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This is a discussion on Universe...and stuff... within the INTP Forum - The Thinkers forums, part of the NT's Temperament Forum- The Intellects category; Originally Posted by DemonD Isn't the reason we can't really measure anything before big bang, just that there isn't anything ...

  1. #11
    INTP - The Thinkers

    Quote Originally Posted by DemonD View Post
    Isn't the reason we can't really measure anything before big bang, just that there isn't anything to measure with? Just because we can't measure the time doesn't mean it wasn't there. Unless your definition of time is something complex, like the motion of an atom, which leads to no atoms = no time. But that's not how I see it. I realize that my belief of time before the big bang goes against the more common no time before big bang theory.

    As for the mind, my point was that it could be argued that MY mind isn't big enough. Not that minds can't be big enough.
    If that's the case, then thing that you're trying to measure isn't time. As of right now using our instruments we can understand what time is and we can measure it. If you're saying that all of a sudden we can't measure the time that is "before" the big bang, that doesn't make too much sense to me. It isn't time that were measuring then, it's something unknown to us as of right now. If it was time we'd be able to measure it due to the nature of this universe.

    I can't even properly explain this because were going into metaphysical territory which is nonsense. In this universe there is time and space. Because of time and space the universe operates based on the law of cause and effect. Every action has a reaction etc. We know that the big bang created time and space, otherwise.......we wouldn't be able to record the universe as starting 14 billion years ago. It would mean that wherever there "is" time, it has to be within this universe. And is therefore measurable and applicable to our understanding.

    I agree with what the above person stated read up on physics and quantum mechanics there's a lot of questions and shit to be discovered and who knows who'll make the next massive leap of understanding.
    antahon and DemonD thanked this post.

  2. #12
    INTP - The Thinkers

    Yes, I see that we do have different definition of time, thusly we're not really talking about the same thing. I do see your point now though.

  3. #13
    INTP - The Thinkers

    About time and the non-existence of it.

    From what I've gathered, if something is in a state of equilibrium, which means that absolutely nothing happens, then time does not exist there. There is no meaning of time if time isn't measurable. That's what I think about time, not necessarily speaking about the singularity, as it is really impossible to know what went on pre-bang.

    Ok I'll try to give an example. Imagine a closed system that consists of a pot of water with ice cubes in it. While the ice is melting there's energy going around, and since there's something going around time is measurable. When the ice melts completely though, and the system reaches maximum entropy, there is no heat exchange, nothing going on, the system is at thermal equilibrium, then there is no possible way to measure time within that closed system. So time does not exist for that pot of water. Am I right?

    The big bang theory claims that there was no time pre-bang. There are many other theories though that suggest that time existed before the big bang. Who knows.

    This topic is really interesting. Thanks @DemonD
    Why are we only three people here talking?
    CowboyBarry, Mr. Meepers and DemonD thanked this post.

  4. #14
    Unknown Personality


    Arguing about quantum mechanics without math is like dancing about architecture. - Elvis Costello
    CowboyBarry and Mr. Meepers thanked this post.

  5. #15
    INTP - The Thinkers

    Quote Originally Posted by nadjasix View Post
    Arguing about quantum mechanics without math is like dancing about architecture. - Elvis Costello
    I agree with this. We're on the cosmology spectrum though. Where you can say all kinds of shit.
    Yeah, I don't think those kinds of conversations are ever accurate due to our lack of scientific knowledge, but hey they're thought provoking and one can learn a couple of things. We're not gonna argue why the electron is 50-50 here or there. Those matters indeed need math. But cosmology-wise a conversation can be held for a while without turning into science blasphemy.
    nadjasix thanked this post.

  6. #16
    Unknown Personality


    Quote Originally Posted by antahon View Post
    I agree with this. We're on the cosmology spectrum though. Where you can say all kinds of shit.
    Yeah, I don't think those kinds of conversations are ever accurate due to our lack of scientific knowledge, but hey they're thought provoking and one can learn a couple of things. We're not gonna argue why the electron is 50-50 here or there. Those matters indeed need math. But cosmology-wise a conversation can be held for a while without turning into science blasphemy.
    I just want them to find a boson already.

  7. #17
    INTP - The Thinkers


    Your perception of time is interesting. I applaud you for having the testicular fortitude to attempt at rationalizing your thoughts, especially amongst peers who are very critical of the thought process. This makes me wonder tho if you understand how time works. Insofar as I am aware, time is a human conception, or perception I should say, as time is relative. That being said, whos to say you are wrong? I mean, so long as a human is there to observe it, time would in fact, always exist.. Before the big bang, best we understand, the universe was quite the opposite of what we have today, a singularity. Unfortunately, the human brain is not capable of rationale when it comes to singularities, and while quantum physics attempts to answer this, the math we are using is of our dimension, and therefor is inadequate in solving the answer to things beyond our comprehension. But even that logic goes against my personal way of thinking, as nothing is impossible imo.. I would say before the big bang, or whatever it is about singularities we would want to know, would require an insight very different from what we know today, perhaps this is where "god" lives.. and what better a place for a deity to hide, well out of the possibility for us to even understand, let alone travel there.. The closest singularity to explore is in our own galaxy, sadly, no human can as of yet, live long enough to reach it..

    Its funny, a great deal of stars you see every night arent even there, as they died along time ago, yet the light from these stars you are viewing has taken lightyears to reach us, and therefore creates the perception that they are in fact there... Time is a fickle thing..
    DemonD thanked this post.

  8. #18
    INTP - The Thinkers

    Time doesn't exist per-say. The illusion of time exists because there is an order to when stimulus is encoded into our brain; if nothing was conscious, everything would happen instantaneously, thus we can't even be sure that the universe exists unless one is outside of it, but then that would mean it's no longer a closed system. Ha, maybe we're just a wave-function waiting to be collapsed.


    Quote Originally Posted by IKilledVoltron View Post
    On the quantum level electrons and etc. appear out of nothing and what's more, this phenomenon doesn't break a single law of quantum physics and doesn't break a single law of nature.
    This isn't true. I'm assuming you're referring to virtual particles. Virtual particles aren't particles at all, but are a tool used to describe the disturbances that other particles have on the electromagnetic and electron fields. Virtual Particles: What are they? | Of Particular Significance
    antahon thanked this post.

  9. #19
    INTP - The Thinkers

    Quote Originally Posted by 2fast4u2 View Post
    I applaud you for having the testicular fortitude to attempt at rationalizing your thoughts, especially amongst peers who are very critical of the thought process.
    This might be the best compliment I've ever gotten.

    Regarding my view of time; I see time as an abstract linear construct that may not be altered, and as such has been around forever.

    ...this is getting complicated for me...

    Quote Originally Posted by antahon View Post
    About time and the non-existence of it.

    From what I've gathered, if something is in a state of equilibrium, which means that absolutely nothing happens, then time does not exist there. There is no meaning of time if time isn't measurable. That's what I think about time, not necessarily speaking about the singularity, as it is really impossible to know what went on pre-bang.

    Ok I'll try to give an example. Imagine a closed system that consists of a pot of water with ice cubes in it. While the ice is melting there's energy going around, and since there's something going around time is measurable. When the ice melts completely though, and the system reaches maximum entropy, there is no heat exchange, nothing going on, the system is at thermal equilibrium, then there is no possible way to measure time within that closed system. So time does not exist for that pot of water. Am I right?

    The big bang theory claims that there was no time pre-bang. There are many other theories though that suggest that time existed before the big bang. Who knows.

    This topic is really interesting. Thanks @DemonD
    Why are we only three people here talking?
    Does a lack of relevance remove the existence? I will agree that any time prior to TBB is probably quite irrelevant from a scientific perspective, because as you say, nothing happened(probably).

    I get the impression that many of you go by "if we can't measure it, it probably didn't exist", is that right?

    Does that mean that if I have a measuring tape that is 3m long, I can say that there is nothing with dimensions longer than 3m, because it is clearly unmeasurable for me? Yes, it is a silly simplification, but hopefully you get my point.

  10. #20
    INTP - The Thinkers

    Quote Originally Posted by nadjasix View Post
    Arguing about quantum mechanics without math is like dancing about architecture. - Elvis Costello
    But math is haaaaaard...
    nadjasix and DemonD thanked this post.


 
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