[Kevinaswell]

Everything you said in the OP is true.

But who cares? I've never seen any real reason to give a shit that someone else is fucked up about my lack of retarded-response.

That's on them, not me. Sorry I'm not leaking from my face just because your cat got ran over, you should get over your dependency on other peoples faces leaking just because you're fucked up about about something.

Nah meaannnnn?

[Dimensional Transition]

Deep Dark Secret #153: I feel really jealous sometimes of women who can operate at that level. I feel ignored by most men because they are looking for "most women" and not for someone like me. It has left me at times wrestling with my own femininity and who I am as a woman. Frustrating. But like I've said a few times, I am who I am.

This fascinates me. It seems that every INTP, male or female, struggles with his or her masculinity or femininity respectively. Most males feel not masculine enough because they're introverted and over-analyzing, most females feel as if they can't provide enough emotional response as is expected by society from most women.

I myself wrestle with my masculinity because I'm not quick-to-act. I don't take initiative at all. I've always had an aversion against having overly strong opinions/making decisions hastily. It just seems foolish. But it's considered masculine to do so for whatever reason... There have been way too many instances where a girl would really like me at first, but then be completely put off by the fact that I didn't take any initiative. Yeah ehh, sorry. Geez. They take that stuff way too seriously imo.

I can definitely understand female INTPs' struggle with the whole emotional thing that is supposed to be 'feminine'... Luckily I know a lot of friends who like logical girls who don't whine about everything all the time though. It's considered a good thing by many. I must admit that I'm personally more attracted to the over-emotional types though, it's kinda cute to me, but an INTP-INTP relationship seems like it'd be pretty cool too.

[Kestrel]

Thanks @Jennywocky. That was a really helpful and relatable post.

I do the 'empowering' other people thing a lot when I care, but sometimes I worry that in relationships this comes across as gold-digging or expecting them to achieve more in order to impress me, rather than just wanting them to be happy and believing in them.

When people are sad, I give them advice. But I've learned recently that sometimes all they really want to hear is, 'I understand.'

I feel so fake when I do that, though. It usually works, but it isn't a real connection, it's just a trick I learned in a book - like how estate agents learn to enforce every positive comment you make about a property they're trying to sell.

[Kestrel]

Another thing that really annoys me: when people tell me I should 'smile more'.

No. I am perfectly content. That does not mean I have to act like a 16 year-old anime caricature.

[Jennywocky]

This fascinates me. It seems that every INTP, male or female, struggles with his or her masculinity or femininity respectively. Most males feel not masculine enough because they're introverted and over-analyzing, most females feel as if they can't provide enough emotional response as is expected by society from most women.

It's interesting how that goes. I would suggest that in some ways we're an "androgynous" type, which means that we manage displease both genders. :) As a woman, I'm not emotional enough; as a male, you're not assertive enough.

I myself wrestle with my masculinity because I'm not quick-to-act. I don't take initiative at all. I've always had an aversion against having overly strong opinions/making decisions hastily. It just seems foolish. But it's considered masculine to do so for whatever reason... There have been way too many instances where a girl would really like me at first, but then be completely put off by the fact that I didn't take any initiative. Yeah ehh, sorry. Geez. They take that stuff way too seriously imo.

I understand it to a degree, since I want to be with a guy who will engage in the relationship. Sometimes INTPs are very insecure about their abilities and are scared to engage a situation because they feel they do not understand it enough yet or don't want to take a risk and be wrong. The reality is that this is simply a fact of life -- sometimes we need to engage something before we feel prepared, and we have to trust our instincts and meanwhile do our best to stay afloat. It's hard being a woman with a man who essentially always leaves the female to pick the direction, set the source, engage the situation, so that he doesn't have to make decisions in ambiguous circumstances. It comes off as kind of cowardly and also that he's not looking out for me and is willing to let me shoulder a disproportionate part of the load and the risk.

I know that's not what you're necessarily saying though. I think a mature INTP guy would be pretty cool, in that he would know at what point he needs to take action, and since he has analyzed a situation or intuited what to do, he can then do it and with less chance to make a mistake. He just has to make that shift from just "thinking about the situation" to actually "analyzing + then taking action and resolving the situation."

I can definitely understand female INTPs' struggle with the whole emotional thing that is supposed to be 'feminine'... Luckily I know a lot of friends who like logical girls who don't whine about everything all the time though. It's considered a good thing by many.

I was with an INFP who adored me while we were together, although on occasion he would also complain about how I didn't engage him as much as he desired. I don't typically find many guys like that, though; they're nice to me, but I feel overlooked in general, there's always some flashier and flirtier woman around to catch men's eyes.

I must admit that I'm personally more attracted to the over-emotional types though, it's kinda cute to me,

See? :) I think it's kind of a "moth to flame" thing, males are not nearly as prone to that behavior, so there's something about the difference that is attractive and can pull a man out of himself some -- or she plays that role so that he doesn't have to but it's still part of the relationship.

To ante up, I'll admit I sometimes find very assertive/confident men attractive (kind of fun for a fling), but at the same time I know that if I'm with a man who is too much that way, I'll feel imposed upon and kind of annoyed by it.

but an INTP-INTP relationship seems like it'd be pretty cool too.

It could be. It depends on the INTPs. I'm attracted to the more balanced INTP types, whereas the more extreme versions (the ones that seem to be lopsided -- all intellect and taking pride in being aloof/distant and with no concern for relationship/emotions) I could do without.

[Jennywocky]

Another thing that really annoys me: when people tell me I should 'smile more'.
No. I am perfectly content. That does not mean I have to act like a 16 year-old anime caricature.

:D

You should walk around talking and smiling all day like you're trying to split your skull open. They'll shut up.

I do the 'empowering' other people thing a lot when I care, but sometimes I worry that in relationships this comes across as gold-digging or expecting them to achieve more in order to impress me, rather than just wanting them to be happy and believing in them.

Hmmm. I would just say to have your feelers out during the conversation. Basically I am always adjusting to what I am perceiving from the other person. And it's not like I'm just feeding them a line -- I typically have a range of possibilities for how the conversation can go in a way that is still authentic to who I am, and so I merely let them tailor which possibility I focus on.

When people are sad, I give them advice. But I've learned recently that sometimes all they really want to hear is, 'I understand.'

Very true. They don't always want advice. Especially other women. There is a need to just talk and share and not feel so alone.

I feel so fake when I do that, though. It usually works, but it isn't a real connection, it's just a trick I learned in a book - like how estate agents learn to enforce every positive comment you make about a property they're trying to sell.

:( What would help you feel like the connection was real? do you have to be able to give advice, especially if you think they're taking a wrong turn?

If someone is constantly coming to me and demanding advice but refusing anything I offer them, I quickly get turned off and stop offering advice (and I start cutting the conversation short). But sometimes people just want to feel close to someone else, and no advice in the moment will ease their current pain. Some of the most supportive times I feel I have given someone is just sitting with them when they're sad or sick, and reading a book. There is no obligation on them or me to say anything; the fact that I care regardless of any discussion we might have or ideas we share/conflict on is embodied in the fact that I am there, tangibly, with them and not leaving.

[Kevinaswell]

Another thing that really annoys me: when people tell me I should 'smile more'.

No. I am perfectly content. That does not mean I have to act like a 16 year-old anime caricature.

Recently I've done an experiment---just crack the corners of your lips A SMIDGEN more than usual. Not even a smile. Just a tad.

It's insane how much more approachable you seem to other people! So don't do it all the time because people are bloody awful, and keep it for meeting acquaintances or bosses or something.

I guess it gets rid of that whole "wow this person probably has a stick, a pringle, and fine china up their ass--and if I talk to them about it they'll probably just bite my head off and shove me up there too." appearance us super stoic-rationals can give off unintentionally.

Ba-da-bing!

[Infrared]

Oh sure, all the time. I could tell of countless examples where I can at least sense that a person is needing more from me emotionally than what I am able to offer. It makes me feel very nervous during the moment, and later in retrospect, I feel guilty for not being able to satisfying their needs.

You want to be there for them, more than anything in the world, because you love them so deeply, but you just don't know how.

It's a very sad thing.

[nadjasix]

I care in an abstract way. As in, "that sucks, that should never happen to anyone in a fair and just world"... That's sort of my version of caring. I get more pissed than sad, though.

I don't know if I'm amazing at emotional maintenance, but I can do it when I have to...

On the other hand, I'd rather slit my wrists than act the way people expect women to act, so ...

males are not nearly as prone to that behavior,

Citation needed.