she's constantly appealing to morals, which seems like a personal attack to me (likes she's calling me a bad person), and she doesn't seem to listen at all when I try and explain myself in a "rational" way. I put that in quotes because I don't mean to say I'm more rational, just that I speak differently and I need some kind of word to describe that difference.
(3) She would totally be mortified to know that I'm telling complete strangers about all this and asking for help. Is that an ISFJ thing?
(4) She never wants to go meet new friends, but at the same time she's constantly wishing she had them (we just moved. I'm not imply she's not sociable, which is not true). Why is that? How can I help?
(5) She absolutely loves dramas. I'm fine with enjoy a drama with her because I love her and I know she likes that. So why will she not try and enjoy stuff I like, like documentaries and discussing the implications of them?
(6) She's a completely amazing interior designer. I mean, one of the best. But she insists on judging herself based on other people's gift sets. As if she's less intelligent for being different. I could never do what she does. I can't even make my own handwriting pretty. But I don't think I'm less intelligent because of that. What's the deal? How do I help with this?

Ok, that's all I've got for now. Please help me you guys.

P.S. Our marriage is not on the rocks or something, just in case you're tempted to think in that direction. We totally love each other, and I take it these are natural difficulties that will arise when an ENTJ is married to an ISFJ.

[Laney]

Get your wife into typology! I think if she can see you are making efforts to speak her language even though you have her own she will be grateful/happy and maybe she'll try to speak your love language too.

[Gandalf_]

Thanks Laney. I have tried that a little, but maybe I should try it again. What is it about typology that you enjoy? Maybe knowing that will help me understand how to make it appealing to her.

[Laney]

Understanding *how* I work, and how other people work so I can better relate to them. For instance, before I knew my husband was an ISTP I thought he was just inconsiderate and cold but I know now that isn't it at all. His mind just works differently. I now have the tools I need to bridge he communication gap with him and see that he's showing me he cares in his own way. It's just up to me to accept it.

[Gandalf_]

That's helpful. Thanks.

[teddy564339]

Ok. I'm totally going to just stream of conscious on you. Mainly I want to introduce myself and let you all know that I plan on stalking you in order to better understand my wife. But if you would be willing to engage with me directly, that might be more helpful to me.

So first off, I'll say that ENTJs are definitely the one type that I've had the most trouble getting along with. There's of course so much more to people than type, and certainly ISFJs and ENTJs can get along...my dad and my oldest brother are both ENTJs, and despite our clashing we have overall good relationships. But I say this because I think it's very remarkable that you and your wife have what sounds to be a healthy marriage given the type differences.

I think one thing that helps is that you sound like you're pretty sensitive to her feelings and care about them. I think that seems to be my biggest point of conflict with ENTJs...I'm very sensitive and feelings drive my whole entire world, whereas ENTJs seem to very focused on goals of constantly fixing and improving everything in a more work-like and professional manner. It's just a huge difference in interests. So given all of that, it sounds to me like you two are doing very well, and I definitely appreciate you having the desire to want to help your wife.

Here are a few threads that where I share a lot of my thoughts on ENTJs and why there's usually a lot of conflicts between ENTJs and ISFJs.

Help a poor NT understand you

What do ISFJs think of ENTJs?



Starting on page 4:

Arrogance vs Confidence

So my wife and I have been married for four years now, and I desperately love her. But I find it very difficult to communicate that love to her in a way that she can receive. I really just want to make her feel special, you guys, but I'm honestly kind of bad at this, I guess. The thing is, I can be a very romantic person. I'm constantly writing her poems and singing her songs and flirting with her and just really trying my best to make her feel special. And I think she sort of appreciates those things, sort of. But I just don't think she's really picking up what I'm putting down. I almost feel like I have to be a different person to have her appreciate my love for her.

This might just be a difference in love languages, or it might just be a difference in how each of you experience love and affection. And if you both just naturally have differences here, then I think it comes down to the fact that both of you may have to compromise a bit. You may have to do things that don't feel as natural to you, but she'll have to do the same thing.


I also think clear communication helps. Ss and Ns often have very different ways of communicating, and this is compounded when you have an SF and an NT. I think for me, what helps a lot with NTs is when they're very transparent and clear about their feelings. ISFJs often have a way of imagining negative things are present when they're really not.

So sometimes I think just straight up telling her that you want to make her feel special because you love her may mean just as much (if not more) than doing romantic things.

Like, she wants me to be like her Dad or something. Her Dad, who texts her 50 times a day, and calls her on her way to work and her way home, and who makes a HUGE deal out of holidays and birthdays, and who blah blah blah. I like her Dad, so don't hear me wrong. But that's just not me. I operate differently, and think differently, and communicate love differently. I'm never going to be a holiday, party, Birthday, gifting kind of person, because those just aren't things I'm good at. I don't receive love that way, personally, so maybe that's why I'm not good at it. And I'm not much of a calendar person, either. I'm a big picture strategy person. She's a details, gets stuff done kind of person. So she's naturally better at calendars and birthdays, holidays, and just planning detailed stuff like that. And I'm not a text 50 times during the day kind of person, because I get engaged in my work and I'm totally lost in it for hours and hours.

ISFJs do often have a natural tendency to get dependent upon others for validation and affection. A lot of this is down to our Si/inferior Ne combination, especially when our Fe is thrown in there as well.

A couple of places where I've seen this pop up:



Tell me how to make my ISFJ hubby happy



And a quote giving advice to ISFJs from this page:

ISFJ Personal Growth

Think of the people who are closest to you. As you think of each person, tell yourself "this person has their own life going on, and they are more concerned with their own life than they are with mine." Remember that this doesn't mean that they don't care about you. It's the natural order of things. Try to visualize what that person is feeling right now. What emotions are they enacting, what thoughts are they having? Don't pass judgment, or compare their situation to your own.

I think this is a big point of conflict between ISFJs and NTs, particularly ENTJs. ISFJs often have a need for validation from others (often through words telling them how they're valued and appreciated), and ENTJs often see this as a waste of time and energy. So I think again, finding a compromise is probably the best thing.

I think if you can get her to understand that you express love differently than her dad, and this is doesn't mean that you love her any less, then it might help her relax and not expect you to do it as much. On the other hand, I think it will also help if you make an effort to step out of your comfort zone and do some of these things a little more than you normally would.


And if you can get to the point where you can explain to her that you are kind of "going the extra mile" by doing this, then maybe it will help her to understand that you are compromising.

Unfortunately, she may not see this. ISFJs, particularly those who know nothing about the MBTI, do have a bad way of sticking to what they've always known and believing that in certain areas all people are just like them. If this is the case, you'll have to be pretty patient, and you'll just have to constantly explain to her that you really are just naturally different than her, and that it takes a huge amount of effort to do the things that she's more naturally comfortable with.

(1) We talk past each other.

This isn't surprising. It happens in a lot of relationships, but I can definitely see it happening with an ISFJ/ENTJ one. I think the best thing to do is to start with points where you can agree...and that point may just be that you have different priorities. If you can agree on this point, you might be able to find ways to structure conversations. You might be able to say "Ok, we're going to focus on your points first. I will listen and not argue with you. I will not change the subject. Let's focus on what's important to you. Then, once we've done everything with that, you will agree to do the exact same thing with what I want to focus on."

(2) In arguments, she's constantly appealing to morals, which seems like a personal attack to me (likes she's calling me a bad person), and she doesn't seem to listen at all when I try and explain myself in a "rational" way. I put that in quotes because I don't mean to say I'm more rational, just that I speak differently and I need some kind of word to describe that difference.

This is largely an Fe/Fi difference, especially since you have inferior Fi. Te and Fe clash greatly...one big reason why ISFJs and ENTJs have so much trouble getting along.

You view the world through external logic because of your Te, but she views it through a set of social principles because of Fe. What you view as subjective she views as objective, and the same is probably true the other way around.


I think it helps if you both realize that you just naturally have different values. I think it will help you to realize that neither one of you is attacking the other, even though oftentimes it may feel that way.

I think you can also often convince an ISFJ to change their mind more by appealing to how decisions affect other people rather than appealing to their logic. ISFJs can be irrational when feelings start being involved, but we can also be very good at using our rationality to make sound decisions once we see how this can help other people. It's almost like we first have to feel good about our purpose for doing something, but once we do, we can very rationally go about how we do it.


Si is also a bit of a problem...ISFJs tend to stick to what they've known for a very long time. The best way to get us to change our minds is to show us concrete proof that something new is better.... a theory alone usually won't do much for us, even if it sounds like it makes sense.

(3) She would totally be mortified to know that I'm telling complete strangers about all this and asking for help. Is that an ISFJ thing?

Probably so. But that's probably because she would feel embarrassed and would feel like that means you think there's something wrong with her or something wrong with the marriage. Inferior Ne can lead ISFJs to get over-sensitive about things like that. I think you should focus more on the fact that you're trying to make both you happier and not worry about the details of her worrying.


I trained myself a while ago to live by the phrase "What other people say about me to others is none of my business". There's no way I'll ever know what someone says about me to others, but they clearly have reasons for saying what they say to me and what they choose not to say. I'd rather focus on the positive than the negative that may or may not be there.

(4) She never wants to go meet new friends, but at the same time she's constantly wishing she had them (we just moved. I'm not imply she's not sociable, which is not true). Why is that? How can I help?

Moving is just an extremely difficult thing for an ISFJ, I think. I hate having to meet new friends too. The reasoning is kind of complex....it has a lot to do with Si.

I think you just have to be kind of patient wtih her on this one. Help her take very small, baby steps. Don't push too much on her at once.


ISFJs just aren't good at dealing with new situations. It just takes us a lot of time to adapt.

(5) She absolutely loves dramas. I'm fine with enjoy a drama with her because I love her and I know she likes that. So why will she not try and enjoy stuff I like, like documentaries and discussing the implications of them?

This is down to Si again. I think when you have dominant Si like we do, every new thing tried that we don't enjoy is seen as a colossal waste and it drives us insane. This is why other types often find us boring and close-minded sometimes.

I think it's more helpful to focus on the kinds of things the two of you both do like. That's what I do with my friends; I have some friends that like some things I like (and hate others) and other friends who like other things that I like (and hate others). So what I do is not try to convince friends to like things that we disagree on....I enjoy some things with some friends, and other things with others.

You and your wife don't have to like all of the same things, and you don't have to do everything together. Personally, I would not watch a drama with her just to make her happy. If you truly want to, then do it. But if you don't, don't do it. If she complains about it, then tell her that you don't like them. Tell her that you watching a drama for her is just like her watching a documentary...you're having to make that same kind of sacrifice. That way she'll see that asking you to like a drama is the same as asking her to like a documentary.


Now, if this isn't true...if you don't mind watching the dramas, then you should just do it because you like it. But if that's the case, you can't complain when she doesn't do something she doesn't want to....because it's not teh same thing anymore.


Basically, you can't do something like that just to make her happy and expect her to automatically do the same. It would be nice if she did, but you can't expect anything in return. In fact, it usually seems like NTs hate that sort of behavior in ISFJs...they hate feeling like the ISFJ is doing something nice and wants something in return.

(6) She's a completely amazing interior designer. I mean, one of the best. But she insists on judging herself based on other people's gift sets. As if she's less intelligent for being different. I could never do what she does. I can't even make my own handwriting pretty. But I don't think I'm less intelligent because of that. What's the deal? How do I help with this?

ISFJs often have confidence issues and compare ourselves to others too much. I don't know if you can really help with this one, it's something she just has to work through. I think if you just help her focus on what makes her happy, then that will help the most. Just tell her that what matters most in life is being happy, and that comparing herself to others will never make her happy. If she focuses more on the positives of her own work, then she'll feel better and won't waste her time and energy on negativity that doesn't help her in any way. But she has to be the one to discipline herself to do that.

Ok, that's all I've got for now. Please help me you guys.

P.S. Our marriage is not on the rocks or something, just in case you're tempted to think in that direction. We totally love each other, and I take it these are natural difficulties that will arise when an ENTJ is married to an ISFJ.

Yeah, it sounds like you guys are doing very well given the type differences. I know my response was uber long, but hopefully it will be helpful in some way.

[Gandalf_]

@teddy564339 Wow, Teddy, this post is totally awesome. Really, I'm dumb struck. Thanks so much for taking the time to do this, and I'll probably keep coming back to it to reread it. I already have a few times. And I haven't even checked out the links yet. You're just completely fantastic. ... And you remind me of my wife a little in this way: in going out of your way to do something difficult that will help someone else, even though you'll probably not get rewarded by that person to a similar degree. She does this all the time, but one quick example would be the time she completely redesigned her friend's room and made it awesome - took forever because of detailed planning and even getting the friend out of the house for a couple days - but the friend never really seemed to invest in her too much, from my perspective, since they were really childhood friends and were starting to grow apart. Anyways, that's just to say thank you and I realize your effort here will probably not be fully repaid, but I think you're awesome.

[teddy564339]

@teddy564339 Wow, Teddy, this post is totally awesome. Really, I'm dumb struck. Thanks so much for taking the time to do this, and I'll probably keep coming back to it to reread it. I already have a few times. And I haven't even checked out the links yet. You're just completely fantastic. ... And you remind me of my wife a little in this way: in going out of your way to do something difficult that will help someone else, even though you'll probably not get rewarded by that person to a similar degree. She does this all the time, but one quick example would be the time she completely redesigned her friend's room and made it awesome - took forever because of detailed planning and even getting the friend out of the house for a couple days - but the friend never really seemed to invest in her too much, from my perspective, since they were really childhood friends and were starting to grow apart. Anyways, that's just to say thank you and I realize your effort here will probably not be fully repaid, but I think you're awesome.

Well, for me, I actually feel very rewarded when I do something and it's genuinely appreciated. So for me I actually enjoy typing out a long response like this if I feel like it will help you and be of value to you. This is particularly true for me since you're an ENTJ, and when an ENTJ shows as much interest as you have in understanding your ISFJ wife, it makes me feel like it's a really good opportunity to be of help....and that makes me feel really good.

Some people see this as a negative...and in some ways it is. There's a thread about ISFJs having a "need to be needed" which can make us too dependent on others for our own happiness. Some people even find it very manipulative...they believe that we are only doing nice things in order to get validation instead of doing the nice thing to make others happy.

For me (and many ISFJs, I think) I don't think this is true. For many of us I do think that we like helping others to make them happy. But I also think that if we do this for long enough and feel like we're not appreciated for it, we kind of reach a breaking point and start feeling like we're being taken for granted and we can turn quite ugly.


I do think it's very helpful for ISFJs to work on not being dependent upon others for validation/appreciation. I think it's very important for us to feel good about ourselves just for being who we are and doing what we do and not needing others to compliment us for it.

All of that being said, if your wife is anything like me, whenever she does something nice, if she feels genuine appreciation for it...then that will be a strong enough reward for her to keep on doing it with all of her energy. And that's why when I hear you value my post, it makes me feel very very good, and it makes me very happy to have posted it. So I definitely appreciate you typing it out.


I think in general ISFJs are pretty good at recognizing genuine appreciation compared to empty flattery, just because we're good at recognizing and remembering past actions, patterns and behaviors...if something's not consistent, we pick up on it pretty quickly. So if you're showing your wife genuine appreciation, she most likely values it. If she doesn't, then there's probably some kind of communication mishap...either there's some issue that she has that is keeping her from seeing it (sometimes negative past experiences or weak Ne can lead to this), or maybe just some miscommunication in the way the two of you communicate (as we mentioned in the love languages idea).


But anyway...I really hope some of the things I said will be of help. It's just all my opinion based on my understanding of myself and ISFJs in general, I know it's not all going to be exactly right. But I'm always happy when an ENTJ shows so much interest in ISFJs and seems to genuine care about understanding us and improving the relationship. I really hope your wife cares as much as you do about it.

[New_Day]

Coming in a little late here . . . what caught my eye was the word "relax" -- I tend to be a little anxious in the background all the time, due to being sensitive or anticipating the worst (so-called "negative intuition"). So I recall finding it really helpful, without realizing it, to take day trips with my then-husband (I was married 16 years) -- I would suddenly feel this weight dissolve, the very experiential and fresh nature of it helped me, since we can get stuck in ruts otherwise.

We did a Marriage Encounter which helped me with the communication challenges, expressing emotions better in a less-touchy and somewhat structured fashion. (I was told we talked past each other too.) We happened to have very similar values, so that helped.

I think sort of explicitly and neutrally describing and acknowledging the experience of how you are different in approaching conflict resolution might help lay a groundwork for working through that, you know, "I'm an apple, you're an orange, and together, we make juice" or something. Be real, be accepting of each of your individuality as partners, and offer lots of reassurance that you are in this through thick and thin. If there are things you need and want, pose is as what is MOST important, so she will not feel overwhelmed trying to be supportive. You might negotiate by suggesting an exchange, so that if one person cedes on one decision, you will also meet her half-way on another as part of the same negotiation, so it feels less threatening (I know sometimes I am afraid of sort of disappearing due to not being great at assertion).

A sense of belonging is very big for me, so if I have that baseline, I can be a little independent and tolerate apartness, trusting we'll come together again. I recall really wanting about 15 minutes at the end of the work day to reconnect somehow -- we do like some predictability -- so maybe you can make your routine help her feel trusting that even if you are in touch less often, that will occur reliably?

I could see really liking and appreciating getting out of myself and out of my own head (and isolation) a little if I were in a new town by having a partner who helps map out a bit of an exploration for us to share in discovering new parts of town, or new people, periodically.

Also, it may be important for her to have her own hobbies or sources of support outside of your partnership, so she has a firm foundation and sense of self there, not becoming overly dependent on being of service to others and all that. You could be in her square that way by keeping things running so she can concentrate for a few hours on that periodically, offering firm support and encouragement for her to develop that thread in her life in an ongoing way, in how she divides time and attention among many things. The nature of the hobby may change, but it can be important to have a voice and self-expression somewhere, be it in the design activities or volunteer work or . . .

Hope that helps!

:)