There's no INTP without Ti and no Ti without knowledge/intelligence.

[Kevinaswell]

Does this forum have a block feature?

I like to keep the retarded in my life I'm exposed to to a minimum.

[Azrael]

"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." - Martin Luther King Jr.

I thought that kind of applied, Tlat.

[Jorge]

Originally Posted by Tlatoani

Esa es la parte importante, mi gringo amigo. Yo vengo a discutir con la persona capaz de sostener una discusión teórica conmigo, y al parecer estos taradetes incivilizados no son capaces de quitarle una sola pluma al gallo. ¿Qué puedo hacer? No es mi problema. Mi único recurso ahora es esperar a que exista alguien aqui que de el ancho para tal tipo de discusiones, porque si ves nadie me ha probado equivocado, simplemente se traban en su proceso idiota de sentirse poca cosa y odiarme por "creerme gran cosa". Si es eso lo que pueden entender de mis argumentos, pues que lástima por su poca inteligencia, solamente prueban lo correcto que está mi punto principal: No hay INTPs sin Ti y no hay Ti sin inteligencia y conocimiento.

PD. Espero que te haya sido leve la paliza en el tema de los vegetarianos, te recomiendo un aguacatito vegetariano para que se te pase el coraje y la muina eh ;)

You don't have the credentials to decide if he's an INTP or not if you're still using dichotomy theory to establish his type. Seriously, there's more to it than the stupid dichotomies.



Obviously something that an INTP would say. So sad Kevin-INFP.



Did you read my posts? are you familiar with forum debates? You have to understand first what I said and then prove me wrong, just coming here and saying that I'm wrong is not enough in a respectable debate. So here comes again the challenge, quote me in the parts I'm wrong and tell me why I'm wrong, ok?



Same for you. Keep trying.

Paliza? Como te dije, me diste hueva. Tus argumentos no fueron mas que escuchar lo mismo pero con diferentes palabras... algo muy INTJ ;). Y la gente ha dado buenos argumentos, pero el hecho de que decidas leer lo que quieras, y simplemente decir "estas equivocado" a lo que no te parezca no me convence. Sabes? Ni siquiera voy a perder mas tiempo contigo empezando en este....

Does this forum have a block feature?

I like to keep the retarded in my life I'm exposed to to a minimum.

+1. I was actually excited there was another Mexican here, and he was an INTP.

[Verdant Hollow]

Originally Posted by Tlatoani

Same for you. Keep trying.

I read this a few times. Then I read by post again. And then I read this again.

I don't know what exactly is the "same for me", or what I should keep doing. Should I keep hating dumb ENTPs? I'm unsure what you're saying.

Also, should I take your lack of argumentation as a sign of agreement? If not, what do you disagree with me on?

[Tlatoani]

Originally Posted by Kevinaswell

Does this forum have a block feature?

I like to keep the retarded in my life I'm exposed to to a minimum.

Yup yup, I don't want to look at the brain of a woman trapped in a men's body as long as I'm here, WTB that block feature.

Originally Posted by Azrael

"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." - Martin Luther King Jr.

I thought that kind of applied, Tlat.

"Dogs are barking, means I'm moving forward" -Don Quijote de la Mancha (Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra)

Yeah, this applies better Azrael.

Originally Posted by Jorge

Paliza? Como te dije, me diste hueva. Tus argumentos no fueron mas que escuchar lo mismo pero con diferentes palabras... algo muy INTJ ;). Y la gente ha dado buenos argumentos, pero el hecho de que decidas leer lo que quieras, y simplemente decir "estas equivocado" a lo que no te parezca no me convence. Sabes? Ni siquiera voy a perder mas tiempo contigo empezando en este....

En realidad lo de la hueva fue en ótro tema eh, para que te acuerdes, en el tema de los vegetarianos ha sido ciencia contra ciencia, te vi medio decaido por la paliza en tu último mensaje, supongo que no habrá uno siguiente a falta de argumentos ¿no? A eso yo llamo una buena paliza, y ya sabes, aguacatito para la muina eh

+1. I was actually excited there was another Mexican here, and he was an INTP.

The Mexican that was born in Texas, lol, how old are you to be a Mexican born in Texas, 173+ years old?

I was quite excited too, see I don't hate you or anything, that emotions don't come naturally to me, specially on the interwebz.

Will you accept me a friend request? What's with agreeing to disagree? We still can be friends
Sabes que todavía te estimo, mi George

Originally Posted by tdmg

I read this a few times. Then I read by post again. And then I read this again.

I don't know what exactly is the "same for me", or what I should keep doing. Should I keep hating dumb ENTPs? I'm unsure what you're saying.

Also, should I take your lack of argumentation as a sign of agreement? If not, what do you disagree with me on?

I mean this:

Did you read my posts? are you familiar with forum debates? You have to understand first what I said and then prove me wrong, just coming here and saying that I'm wrong is not enough in a respectable debate. So here comes again the challenge, quote me in the parts I'm wrong and tell me why I'm wrong, ok?

[Verdant Hollow]

Originally Posted by Tlatoani

I mean this:

Did you read my posts? are you familiar with forum debates? You have to understand first what I said and then prove me wrong, just coming here and saying that I'm wrong is not enough in a respectable debate. So here comes again the challenge, quote me in the parts I'm wrong and tell me why I'm wrong, ok?

Okay, I'll be more particular

I agree with this statement of yours:

But when a self proclaimed INTP is too stupid(lacking the intelligence to apply logic) or too ignorant (not having the means to compare the new information with previous known knowledge) to analyze something properly, then it's as if he didn't have Ti in the first place.

I agree that it's useless. But I still think they have Ti, just as I showed with very young INTPs. Their Ti just doesn't function well.

I do not agree with this:

That's why Intelligence and Knowledge is a requirement for INTPs and no INTP can exist without it.

I agree that a dumb INTP is pretty hopeless, and they would probably die if left on their own, as would any type. However, I do not see how a properly function Ti is necessary for them to be an INTP, I only see how it's necessary for them to survive on their own as an INTP.

I do not see that survival-identity link. Ti is a decision making function, and knowledge is necessary for it to work well, but it will try to do its job no matter how dumb the Ti's host is The host will die without knowledge, true. But if they were to be kept alive by the system, would they not be INTP? They couldn't be INFP, because they never use Fi, they only use Ti, albeit poorly.

Also, I believe your argument to be one saying that it is necessary for an INTP to be competent at Ti in order to be an INTP. I argued that competency was not required. I will requote what I said, for your convenience

An ISFP who reads their Fi wrong all the time doesn't mean they aren't an ISFP, it just makes them incompetent If I met an INTJ that was so dim that even my Ni was more accurate than his, would that mean he wasn't an INTJ?

And the same goes for INTP. This is evident in INTP kids, who are trying to use Ti but just aren't mature or smart enough yet to use it correctly. They flounder around in pseudo-logic and poorly formed arguments. They are still INTP though. Even if they never grow up to be smart, they're still INTP.

The first paragraph is just posturing on my part. The second part is the argument:

1. If there is an INTP kid who doesn't have a competent Ti function, then having a competent Ti function is not a requirement for being INTP.
2. There is an INTP kid who doesn't have a competent Ti function.
3. Having a competent Ti function is not a requirement for being INTP.

You might say that these kids aren't really INTP by asserting your conclusion that a good Ti is necessary. This is assuming your conclusion though, and is poor argumentation.

You might also say that what holds for children doesn't hold for adults. This I might agree with.

I would give you an example of a dumb INTP that I know, but you could then just challenge the accuracy of his testing.

I'm wondering Tlatoani, can you provide us with a falsifiable situation for your theory? You can throw out all the empirical examples we give you, and you can always throw out our theory by assuming your conclusion. I might very well be mistaken about this though, so if you could set conditions for its falsifiability, that would be awesome

[Azrael]

Originally Posted by Tlatoani

"Dogs are barking, means I'm moving forward" -Don Quijote de la Mancha (Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra)

Yeah, this applies better Azrael.

"The wise person questions himself; the fool others." - Henri Arnold

The Bandwagon thing may be a logical fallacy, but you may want to take a closer look at your argument when no one agrees with you.

[thewindlistens]

Originally Posted by Tlatoani

Did you read my posts? are you familiar with forum debates? You have to understand first what I said and then prove me wrong, just coming here and saying that I'm wrong is not enough in a respectable debate. So here comes again the challenge, quote me in the parts I'm wrong and tell me why I'm wrong, ok?

No, I can do whatever the hell I want. But since you insist, though I doubt you'll understand it any better - as you've already displayed remarkable close-mindedness. I'll give it another, longer go.

Originally Posted by Tlatoani

But when a self proclaimed INTP is too stupid(lacking the intelligence to apply logic) or too ignorant (not having the means to compare the new information with previous known knowledge) to analyze something properly, then it's as if he didn't have Ti in the first place.

He may receive the information and accept it without doubting it for a second eliminating the purpose of Ti as a filter.

Ti is a process which has nothing to do with the nature of what it is processing. What you have declared as the "purpose" of Ti is completely irrelevant. Having faulty data is not as if an INTP didn't have Ti in the first place. Ti simply works with what it has, if it has good data it gives good Ti based results, if it has bad data it gives bad Ti based results. They are all examples of Ti working perfectly. The fault for the bad results lies somewhere else.

Here's a few analogies to what you're trying to push:

"Fire is only fire if it burns wood. This burning plastic isn't on fire because fire only burns wood."
"Scent is only scent if it smells nice. The stinking landfill over there doesn't have a scent because it doesn't smell nice."
"Driving a car is only driving a car if you're driving by the rules. Therefore, if you're speeding, you're not driving a car."
"Water can only be heated with natural gas, if you heated it with electrical power, this (boiling) water is in fact cold."

Note that all of these statements are internally logically consistent but they are all wrong if you subject them to the real world. Much like a faulty closed system an INTP builds in his own mind - the Ti that reached them works perfectly, they are logically correct.

Ti doesn't gather information. It only processes. Your line of thinking is akin to this: "I like to burn incense, It smells nice. But this time, this (rotten) incense stinks! What's wrong with the fire!?"

Originally Posted by Tlatoani

Then it doesn't matter if someone has the tendency to analyze everything, if there's no intelligence and knowledge, Ti doesn't work.

That's why Intelligence and Knowledge is a requirement for INTPs and no INTP can exist without it.

This is just... wrong. No type, not INTP or any other, has anything to do with how effective it is. Every function just works independently of any notion of being right, wrong, effective or ineffective etc. It just sits there and does its own thing.

See? I said the same things I said in the first place. And I even addad quotes! Maybe you can get someone to provide pictures too if you're persistent enough.

[Jorge]

Originally Posted by tdmg

Jorge, could you please post in English. I can use Google Translate, but I don't trust its accuracy... sorry

Originally Posted by tlatoani

Put it in my black hole

Originally Posted by Jorge

Ok

That was pretty much the gist of it









Just kidding, sorry for posting in spanish, I guess it's easier for me to make an argument.

Originally Posted by Tlatoani

(En realidad lo de la hueva fue en ótro tema eh, para que te acuerdes, en el tema de los vegetarianos ha sido ciencia contra ciencia, te vi medio decaido por la paliza en tu último mensaje, supongo que no habrá uno siguiente a falta de argumentos ¿no? A eso yo llamo una buena paliza, y ya sabes, aguacatito para la muina eh )

As far as me boring you out, that was in another subject, remember that, in the vegetarians thread it has been science vs science, I saw you a bit discouraged because of how I kicked your ass in the last message, I suppose there is not another one for lack of arguments, huh? That's what a I call a good kick in the ass


(Sabes que todavía te estimo, mi George ) You know I still appreciate you my george

Regarding you boring me out, it was to the whole overall being of you, not only your argument. But I will tell you something.... I know that what you are doing is very INTP. I've got a big feeling that many of the things that you've argumented, you don't believe in them 100%, and you are just discussing for the sake of it. As I've read about our personality, I know we enjoy debating to find the truth, even if this means to hop in the other side of the fence, and find more arguments. We know where our argument is wrong (probably because we are still not sure how to counterargue that fact), and we want to see how people can fight it back.


Hehe, I know this becaause I've done this, but in real life. I used to be more active in dicussion boards over the web when I used to be a teenager... and after a while, I didn't feel any satisfaction to prove a point to a bunch of people that honestly, haven't proven anything worthy of themselves. Winning a discussion over the web is, for me, like beating the fuck out of some random person with a club in the streets. Did you win? Yeah.... did it meant anything? Not really. It's my opinion regarding the internet... yeah, there are rational opinions, and I like being involvedin them... but not over the web, not anymore.

And you can see what I said about me being a mexican in the intro post. I couldn't care less if you don't consider me one regarding some bureaucratic law.

And I don't hate you . Or dislike you or bleh. I just know who is worth an argument, and who is not. I have too many friends twhich I annoy the hell out of when I don't stop arguing, or tell them they are wrong, or trying to prove a point.... and I do understand how obnoxious that can be. I learned when arguing is worth it, and when do I argue for the hell of it (is not that I've stopped doing it, I still love to do it). I didn't involve feelings, I am simply backing down from a battle that I don't feel like winning, and will consume time.

Send me the friend request, or not, as you wish. I'm a huge slut and I accept eeveryone anyway.






That was pretty much it, word per word.

I really don't care for arguing with him anymore. And if he counts those as "wins" then bleh. There's a picture about internet wins = certain olympics, but I don't want to post it ^_^

[Sybyll]

Originally Posted by Tlatoani

As I see it Ti is a filter for the information we receive, Ti takes the idea or information and analyzes it with skepticism comparing it with what we already know is truth so that we see if the new information fits the framework or not, it also analyzes it with pure logic, finding if the new idea/information contradicts itself or contradicts another axiom of logic.

But when a self proclaimed INTP is too stupid(lacking the intelligence to apply logic) or too ignorant (not having the means to compare the new information with previous known knowledge) to analyze something properly, then it's as if he didn't have Ti in the first place.

He may receive the information and accept it without doubting it for a second eliminating the purpose of Ti as a filter.

Then it doesn't matter if someone has the tendency to analyze everything, if there's no intelligence and knowledge, Ti doesn't work.

That's why Intelligence and Knowledge is a requirement for INTPs and no INTP can exist without it.

Okay, I can agree that knowledge (information) is required to use Introverted Thinking. But I can't see any realistic situation in life where one would have no information. You always know something, whatever that is, however true that is. And Ti analyzes it, however little info you got). So it's sort of irrelevant however I look at it.

I don't think intelligence has anything to do with it, however. In fact I'm sure. Although us INTPs love to think we're smarter than everyone else... Most of us aren't (see what I did there ?). Yes, perhaps the dumb INTP would accept false information as true, but they would still use it to analyze other information. The conclusion would be wrong, of course, since they're working with false info (kind of like what you're doing now. Not that I'm calling you stupid, I think you've just built yourself your own little world of internally consistent logic), but they wouldn't be unable to use Ti because they had low intelligence.

And I see I've pretty much just repeated what thewindlistens said, but I've been following this discussion, and I couldn't resist voicing my opinion.

Originally Posted by Kevinaswell

Does this forum have a block feature?

I like to keep the retarded in my life I'm exposed to to a minimum.

It does (I just checked). Go to the profile of the user and click the "user lists" menu, then "add to ignore list"