[alohalana]

In that way, my knowledge seeking still has an application, but doesn't necessarily have a "tangible" application.



Then again, I might be a closet INTP :)

You are defending your need to know all things. Sounds INTPish to me :P My sister is an INTJ. Her biggest qualm with me is my need to restate all known facts before a theoretical argument "I remember, skip to the new stuff ><." My need to know more than what is necessary for a working pattern also is a source of frustration. We use a metaphor. INTP knowledge is like a tree. Prune here, new shoot there. The ideas are constantly updated and growing. INTJ knowledge is like a cemented brick wall. It's well-built and it has a function. However, it takes a knowledge-boulder of massive weight and enormous velocity crashing through it to rearrange those bricks. Or the roots of a gnarly tree, hah!

[elenien]

You are defending your need to know all things. Sounds INTPish to me :P

Oh trust me... I'm very much an INTJ, especially with arguments. I can defend my need to know all things, as I know exactly why I need to know them, and I hate being told things I already know :)

Regarding your metaphor... INTJs usually (though not always) are very stubborn about things they have opinions on because they have put a lot of time into forming those opinions or gaining that knowledge. They have, for the most part, researched to the most obscure detail, to the point where new information (opinion changing information) is actually very rare (or so we love to think).

This is where the "specialization" difference between INTJs and INTPs comes in, I think. An INTJ will stick to something until they have a full grasp of it, while an INTP (correct me if I'm wrong) will stick with it until they have a working opinion/knowledge and then get sidetracked by something else for awhile.

It's my theory that this is why INTJs, combined with a dislike of repetition, tend to come off as inflexible jerks in an argument about something they care about :)

On the other hand, INTJs (though perhaps this is NTs in general) will be much more vague and insecure about things they don't know about. I personally hate that feeling, which is probably my #1 reason for wanting to know all things :)

[bethdeth]

Skimming through this thread, this seems like the appropriate place to ask this question. Are there any INTJ out there that are lazy? Let's look at cleaning for example. Let say you buy a cup of coffee at Starbucks and you keep reusing the plastic cup until you can no longer use it anymore. You're doing this because it saves you the time of having to wash a cup, you can just make new coffee or whatever drink right away, and you can just throw that cup away when you're done.

I call it recycling, and re-using instead of laziness. Aside from that I'm as lazy as hell when it comes down to it. I'll think of things I have to do before I get out of bed and figure the best way to do them all at once so I can get back to sitting down and daydreaming again. My whole life is geared to how much I have to do just to sit and daydream.

[downsowf]

............................

[hydrogen]

Hmm. This thread makes me wonder if I'm INTP and not INTJ... Interesting. I am very borderline in the tests...

Ah well they're both cool.

[alohalana]

Oh trust me... I'm very much an INTJ, especially with arguments. I can defend my need to know all things, as I know exactly why I need to know them, and I hate being told things I already know :)

Regarding your metaphor... INTJs usually (though not always) are very stubborn about things they have opinions on because they have put a lot of time into forming those opinions or gaining that knowledge. They have, for the most part, researched to the most obscure detail, to the point where new information (opinion changing information) is actually very rare (or so we love to think).

This is where the "specialization" difference between INTJs and INTPs comes in, I think. An INTJ will stick to something until they have a full grasp of it, while an INTP (correct me if I'm wrong) will stick with it until they have a working opinion/knowledge and then get sidetracked by something else for awhile.

I wasn't trying to negatively characterize INTJs at all and I hope it didn't come off that way.

I very much agree that the reason INTJs stick to their opinions is that they generally are much better-informed than everyone else. This is why INTJ-INTP interactions are interesting to me. Really, the only people who make me second-guess my logic are INTJs, or an ENTJ here or there. I think that the same might be said of INTJs and ENTJs in regards to INTPs. We can put up a good argument and wow do we gather a lot of data. Most everything I say is only a couple clicks away from a source that supports my opinion.

My understanding of INTJ is that they are concerned with understanding an idea to a practical end...whether that practical end is practical in a symbolic sense complicates this assertion. Generally, when I try to "win" an argument with an INTJ I bring up tons of different ideas that they may not have considered. Sometimes I land on a good point and stick with it. However, the INTJ is packing one or two AMAZING facts that often have the capacity to shut down any other argument. So after hours of me going "What if this, what if that?" with an INTJ often leads to me being debunked, very well, by the solid points that the INTJ already has established. It irks me to be out-analyzed, but then I'm adding to my tree so I don't mind. Your logic can very quickly and shamelessly become mine, if I find it up to snuff.

I think our understanding of INTJs and INTPs specialization is opposite. An INTJ is characterized as gathering data until a feasible pattern is generated. They back it up with good research. If it makes sense and it works, the job is then done. An INTP gathers and gathers and talking is just another form of information-gathering. INTPs are characterized as the ones that exhaust every single possibility and research obsessively, to the extent that it is impracticable, esoteric. Another metaphor: INTJ logic is like applied research and INTP logic is like basic research.

In conclusion, it seems the best an INTP can do is shift the perception or interpretation of the truth that the INTJ is already well aware of...both fundamentally agree on the truth. The argument then is over shades and hues of perception, which in my experience is when an INTJ mentally checks out of the conversation, because there is no real benefit to further analysis because the best conclusions have already been made. Or maybe just because I'm stubborn AND easily amused. Hard to tell.

[Portal]

Hmm. This thread makes me wonder if I'm INTP and not INTJ... Interesting. I am very borderline in the tests...

Ah well they're both cool.

Look at the functions because the online tests are crappy. Well I should say the free ones but even you pay for your test you should be skeptical.

[Portal]

I wasn't trying to negatively characterize INTJs at all and I hope it didn't come off that way.

I very much agree that the reason INTJs stick to their opinions is that they generally are much better-informed than everyone else. This is why INTJ-INTP interactions are interesting to me. Really, the only people who make me second-guess my logic are INTJs, or an ENTJ here or there. I think that the same might be said of INTJs and ENTJs in regards to INTPs. We can put up a good argument and wow do we gather a lot of data. Most everything I say is only a couple clicks away from a source that supports my opinion.

My understanding of INTJ is that they are concerned with understanding an idea to a practical end...whether that practical end is practical in a symbolic sense complicates this assertion. Generally, when I try to "win" an argument with an INTJ I bring up tons of different ideas that they may not have considered. Sometimes I land on a good point and stick with it. However, the INTJ is packing one or two AMAZING facts that often have the capacity to shut down any other argument. So after hours of me going "What if this, what if that?" with an INTJ often leads to me being debunked, very well, by the solid points that the INTJ already has established. It irks me to be out-analyzed, but then I'm adding to my tree so I don't mind. Your logic can very quickly and shamelessly become mine, if I find it up to snuff.

I think our understanding of INTJs and INTPs specialization is opposite. An INTJ is characterized as gathering data until a feasible pattern is generated. They back it up with good research. If it makes sense and it works, the job is then done. An INTP gathers and gathers and talking is just another form of information-gathering. INTPs are characterized as the ones that exhaust every single possibility and research obsessively, to the extent that it is impracticable, esoteric. Another metaphor: INTJ logic is like applied research and INTP logic is like basic research.

In conclusion, it seems the best an INTP can do is shift the perception or interpretation of the truth that the INTJ is already well aware of...both fundamentally agree on the truth. The argument then is over shades and hues of perception, which in my experience is when an INTJ mentally checks out of the conversation, because there is no real benefit to further analysis because the best conclusions have already been made. Or maybe just because I'm stubborn AND easily amused. Hard to tell.

Nice reading about Ne vs Ni.

[Portal]

Oh trust me... I'm very much an INTJ, especially with arguments. I can defend my need to know all things, as I know exactly why I need to know them, and I hate being told things I already know :)

Regarding your metaphor... INTJs usually (though not always) are very stubborn about things they have opinions on because they have put a lot of time into forming those opinions or gaining that knowledge. They have, for the most part, researched to the most obscure detail, to the point where new information (opinion changing information) is actually very rare (or so we love to think).

This is where the "specialization" difference between INTJs and INTPs comes in, I think. An INTJ will stick to something until they have a full grasp of it, while an INTP (correct me if I'm wrong) will stick with it until they have a working opinion/knowledge and then get sidetracked by something else for awhile.

It's my theory that this is why INTJs, combined with a dislike of repetition, tend to come off as inflexible jerks in an argument about something they care about :)

On the other hand, INTJs (though perhaps this is NTs in general) will be much more vague and insecure about things they don't know about. I personally hate that feeling, which is probably my #1 reason for wanting to know all things :)

LOL this is true. It's also fun to see an INTJ debate with another INTJ who holds a completely different opinions on the same subject.

[Signify]

INTJs can develop a great plan to accomplish things. INTPs will find its weaknesses and holes and rip it to shreds. Sadly, they are unable to forms their own plans. INTPs are great at logical destruction, however. We often destroy our own plans by accident by seeing its holes.
"I should do this!"
"but what if this happens..."
"Ehh...I won't risk it." *does nothing*

INTPs and INTJs often are a bit abrasive toward one another because they are often considered the top intellectuals. They have their strengths and weaknesses and they make great partners if they don't kill one another.

In chess, the INTJ winner will most likely have had you follow all the steps and had you manipulated so you fell right into checkmate. The INTP would most likely be the one to have you lose all your pieces and you were playing cat and mouse with the king until they caught you (or maybe I just suck at chess). We don't really plan all that far ahead, we are just good at seeing short term weaknesses and exploiting them.