[Neurasthenia]

I know. Sometimes you just know that something is off. And alot of times you really don't know how. And your face turns a little sour while you try to puzzle it out and people think that you are being negative or stubbern or judgemental because you are not completely on the bandwagon. I just can't accept things unless all the pieces go smoothly together. My dad , an infj, gets really ticked at me when I question his logic.

Haha my dad is INFJ also, and he gets mad when I question his logic. It is nothing personal. It is about the ideas, not the person. Though, the two are often hard to separate. I really see things more in terms of what the person is saying/thinking/expressing. I am not thinking about their worth as a person or anything like that.

I'm not sure how to explain it.



Anyway, yeah, it is about the cohesiveness of ideas.

[Val1991]

Haha my dad is INFJ also, and he gets mad when I question his logic. It is nothing personal. It is about the ideas, not the person. Though, the two are often hard to separate. I really see things more in terms of what the person is saying/thinking/expressing. I am not thinking about their worth as a person or anything like that.

I'm not sure how to explain it.

Anyway, yeah, it is about the cohesiveness of ideas.

Ya me and my dad really tend to rub each other the wrong way. He's narrow minded even for an infj, and if I question him in the least he starts to lose his temper and thinks me less intelligent for not seeing eye to eye with his perfect logic. I avoid any conversational debate with him because he cannot keep a cool head or be inquisitive in the least. He cuts me off and talks down at me like he's trying to enlighten my naive childish mind and when I still don't sit well the logic then tells me that "I'm just not there yet". Like I said, I love him to peices, but our conversations stay very superficial and "small-talkish" because he doesn't let me express my thoughts or opinions with being negative or judgemental. I don't consider us to be very close.

[Neurasthenia]

Ya me and my dad really tend to rub each other the wrong way. He's narrow minded even for an infj, and if I question him in the least he starts to lose his temper and thinks me less intelligent for not seeing eye to eye with his perfect logic. I avoid any conversational debate with him because he cannot keep a cool head or be inquisitive in the least. He cuts me off and talks down at me like he's trying to enlighten my naive childish mind and when I still don't sit well the logic then tells me that "I'm just not there yet". Like I said, I love him to peices, but our conversations stay very superficial and "small-talkish" because he doesn't let me express my thoughts or opinions with being negative or judgemental. I don't consider us to be very close.

I think this might be related to Ni. I have many INxJ friends, and I love them all to death, but their views are usually unyielding. I can have all sorts of evidence to the contrary of something, but if they have an idea they'll stick to it.

An INTJ friend of mine has become pretty good about hearing people out and giving their view full consideration. But from what I've noticed Ni dominance often = super confident world view. Please, correct me if I'm wrong. Maybe that is because their perception really is more in line with truth, but oftentimes my logic tells me otherwise.

Anyway, what you describe definitely reminds me of my INFJ dad's stubbornness.

Granted, with the right language I have got him to consider my ideas in the last couple years more fairly. I'll say "Okay, now, just hear me out. Just listen to the idea." He does now actually sit and listen to me. In earlier years, if it didn't make sense immediately, he could be a bit harsh about his disagreement.

[Val1991]

I think this might be related to Ni. I have many INxJ friends, and I love them all to death, but their views are usually unyielding. I can have all sorts of evidence to the contrary of something, but if they have an idea they'll stick to it.

An INTJ friend of mine has become pretty good about hearing people out and giving their view full consideration. But from what I've noticed Ni dominance often = super confident world view. Please, correct me if I'm wrong. Maybe that is because their perception really is more in line with truth, but oftentimes my logic tells me otherwise.

Anyway, what you describe definitely reminds me of my INFJ dad's stubbornness.

Granted, with the right language I have got him to consider my ideas in the last couple years more fairly. I'll say "Okay, now, just hear me out. Just listen to the idea." He does now actually sit and listen to me. In earlier years, if it didn't make sense immediately, he could be a bit harsh about his disagreement.

Ya, I agree. sometimes it just stinks though, and as an intp, I have a hard time with it. It drains my confidence when I feel like my dad thinks I'm stupid or incapable of understanding, even though I understand what he's saying, it just doesn't sit well with my Ti. It can be a little insuting.

[Val1991]

lol, I just noticed how off topic we were... I don't know why it's so amusing at the moment...I think I need to go to bed...

[Unus]

Your minds are an amazing clock work of intricate ideas and possibilities. And common? Oh no, not common at all. They flow to the music of theory and grind with the everyday assumptions. You are forever changing, forever learning, forever calculating, forever seeking and thirsting for your seductive and fickle knowledge. You are precise in your uncertainty. You are factual and hard in the most gentle way. You are as true as you can possibly be in your current step of development. To those on the outside, you may be serious and unfeeling. But let me get you alone and see. You will be silly, so beautiful and silly. You will be intense and strikingly passionate about all that you hold high. The few people that have somehow gained access into your world is an up most priority, but you are undervalued in the realms of emotion. Yet you are so very emotional in all the right ways. Your heart holds few, but the love inside is endless. You are one of the best. For no one can feel quite like you, because no one can feel quit so logically. Thank you for existing.

May I put this on a t-shirt?

One of the predominant feelings I bear is that of being misunderstood, and I have so much I want to share...

We don't pander to false illusions but people feel most comfortable doing just that because they know where they are then. In a conversation with us, they are completely off-balance...like they've wandered onto the unlevel playing field when, indeed, the exact opposite is true.

[Iamtp]

May I put this on a t-shirt?

It would probably read "Your minds are an amazing clo"

[Bumblyjack]

It would probably read "Your minds are an amazing clo"

then continue it on the back with "ck work of intricate ideas and poss"

[nadjasix]

I think this might be related to Ni. I have many INxJ friends, and I love them all to death, but their views are usually unyielding. I can have all sorts of evidence to the contrary of something, but if they have an idea they'll stick to it.

An INTJ friend of mine has become pretty good about hearing people out and giving their view full consideration. But from what I've noticed Ni dominance often = super confident world view. Please, correct me if I'm wrong. Maybe that is because their perception really is more in line with truth, but oftentimes my logic tells me otherwise.

Anyway, what you describe definitely reminds me of my INFJ dad's stubbornness.

Granted, with the right language I have got him to consider my ideas in the last couple years more fairly. I'll say "Okay, now, just hear me out. Just listen to the idea." He does now actually sit and listen to me. In earlier years, if it didn't make sense immediately, he could be a bit harsh about his disagreement.

The problem with INTPs is that they think their individual "logic" is going to reveal the truth. It won't because it can't. You need independent confirmation and external validity to get anywhere near the "truth". Again, it goes back to making a "logical" versus a "sound" argument. There's an important difference.

Ne is cool, but it's not a truth machine. No cognitive function is. Science is the closest thing we have to a truth machine, and by science I mean math and physics. Value judgments are important as well if we want to live good lives, of course. But if you want to talk about objective, logical truths, you can't just make them up using what's in your own head. Theories are good, experimental confirmation of theories is necessary if you want your theories to mean anything on the ground.

[Neurasthenia]

The problem with INTPs is that they think their individual "logic" is going to reveal the truth. It won't because it can't. You need independent confirmation and external validity to get anywhere near the "truth". Again, it goes back to making a "logical" versus a "sound" argument. There's an important difference.

Ne is cool, but it's not a truth machine. No cognitive function is. Science is the closest thing we have to a truth machine, and by science I mean math and physics. Value judgments are important as well if we want to live good lives, of course. But if you want to talk about objective, logical truths, you can't just make them up using what's in your own head. Theories are good, experimental confirmation of theories is necessary if you want your theories to mean anything on the ground.

I was hoping it'd be more obvious but I was questioning the validity of my "logical compass". I was trying to differentiate the "language of logic" from reality. I wasn't sure how to say it, but there is much to reality that evades logical deductions and inferences.

I agree with you.