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An INTJ Concedes Defeat in Love and is Willing to Forsake Romance

[INTJ] 
14K views 134 replies 43 participants last post by  Asmodaeus 
#1 ·
I’m a bit puzzled and confused. I just found out the INFP woman I was dating chose an ESTJ suitor over me. I admit I am somewhat frustrated and heartbroken, especially because I made a considerable investment in terms of time and effort. I even went the proverbial extra mile, but success was not achieved. :sad:

However, the big picture tells that this is just the latest defeat in a chain which goes back many years. This is even more perplexing because I’m relatively young (in my late 20s), professionally successful, academically smart, reasonably diplomatic –for INTJ standards–, pretty cosmopolitan, and intellectually curious. If I’m not mistaken, I guess those are desirable traits. Moreover, a woman once told me I’m a handsome man and that, if my personality were different, women would melt for me. However, I cannot just relinquish my INTJ-ness and become an ExTJ, I don’t know if such thing is possible, even if I wanted.

Furthermore, even the most enduring relationships I’ve ever had (with ESFP, ESFJ and ENFP women) eventually have come to an end. I honestly wonder if those relationships weren’t meant to last from the very beginning. Since the latest of them ended a few years ago, I’ve only experienced several one-night stands, which are highly gratifying, but are far from being fulfilling and/or meaningful. All women I’ve dated ever since (ESTP, ENTP, INFP) have either friendzoned me or chosen an alpha male (a.k.a. knight in shining armor) over me. This situation makes me believe INTJ-ness is a blessing and, simultaneously, a curse (pretty much like the mythical “mark of Cain”). Perhaps ignorance is indeed bliss.

On the other hand, failure is difficult to assimilate but, as an ultimate rational pragmatist (knowledgeable about political science, economics, history, finance and even high strategy), I’m reaching the conclusion that it’s utterly foolish to venture into endeavors for which I lack talent –i.e. no competitive advantage to speak of in the realm of romance–. Clever strategists often teach the metaphor that not all waterways are to be navigated; in other words, we cannot excel at every facet of life.

All of the above plus the aforementioned crushing defeat are discouraging. I feel like I should never lift a single finger for the sake of romance again. Perhaps this is the lesson I’m supposed to learn from this painful experience. After all, it’s not rational to invest in fruitless pursuits only because of wishful thinking. The situation I’m describing is like playing a stressful game that cannot be possibly won and whose ambiguous rules are mostly unclear, alien and incomprehensible for me.

Therefore, I’m seriously contemplating the idea of making peace with the possibility of remaining perpetually single. I realize it doesn’t sound pleasant at all but I think maybe it’s the lesser evil. The alternative would be recurrent failure and an increased bitterness (no expectations = no disappointments). Albert Einstein once remarked that the definition of insanity was doing the same thing repeatedly and expecting a different outcome. Attrition has become deeply exhausting and, hence, I’m afraid an “exit strategy” is needed to retire with dignity from the dating scene. This might sound sad or depressing but I fear that, in my case, it’s the wise thing to do under the circumstances.

So, I wonder if some fellow INTJs have reached similar conclusions. I would very much appreciate your thoughts, ideas, suggestions, advice, recommendations, interpretations, explanations and theories. Non-INTJs, please feel free to share your comments as well, if you like. Your insights will be more than welcome.

PS: @CroolUniqorn, @EyesOpen, @jeb, @Lucyyy, @Meltedsorbet, @OrangeAppled, @Zuflex, @Wytch, @pinky_whiz, @StaceofBass; @sweetraglansweater I would really appreciate your input.
 
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#2 ·
Well, since your "wound" is still fresh, I am sure your feelings are just stronger right now about this.
At times, I too have felt that it would be a heck of a lot easier to just write off men and be happier by myself.
I don't think it has anything to with your personality, job, looks or intelligence. You might just be attracted to women who aren't exactly right for you. It seems like you mostly go after Extroverts and that could be part of it (no offense to Es you guys are great). As for the INFP, maybe she just didn't feel as strongly about you as you did for her. It wouldn't be anything against you at all, also I would imagine an ESTJ is going to be a lot more forward about what he wants. Maybe she truly didn't know how strongly you felt about her. The INTJs I know (and I'm like this too so, again, no offense.) aren't the type to pour out their feelings to people and they're not romantic in the traditional sense of the word. I am not big on romance myself so, this is (again) not an insult.
You also seem to mainly go after Feelers, maybe you should try out more fellow Thinkers? As far as dating goes.

"Alpha males" are overrated :tongue: it may seem like it's something all girls want but it's really not. Alpha males are usually a lot more insecure than most people realise.

I would suggest to you that you definitely should take some time away from relationships and just get back to yourself. You sound like you need some "me time" which will give you time to reflect and heal.
Just take it easy for now and hang out with yourself for a bit and do not worry about girls at all.

I know it sounds completely cliche, lame and cheesy but... when you least expect it something great will come along.

Just concentrate on other things like your work, friends, interests, hobbies, etc.

I know that I always feel better after spending time alone and just being with myself.

I'm not sure that helps but I'm sorry about your break-up =/ and how it happened.
 
#7 ·
The most excruciatingly humiliating part is that an average guy (ESTJ) managed to defeat a seasoned analytical strategist/researcher (yours truly) and it’s not the first time something like this takes place concerning my romantic interests. This makes it even more painful. In the professional realm, I’m used to provide clever suggestions meant to outsmart competitors/overcome challenges and that’s why ENxJ often chose me as advisor or second in command.

However, I guess my usual intellectual tools are mostly useless in the realm of romance. And this is very difficult to accept and process.

You also seem to mainly go after Feelers, maybe you should try out more fellow Thinkers? As far as dating goes.
Actually, feelers come after me. I admit I seldom ask anyone out on a date. Maybe I normally lack enough courage to be the pursuer. However, I admit this experience has left me painfully scarred because I tried to be as assertive as I could –by INTJ standards anyway–.

On the other hand, I like fellow thinkers as bosses, mentors, leaders, colleagues, friends, subordinates or coworkers but, for some reason, I’m not inclined to regard them (in general) as potential SOs. Once I dated an ENTP woman and I concluded we weren’t meant to be together.

I know it sounds completely cliche, lame and cheesy but... when you least expect it something great will come along.
Hahaha, yes, this definitely sounds cheesy.

I would suggest to you that you definitely should take some time away from relationships and just get back to yourself. You sound like you need some "me time" which will give you time to reflect and heal.
Just take it easy for now and hang out with yourself for a bit and do not worry about girls at all.

Just concentrate on other things like your work, friends, interests, hobbies, etc.

I know that I always feel better after spending time alone and just being with myself.
This is perhaps a good idea. It’s what I always do under similar circumstances. Besides, as an INTJ, I always invest in sharpening my intellectual and professional skills. The difference is that, on this occasion, maybe the time needed to be all by myself will be way longer…

I'm not sure that helps but I'm sorry about your break-up =/ and how it happened
Thanks, other perspectives are always refreshing. Moreover, I really appreciate your insights and contributions.

PS: Your new avatar is so cool and badass
 
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#3 ·
You should stop approaching relationships and love like they're matches to be won or challenges to be toppled. People are irrational, emotional and ever changing and because of that, you're only setting yourself up for failure if you go into dealings with them thinking you've covered all of the variables.

I think Bruce Lee's thoughts on fighting are surprisingly applicable towards relationships:

 
#5 ·
Damn. Well, I could take this one from several angles and wind up circling the bottom line. There are a couple points to which my attention returns again and again while reading this.

1) Romance isn't rational. Yeaargh, perhaps that's why we're all dunces. :laughing: The alpha males couldn't convince me with all their bravado, and the quieter, more contemplative specimens were intimidated. So how did I end up married? One foolhardy ISTP looked at me and thought, "Yeah, she'll keep things interesting." One person decided I was exactly what they wanted. Not a girly girl, not a meek servile woman without a backbone, not a mess of feels, not a queen bee. Different in all the right ways, and try as he may to explain it, I've never compiled all his reasoning into a calculation, some tangible formula of MBTI types + interests + worldviews + chemistry = us. He knew he wanted me and once we started out, we were set in stone in his mind. We both chose, and so it was. I marvel at the simplicity. Had I given up and said, "There's not a one out there who can see themselves paired with somebody like me," I would have wound up pushing away the one that worked in doubt and overcomplication.

So maybe you don't stop trying. What if you just stopped "calculating" and allowed yourself the opportunity to be caught off guard by an anomaly? Throw yourself into your activities and pursuits, but leave a small window open for unexpected passers-by. It doesn't mean you have to stand at the window craning your neck every which way to snag anything that comes along.

2) Most people want the impression of INTJ traits. Not the real deal. The media glamorizes certain facets of the INT-like personality and leaves out the weaknesses. Weakness doesn't sell. For example, we're all presently (or have been) abysmal at small talk. We're grumpy old party poopers from childhood. (No, really. I sat by myself at birthday parties and watched other kids play with such exuberance thinking, 'I'd love to be home building with my K-Nex.') Some of us are workaholics. Some perfectionists. Some awkward. Some lacking in social prowess. You get the picture. Remember that you have weaknesses and then challenge yourself. What's the point in staying the same? So you can look, talk and act as perfectly INTJ as you have always been? Intuitives keep open minds -- even to what new versions of themselves they might become with pressure, curiosity and the simple will to do it.

Remember this, too. Whether you remain perpetually single or find someone, your relationship status can never amount to your identity. Do make peace with what may or may not come.

You will also change far more than you ever anticipated if you do find that one woman for the long haul. The intimacy and partnership of a commitment mandates that you learn, bend, twist and accommodate. Are you living in such a way that you're demonstrably ready for all that discomfort?
 
#10 ·
1) Romance isn't rational. Yeaargh, perhaps that's why we're all dunces. :laughing:
Agree. This makes it so difficult to understand. I can’t even tell what general principles it’s based on or how it’s supposed to play out, even though I’m familiar with the biochemical processes behind it, hahaha. :kitteh: One fellow INTJs (who also happens to be one of my greatest mentors) once explained that, sociologically speaking and seen from the perspective of the big picture, love was actually little more than the aggrandizement of our survival instincts.

As a result of this lack of understanding, I feel so powerless in the realm of romance. The idea that my usual intellectual tools are useless for these endeavors is beyond intimidating.

So maybe you don't stop trying. What if you just stopped "calculating" and allowed yourself the opportunity to be caught off guard by an anomaly? Throw yourself into your activities and pursuits, but leave a small window open for unexpected passers-by. It doesn't mean you have to stand at the window craning your neck every which way to snag anything that comes along.

For example, we're all presently (or have been) abysmal at small talk. We're grumpy old party poopers from childhood. (No, really. I sat by myself at birthday parties and watched other kids play with such exuberance thinking, 'I'd love to be home building with my K-Nex.') Some of us are workaholics. Some perfectionists. Some awkward. Some lacking in social prowess. You get the picture. Remember that you have weaknesses and then challenge yourself. What's the point in staying the same? So you can look, talk and act as perfectly INTJ as you have always been? Intuitives keep open minds -- even to what new versions of themselves they might become with pressure, curiosity and the simple will to do it.
Thank you, this sounds really wise. I admit that my involvement in my favorite pursuits, interests, hobbies and activities is mostly solitary but my intuition tells me that “window of opportunity” you mentioned is not such a bad idea. Perhaps some openness is indeed needed.

Remember this, too. Whether you remain perpetually single or find someone, your relationship status can never amount to your identity. Do make peace with what may or may not come.

You will also change far more than you ever anticipated if you do find that one woman for the long haul. The intimacy and partnership of a commitment mandates that you learn, bend, twist and accommodate. Are you living in such a way that you're demonstrably ready for all that discomfort?
[/QUOTE]

This sounds like great advice as well. Nevertheless, I’m genuinely afraid my previous romantic failures will make me even more reluctant to engage women as potential SOs. :unsure:
 
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#11 ·
I am sorry--I know she must have meant a lot to you, and that you were investing a lot of effort in trying to understand her.

Dating is my least favorite stage of a relationship.

It's important to be able to honestly discuss values to see if they are compatible, to somewhat get out there and open up, and to basically allow for an opportunity to see if there is the potential, but I think it's a much better investment of energy to focus on developing my own happiness, so that one day I can share that with the right other, and also just developing friendships as an opportunity for getting to know people in a more thorough way than I would on a date.

I don't think being great at dating is the biggest accomplishment, and it doesn't necessarily indicate a person's value as a long term partner. Besides, being in the dating scene is just about as pleasant to me as getting thrown into a lake would be to a cat. And just because a cat is not good at swimming doesn't mean he will make a lousy mouse catcher (though there are many of those too--lazy cats.)

But I do believe that it's much more important to cultivate the skills for long-term relationships, and be careful about choosing a partner who is compatible, than to become good at out-competing those who dominate the dating scene, unless the end goal is to be an expert date.

Still, I do think you are selling yourself short a little when you focus on failure.

You have a lot of desirable qualities, and you also have the romantic experiences you've had to reflect on. You are much wiser about dating, romantic partners, and compatibility now than you were before your first date.

I assume that having that history of failures is actually quite an advantage, since I am sure it will allow you to pick an even better partner and create a better situation in the future. I think that's how it's naturally supposed to work, at least. And you are available now for the right opportunity to come.

So, I agree with CroolUniqorn that the best strategy may be to continue to develop your interests and life, but leave a window open in case you end up meeting, and getting to know someone who seems interesting to you or compatible.

Also, the woman who said that "if only you had a different personality," was wrong. There is no one size fit all personality that will be compatible with everyone, and just because someone's more skilled at starting a relationship or competing with other suitors, does not mean they will be compatible in the long run on deeper levels. Attraction is mysterious and subjective, and people are not all the same, or looking for the same thing in a partner.

But anyway--I am sorry. I know it still hurts to lose possibilities with someone you care about and enjoy being with. What did an INTJ friend say to me that made me feel better when I was sad about romantic loss? "It's their loss!"
 
#16 · (Edited)
Thank you. I appreciate your helpful contribution to this thread. :happy:

I completely agree that dating is very stressful and, if the desired results are not achieved, it can even become draining. Right now, I feel so depleted of energy that I’m seriously considering forsaking romance altogether :unsure:. But before I proceed, I think I need to process and ponder the dispassionate advice provided by others before a final conclusion is eventually reached (as an INTJ, I often need closure, one way or another).

On the other hand, your explanation about failure not necessarily being a bad thing is so counterintuitive that I actually like it. My recent failure(s) clearly make(s) it clear that the current course –in the dangerous realm of romance– needs to be changed and, therefore, the ultimate destination has to be redefined somehow. Hence, I like the strategy put forward by @Wytch, @CroolUniqorn and you. :cool: It sounds like a wise, pragmatic, simple and coolheaded idea (nothing onerous or exhausting). Therefore, it would be smart to consider said suggestion for the decision-making process.

Last but not least, I admit your post made feel slightly better even though I’m still somewhat sad :sad:. Yes, we INTJs do have feelings, even if sometimes we don’t like to admit their existence or acknowledge their implications.
 
#13 ·
I may not be the best at love, but I give you my sympathies and wish you the best of luck getting through these trying times...
 
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#14 ·
I feel for ya. I may reply more after I give this some thought but I'm a little bit emotionally off-kilter recently + I have very little relationship experience, so idk how much help I'll be. I'm just trying to figure shit out in this arena too right now. So..sorry. But I get you.
 
#19 ·
I’m a bit puzzled and confused. I just found out the INFP woman I was dating chose an ESTJ suitor over me. I admit I am somewhat frustrated and heartbroken, especially because I made a considerable investment in terms of time and effort. I even went the proverbial extra mile, but success was not achieved. :sad:

However, the big picture tells that this is just the latest defeat in a chain which goes back many years. This is even more perplexing because I’m relatively young (in my late 20s), professionally successful, academically smart, reasonably diplomatic –for INTJ standards–, pretty cosmopolitan, and intellectually curious. If I’m not mistaken, I guess those are desirable traits. Moreover, a woman once told me I’m a handsome man and that, if my personality were different, women would melt for me. However, I cannot just relinquish my INTJ-ness and become an ExTJ, I don’t know if such thing is possible, even if I wanted.


All of the above plus the aforementioned crushing defeat are discouraging. I feel like I should never lift a single finger for the sake of romance again...

Therefore, I’m seriously contemplating the idea of making peace with the possibility of remaining perpetually single. I realize it doesn’t sound pleasant at all but I think maybe it’s the lesser evil. The alternative would be recurrent failure and an increased bitterness (no expectations = no disappointments). Albert Einstein once remarked that the definition of insanity was doing the same thing repeatedly and expecting a different outcome. Attrition has become deeply exhausting and, hence, I’m afraid an “exit strategy” is needed to retire with dignity from the dating scene. This might sound sad or depressing but I fear that, in my case, it’s the wise thing to do under the circumstances.
I think the effort you put into the pursuit of this woman is a mark of strong character, not defeat. Yes, this one wasn't for you but you pursued her, which was a decisive act deserving of its own merit. And pursuing a woman, trying for her, when done with dignity and perseverance becomes a hallmark of gallant manhood. To abandon hope now merely because you have not been chosen by the wrong woman smacks of laziness and apathy, which is becoming of no man. You are a man. You aren't going to allow your will to be dictated by the whims of the wrong women who happened across your path. If you truly want the one person you are going to fight for her, which means getting up and going out there again. Maybe that doesn't entail 'dating' but that means leaving your heart open and not defaulting to passivity. There is a good woman out there for you @IcyHeart, but she may not come easily. Giving up and tossing the towel in is the story of the fox with overhanging grapes. You do not need to actively 'look' but denying your desire simply because you were thwarted: that's defeatism and it is unbecoming of a hero in search of a heroine.
 
#32 ·
Hello again @sweetraglansweater. I truly appreciate your insights. This perspective is making these circumstances more palatable and your wakeup call not to surrender is also thought-provoking. I like the fact that you don’t need to sugarcoat things and I’m actually more than grateful.

On the other hand, your remark about defeatism being unbecoming of a hero in search for a heroine sounds truly inspiring, even though I haven’t been described as a hero in many years. I honestly think charming princess and princesses are just literary characters who don’t exist IRL but I can see why the ideals they embody are seen as alluring, e.g. I like women who represent the “cute damsel in distress” archetype (for some reason I can’t explain or comprehend).

I guess my perspective has become increasingly jaded and darkened, partly because my usual intellectual analyses are sharply cynical and partly because of my empiric experience when dealing with failure in the realm of romance.

However, you have made a powerful case in order not remove the sails of hope yet.
 
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#20 ·
Icy....I'm sorry to hear that you're hurting right now. :unsure: *hugs!!!!!*

Emotions are fickle beasts. The idea of falling for someone is always risky business. You have to trust them not to hurt you, to leave you, to forget about you.....there are so many variables that could eventually lead to a heartbreak. A person could change their mind about you overnight....and just leave you feeling completely damaged. Frankly, love is for fools. So why do so many people want to set themselves up when it comes to something so wishy washy? Because it's human nature to want a meaningful connection with someone. A companion. Someone who understands you and is willing to do anything for you. It's a special type of bond that makes you feel immeasurably happy. The only thing about this is of course, the risk of getting hurt. You have to remember that everyone has to kiss a few frogs before they meet the one who knocks them off their feet. There WILL be failures because love is something you can't always conquer. However, it most definitely is possible.

You were incredibly brave to put yourself out there for her. I know for INTJs, the romance department can be a bit taxing. It's not rational and it doesn't make sense. The whole idea of love is based on feelings for one another...and feelings are always a shaky foundation for anything. Try not to beat yourself up for what seemed like wasted time and effort because it wasn't. You may not realize it right now, but you've learned something valuable from all of this. It'll take a few days to sink in, but I promise, you'll realize some things you didn't know before. And please....never change yourself. Your INTJness is awesome...and frankly, there are so many great qualities that make up who you are (and INTJs as a whole)! You're intelligent, conscientious, rational, authentic, loyal, honest.....the list goes on and on. Alpha males are overrated.

Lastly, please do not give up on something as beautiful as love. Nothing breaks my heart more than when past experiences jade someone's point of view on something. We all know how fickle it is...and we all know how much hurt it can entail. But that's what makes it so amazing when it DOES work out. Just because you've been in relationships that haven't worked out doesn't mean that you're going to keep on failing at it if you keep trying. It just means that you haven't met the right person yet. INTJs are unique creatures and it takes someone special to understand them and embrace them for who they truly are. It's hard to find those types of people I'll admit...but they're out there. As long as you keep being yourself and doing what makes you happy, the right person will notice and will want to accompany you on this funky thing called life. :kitteh:

Keep your head up, my dear Icy. Great treasures will await you as long as you're willing to brave the storms. It'll make you a stronger person and you'll gain a lot of valuable life experience while you go at it. Feeling hurt is a normal reaction when it comes to heartbreak. Don't be afraid to give yourself time to work through those feelings. In the meantime, keep living your life and staying busy. We're here for you. :happy:
 
#23 ·
Nothing breaks my heart more than when past experiences jade someone's point of view on something.
Just because you've been in relationships that haven't worked out doesn't mean that you're going to keep on failing at it if you keep trying. It just means that you haven't met the right person yet.
LOL that's real sweet of you INFP, but maybe he's been aware of the pattern of failure long before this latest failure.
I'd suggest that as an INTJ he recognized the pattern many years before he decided to write this thread.
Geez you practically gave him 2 cookies & a glass of warm milk to comfort him, but don't you think it'd be more useful to suggest he take steps to improve himself?
IMHO he might consider working on healing himself, then improving himself, developing better social/relationship skills & take another chance after he's better prepared. Nurturing & maintaining a serious relationship takes work these days, both sides have to put in the work or it breaks down & somebody leaves for greener pastures.
Just saying that he's 28 years old, don't baby him if you could instead motivate him to improve himself.
 
#21 ·
I think that comparing yourself to others based upon MBTI type is quite likely to make you neurotic. However if you must compare, then consider a real world comparison rather than outdated early 20th century stereotypes.
INTJs have some good qualities but the average ESTJ is more sociable, loving/romantic, not scared of relationships/commitment & value family above all else.
The average ESTJ earns significantly greater income than the average INTJ salary.
A typical ESTJ is highly motivated to protect & provide for his family as best he can & IRL that's the type guy that nature programmed women (including INFPs) to prefer. He's the protector + the provider = ESTJ The Guardian.


I'd suggest that you don't bother being angry or jealous of the ESTJ, he likely had no idea that the INFP lady was involved with you. If it's any consolation, you can bet the farm that she's very likely going to dump Mr ESTJ soon enough. Nothing lasts forever, shit happens & either life goes on or you hide within self imposed isolation.

Grieve your loss, be grateful for the good times, learn from the experience & don't give up.
BTW: There's always MGTOW to sooth your ouchy feels
 
#22 ·
Imagine being all that you described and a WOMAN, that's like an anti-romance charm times hundred. Many guys want timid, shy, caring feeler woman and even though I look feminine and cute... puting it simply, I've got an attitude - INTJ attitude, that is, and most guys are scared shitless of that when they think of me as a potential dating material. I've been told that I'm too independent, opinionated, rational and whatnot, or that "I don't want to date another dude".
It's funny though, how INTJ guys may not seem to be "alpha-male" enough, while INTJ women are usually too "manly" for guys to handle.

You might find interesting that I chose "average" ESTJ over fabulous ENTJ and looking back I have no regrets (which is a thing that our brains are programmed to do, but that's topic for entirely different discussion). The main problem was physical attraction, which sounds pretty shallow but relationship simply can't work if the other person is sexual but your body finds their physical touch almost repelling (I suppose it must have been pheromone thing, the ENTJ guy was pretty attractive objectively but I felt no physical desire towards him whatsoever). Could be that something so banal like this was involved in the case of your recent defeat.

Carry on, brother, and keep trying. Or don't. I think that people are most attractive when they are not interested in relationship at all. So maybe you decide that you're done with romance for good and only then you'll be able to stumble upon somebody who won't choose boring ass ESTJ over you, because you'll be the sole interest of that special person.
 
#34 ·
It's funny though, how INTJ guys may not seem to be "alpha-male" enough, while INTJ women are usually too "manly" for guys to handle.
Yes, I’ve noticed this paradox as well. It’s very perplexing actually.

You might find interesting that I chose "average" ESTJ over fabulous ENTJ and looking back I have no regrets (which is a thing that our brains are programmed to do, but that's topic for entirely different discussion). The main problem was physical attraction, which sounds pretty shallow but relationship simply can't work if the other person is sexual but your body finds their physical touch almost repelling (I suppose it must have been pheromone thing, the ENTJ guy was pretty attractive objectively but I felt no physical desire towards him whatsoever). Could be that something so banal like this was involved in the case of your recent defeat.
Quite honestly, I don’t know the exact reason why I wasn’t chosen. Many on this thread have offered some interesting theories though. I must admit I’m curious about this, but there is no real need to find out. However, the idea that it might have been something shallow is painful.

Not long ago, the INFP woman herself told me that even though I don’t look, behave or speak like the typical alpha male, my mind was very masculine. I admit she might have a point because I’m far from being competent in lots of physical activities, i.e. I can’t fix cars, drive motorcycles, lift bricks, ride horses or watch sports. Instead, I’m a nerdy guy who’s always been white-collar (thank G-d) and who’s mostly interested in intellectual pursuits, such as history, philosophy, literature, gemology, astronomy, languages, evolutionary biology, economics, finance, mythology, political science, mysticism, old legends, etc.

So, I understand that even if alpha males are overrated by society in general, they are still considered attractive by many women (including both sensors and intuitives). In case I decide not to forsake romance as a result of the aforementioned defeat, I hope I’m lucky enough to meet a cute smart woman who likes somebody as unconventional as me. :unsure:
 
#24 ·
I apologize in advance for this very long reply.

First of all, I hope this INFP .... would drop dead. She betrayed you and I don't tolerate this kind of behavior.

Now

I guess those are desirable traits
Yes they are + Your personality is great.

Moreover, a woman once told me I’m a handsome man and that, if my personality were different, women would melt for me.
That woman is an ignorant. Don't listen to her. Don't change who you are and don't pretend to be someone you're not. The best person you can be is yourself. You should find someone will love you for who you are despite whatever flaws you may have, accept them, and never try to change you or "fix" you. If someone is constantly trying to change, then they don't love you and they never will. If they think they do, then they're delusional.

You're picking the wrong women to date. All those relationships were doomed from the start. I know that you probably invested a lot of effort in trying to make those relationships work but if the other person wasn't willing to make it work, then it will definitely fail.

INTJ-ness is a bliss because it makes us appreciate the important things in life like love, family, friendship, trust, loyalty... + it's an immunity against shallowness.
But it also makes us see things as they are, not as we aspire them to be.
Also, it makes us notice true love when it happens while others may not. When you find someone who understands you, doesn't try to change you, makes you feel comfortable, safe and happy, then hold on to her and never let her go, because she's your true love.
You can either wait for true love to come to you, or you can search for it yourself.
Don't give up on love because of all those failed relationships, you were just picking the wrong people.
When two people are too different, even if there are strong feelings, and if one of them is not willing to make things work and try to find a compromise, then the relationship is destined to fail.

So don't give up, but be more careful. When you meet someone, analyze her personality, the pros and cons of the relationship, and if there's hope for the relationship to work.

no expectations = no disappointment
That's true. Don't have expectations, so that if thing don't work out, you won't get disappointed in the end.

What Albert Einstein actually meant is that insanity is when you keep repeating the same mistake over and over again and when you keep trying the same way even though it failed many times before. It's like a fly trapped inside a bottle but still trying to get out from the bottom of the bottle because there's light over there, the fly keeps hitting its head against the glass over and over again but still keeps trying. However, there's another way out.

So instead of keep trying to make relationships work with the type of women you're picking. Try another type. Like NTs? or an INTJ girl?

You can also write down a list of everything you want in a girl, and start searching. It will keep you oriented. That doesn't mean that if a girl is great but doesn't fit all the criteria on that list, then you let her go. The list is just so that you figure out what you want in general.

And if you start a relationship with someone and you feel like it's a challenge and it needs a lot of energy to work, then give up on that relationship before you get attached to each other because it's destined to fail.
In a relationship, you should feel loved, happy and comfortable. If not, than what's the point? Single life is much better than being in a failed relationship and trying to pick up the pieces to fix it but it can never be fixed.
 
#36 ·
Hello @Lucyyy :kitteh: Thanks for sharing your perspective on this

First of all, I hope this INFP .... would drop dead. She betrayed you and I don't tolerate this kind of behavior.
I’m afraid she can’t be accused of betrayal. We were just dating each other (no formal relationship) so loyalty had not been promised at any point.

Still, I guess she was dating both competitors (the ESTJ and me) at the same time, so she could choose one of the two suitors…

That woman is an ignorant. Don't listen to her. Don't change who you are and don't pretend to be someone you're not. The best person you can be is yourself. You should find someone will love you for who you are despite whatever flaws you may have, accept them, and never try to change you or "fix" you. If someone is constantly trying to change, then they don't love you and they never will. If they think they do, then they're delusional.

INTJ-ness is a bliss because it makes us appreciate the important things in life like love, family, friendship, trust, loyalty... + it's an immunity against shallowness.
But it also makes us see things as they are, not as we aspire them to be.
I’ve always valued authenticity. For me, it’s one of the most respectable traits. I usually emphasize that cynicism is preferable over hypocrisy. After learning my MBTI type, I wholeheartedly embraced my flaws and my virtues, without any regrets. I’m proud of my INTJ-ness even though I know it entails both awesome strengths and frustrating weaknesses.

You're picking the wrong women to date. All those relationships were doomed from the start. I know that you probably invested a lot of effort in trying to make those relationships work but if the other person wasn't willing to make it work, then it will definitely fail.

When two people are too different, even if there are strong feelings, and if one of them is not willing to make things work and try to find a compromise, then the relationship is destined to fail.

And if you start a relationship with someone and you feel like it's a challenge and it needs a lot of energy to work, then give up on that relationship before you get attached to each other because it's destined to fail.

In a relationship, you should feel loved, happy and comfortable. If not, than what's the point? Single life is much better than being in a failed relationship and trying to pick up the pieces to fix it but it can never be fixed.
This sounds very deterministic but I’m inclined to agree with your remarks actually.

When you find someone who understands you, doesn't try to change you, makes you feel comfortable, safe and happy, then hold on to her and never let her go, because she's your true love.
You can either wait for true love to come to you, or you can search for it yourself.
Don't give up on love because of all those failed relationships, you were just picking the wrong people.

So don't give up, but be more careful. When you meet someone, analyze her personality, the pros and cons of the relationship, and if there's hope for the relationship to work.

What Albert Einstein actually meant is that insanity is when you keep repeating the same mistake over and over again and when you keep trying the same way even though it failed many times before. It's like a fly trapped inside a bottle but still trying to get out from the bottom of the bottle because there's light over there, the fly keeps hitting its head against the glass over and over again but still keeps trying. However, there's another way out.

So instead of keep trying to make relationships work with the type of women you're picking. Try another type. Like NTs? or an INTJ girl?

You can also write down a list of everything you want in a girl, and start searching. It will keep you oriented. That doesn't mean that if a girl is great but doesn't fit all the criteria on that list, then you let her go. The list is just so that you figure out what you want in general.
Thank you. As a fellow INTJ, I really appreciate your contribution to this discussion. I’ll keep in mind your suggestions. Furthermore, the criteria you mentioned sound strategically insightful.

On the other hand, it’s interesting that INTJs and INFPs on this thread agree that premature surrender is not the best course of action. Both of them make me think that perhaps success in this realm is not so hopeless after all.

Last but not least, I wonder if you agree with the idea put forward by other submitters that the wisest plan is to remain involved in my interests, pursuits, hobbies, and, at the same time, keeping the window of opportunity open in case a compatible female with SO potential comes across. Please let me know what you think about this. I’ll appreciate it a lot.
 
#37 ·
Thanks for the hugs. Under these circumstances I need strategic advice, as well as some emotional encouragement. Both are important this time. I'm grateful for your help in both realms :kitteh:
 
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#26 ·
Even as an INTJ relationship failures take time to recover from especially considering the time and energy "you felt" you put in. You were probably perpetually single before this relationship so you're just going back to that(unless you've kept a string of girlfriends, which is unlikely for an INTJ)

I'm just now getting over a girl that left me for close to the same reason. It's been a tough cycle fending off potential suitors while going about my daily activities so I've concluded the quicker you can get over this, the easier your next relationship or heartbreak will be. Keep your psyche and ego in check, intact, and move on.

..or try to break them up and get your "girl" back. (Which I don't recommend considering it will be difficult to re-adjust your personality for a significant amount of time to keep it from happening again)
 
#27 · (Edited)
We are born alone - we die alone.

Relationships are for chumps - try serial dating / serial monogamy / and sex.

There is no control - uncertainty - no support, thus it is a illogical situation to put %100 dependency in.

We must move on and be comfortable in solitude and singlehood and leave the babymaking up to others.

----> As INTJ's our only purpose in this world is bringing intellect and goodness to the less fortunate.

Our mission is not spousal support --> Our mission is becoming as smart as possible so we can help this world and leave everything we have learned behind to others.

No time to marinate on feelings and other crap that hinder and hold our potentials back.

Aim for the top always and don't stop - we will help all those below in need.

No will understand our inferior (Fi) - thus no one deserves it.

Time to be tough, INTJ - leave the 'F's to the others and at the door.
 
#38 ·
It looks like you agree with my initial conclusion that it’s best to forsake romance altogether, along with all the emotional liabilities it entails.

Of course I cannot afford to ignore this perspective and, as an INTJ, I need to consider both sides of the coin from a dispassionate POV, in order to adjust my compass towards the most convenient destination, accepting that the two alternatives imply pros and cons.

You reminded me the proverb that “it’s lonely at the top”. :kitteh:
 
#28 ·
I've learned that love is not logical. Which is what gives our type the most difficulty in dealing with it.
You will try to find logical reasons for why it didn't work out, why she did this instead of that, what could you have done better.
And you may not find a logical answer.
Which drives you nuts.

The best thing to do is be yourself. And if someone interests you enough to pursue then go for it. If you don't the answer will always be no. Just like with dreams if you don't try you will always fail. And it takes many failures until you succeed. The difference between a beginner and a master is the master has failed more times than the beginner.

From your post it appears you have more experience dating than most INTJs on this forum (or that I've read posts on). And one night stands, whoa! I've never done that as it doesn't make sense to me. Why bother with the risk of an STD or potential emotional issues with someone who may not be a good fit as a long term partner?

I never dated or had sex until I was 23/24 because no-one interested me.
In fact I learned later on in life that I would reject and turn people down. Or women would flirt with me and I wouldn't notice. Or would be terrified to approach more and assume I wouldn't be interested or that I was taken. This caused some of them to go after my friends in order to make me jealous (which I still didn't notice) and I used to get a lot of my friends dates because of it.

Did that bother me?
Nope.
None of them were right for me, so who cares.


Personally, I've only been interested in two women with 2 other passing interests.
The two I mention were/are long term interests. One I dated for 7 years, the other I had a moment with many years ago and would like to date and I am pursuing her.


The most important thing is to always be yourself. Women and Men are drawn to INTJ type because we tend to be genuine about who we are and what are goals are and not focus on putting on a persona to try have sex or get a relationship. This is a trait that becomes more attractive in others as you get older. Because most people are not comfortable with who they are. And most are not confident in what they want to do. And many get sick of dealing with facades. So really be genuine stands out.


Be confident in your goals and with who you are as a person.

And please don't trouble yourself over the alpha/jerk/beta/omega social hierarchy types. People put way too much stock in them. And a lot of people assume someone is an Alpha when they are actually a jerk.
The Jerk is defined as:
"The second type of guy is the jerk. These guys can be aggressive, confrontational, and have serious anger problems. They may have some good social skills at times (like charm), but can easily digress into inappropriate behavior and be overly and inappropriately sexual. They are often much more feared than loved. When it comes down to it, jerks are very self-centered, typically insecure (bravado more than confidence) and lack empathy.

At their best, jerks can be charming. They also appear very confident and powerful. This is why other men like them and women typically find them attractive. However, they rarely maintain the façade of confidence and poise for long. That leads to their worst side: violence (even emotional), control, and intimidation."

Many people perceive 'The Jerk' is an alpha. That is not actually the case. Eventually people see 'The Jerk' for who they really are and leave them. A true alpha likely doesn't know they are an alpha. And if they do they don't care. An alpha emphasizes being a powerful protector and provider who doesn’t resort to force. Confident, funny, and cool under pressure. Never afraid to say what they have to say and to pursue their goals and desires.
 
#39 ·
I've learned that love is not logical. Which is what gives our type the most difficulty in dealing with it.
You will try to find logical reasons for why it didn't work out, why she did this instead of that, what could you have done better.
And you may not find a logical answer.
Which drives you nuts.
Agree 100%. It’s just beyond baffling!

The best thing to do is be yourself. And if someone interests you enough to pursue then go for it. If you don't the answer will always be no. Just like with dreams if you don't try you will always fail. And it takes many failures until you succeed. The difference between a beginner and a master is the master has failed more times than the beginner.
This is indeed wise. Thank you! I agree that authenticity is rare, courageous and admirable.

From your post it appears you have more experience dating than most INTJs on this forum (or that I've read posts on). And one night stands, whoa! I've never done that as it doesn't make sense to me. Why bother with the risk of an STD or potential emotional issues with someone who may not be a good fit as a long term partner?
TBH, one-night stands are shallow, empty, meaningless and hedonistic, but they’re also highly pleasurable and, from an INTJ perspective, they’re very affordable in terms of cost-benefit analysis i.e. (highly pleasant + minimum drama + no commitment). In my case, the opportunity has presented itself a few times and I think it was unwise to waste it. Moreover, if adequate protection measures are implemented, everything should be fine. Nevertheless, I admit this is not something I’m very proud of.

The most important thing is to always be yourself. Women and Men are drawn to INTJ type because we tend to be genuine about who we are and what are goals are and not focus on putting on a persona to try have sex or get a relationship. This is a trait that becomes more attractive in others as you get older. Because most people are not comfortable with who they are. And most are not confident in what they want to do. And many get sick of dealing with facades. So really be genuine stands out.

Be confident in your goals and with who you are as a person.

And please don't trouble yourself over the alpha/jerk/beta/omega social hierarchy types. People put way too much stock in them. And a lot of people assume someone is an Alpha when they are actually a jerk.
:happy: Thanks again
 
#43 ·
*another akward 4seconds hug* Silly girl!

These are sort of rhetorical points/questions, no need to respond just because it ends on a question mark :)

1. What if you knew how many dating partners it takes to find the real one, would that help your calculus? (google it!)
Something like 'I've tried all diets!' when you only tried 3.

2. The real question is: are you too afraid to get hurt again? Or is it about you not being fit to have a relationship? Or about others not being fit to have a relationship with you? If you know a relationship will end in 1 year, would you dismiss it, or would you explore the person anyway?

3. Was there something in this relationship that made it valuable as a part of your life? Did you learn or experience something good, or was it all bad?

4. Females in their 20's want the alpha's. Females in their 30's want breeding potential. Failures of the past are no guaranty for results of the future.

5. Why the f* would you change your personality? I like who you are. Interested in an online date while you look out for someone more local? :)

6. Would it not be a bit strange to presume that because it is you, everybody must see a soul mate in you? A strategist, yes, a romantic flirt, hardly, a companion, for very few - hate to break it to you, but that is the price of being INTJ.

7. I do not date. I have enough at looking a possible mister right in the eyes, and I'll know it is him i have waited for. If he is right, I will tell him i fancy him. They're always INTJ's or INTP's, so i skip the flirting.
I often scan crowded rooms for him, but nothing lately. I know it is possible, for i have found him before - but a spiritual thing intervened. So, been looking for 10 years now. I did try having a relation with a ISFP, but he drove me crazy. I drive people crazy as well. The match must be good. The sexual energy as well.

8. In business the advice is: if you don't get the contract, check again after 3 months - maybe their first choice did not turn out to be so great after all.

9. Some controlled destruction helps me in such cases. Like ripping about a phone listing book or hitting something at the gym. The grief process is important. But I like to handle the anger part first. Because I'm not good at controlling anger, it needs to get out as soon as possible. Only then I can think rational again. Before I try to control it with reasoning, but that is a dangerous game for anyone close to me.

10. It sucks big time if you do not know why. Wait for a month, drop her for now. Send her an email in a month, asking to explain why she broke up and explaining why you want to know. Maybe she'll tell. If not, let it go.

The only thing really healing and valuable in life is love. Ask yourself: as you are dying, would you regret having tried to give love to much , or not enough?
 
#49 ·
Hello @Zuflex, your contribution is food for thought and worth pondering over.

*another akward 4seconds hug* Silly girl!
Thank you! I’m grateful C=

These are sort of rhetorical points/questions, no need to respond just because it ends on a question mark :)
I’m glad you make this clear. As an INTJ, I often tend to answer rhetorical questions haha. And that’s great because… quite honestly, I don’t have the answers to many of them.

2. The real question is: are you too afraid to get hurt again? Or is it about you not being fit to have a relationship? Or about others not being fit to have a relationship with you? If you know a relationship will end in 1 year, would you dismiss it, or would you explore the person anyway?
IDK, I’m not sure… I’d probably answer “yes” to more than one of those questions

5. Why the f* would you change your personality?

A strategist, yes, a romantic flirt, hardly, a companion, for very few - hate to break it to you, but that is the price of being INTJ.
I wholeheartedly embrace my INTJ-ness, including both the assets and the liabilities as, for me, authenticity is non-negotiable.

I like who you are. Interested in an online date while you look out for someone more local? :)
Really? Is this a joke or are you being serious? Do you really think that? :unsure: Sometimes I can’t tell the difference, so asking directly is always better, in order to dissipate doubts or misinterpretations :kitteh:

8. In business the advice is: if you don't get the contract, check again after 3 months - maybe their first choice did not turn out to be so great after all.
For judgers, this kind of flexibility to reassess things along the way is difficult to achieve, but I’ll keep in mind this advice… for my professional endeavors :kitteh:

9. Some controlled destruction helps me in such cases. Like ripping about a phone listing book or hitting something at the gym. The grief process is important. But I like to handle the anger part first. Because I'm not good at controlling anger, it needs to get out as soon as possible. Only then I can think rational again. Before I try to control it with reasoning, but that is a dangerous game for anyone close to me.
I can relate. Closure is important for my mind, in order to avoid any further ambiguity once a conclusion has been reached. However, I experience this less emotionally.

The only thing really healing and valuable in life is love. Ask yourself: as you are dying, would you regret having tried to give love to much , or not enough?
I honestly admit love is a nice way to transcend or at least one of the most popular. However, I genuinely believe there might be other ways. Some of the greatest individuals many people have sought to emulate throughout the centuries might or might not have been successful in the realm of romance (no one ones, or no one cares), i.e. they are remembered for other accomplishments.

Please feel free to write back whenever you like, either here or via PM. Your comments are more than welcome and appreciated. :happy:
 
#51 ·
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#52 ·
I think by a certain age if we have a skill that remains undeveloped we start to get the sense it's just not in us to learn it... which is incidentally why learning an instrument as an adult is so hard. Hence the fatalism. TBH I recently went on a few OKCupid dates. Not looking for love, per se. Just meeting people. And wow, did I improve. Just meet people. Be charming. Be interested in them. But don't expect anything. Good luck!

Oh my god. I SO do this. I recently messaged two confirmed INTJs on OKCupid. We got into a good conversation right away. And it looked like we want all the same things out of relationships too.
 
#57 ·
Thank you. I agree: Authenticity is not option :kitteh:. However, even though I'd sometimes like to loosen up, it's easier said than done. On the other hand, I admit my lexicon might sound complex or "bookish" (as my ENFP boss describes it), but I just can't help it: I can't easily dismiss my fixation with accuracy, because it's actually meant to make things clear, regardless of whether the context is formal or informal.
 
#54 ·
Sometimes damsels in distress want to be saved and also don't want to be saved or can't be fixed.

I know you said you meant it more in going for the 'cute, soft girl.'

I guess my thoughts are that you are trying to go for the wrong type of girl, a type that goes for the more stereotypical guy. I personally think INTJ guys are amazing, my Fiance being one :D They (from the many guys I've met through this site and irl and my fiance) tend to be very smart, have all sorts of cool interests, very mushy and romantic at the core, and very respectful and gentle. Basically, amazing. But not the stereotypical guy written about in romance books - they are feeding women stereotypical junk. But maybe if they wrote one about what it's like to be truly loved by an INTJ guy the INTJ guys would get no peace. :crazy:

I'm not a damsel in distress type at all. I am very complex, yes, and I have my weaknesses, but I am in general very headstrong and independent. I am probably what most would consider cute though (no pics, might break the thread. :p jk). But I do love my INTJ very much, he is a perfect compliment to who I am. He is very respectful of my independence and yet I want to be with him because of it. We can be romantic together. I love who he is.

(lol now I may be encouraging the threads 'where are all the INTJ women hiding? I hear they are amazing!') But I don't think it matters what type the woman is - she just has to be smart enough to throw aside the stereotypes and figure out how amazing it is to actually be loved by an INTJ. So I'm sorry the books and stories give many women stereotypes they think they will like, or at least they know the arc of the story of what happens, even if it's subconscious. I know I was sucked in to a large degree by the stereotypes. Maybe as INTJ it is easier for us to clearly see the stereotype and then we can peel back the curtains and realize it isn't true.

Maybe you learning more about the stereotypes women are fed is something you could use in future relationships - ie how to highlight how you are better than those stereotypes - not through words but through actions and showing who you really are. I don't really have any concrete examples coming to mind of romantic male characters that I have read recently. But my general impression is that they tend to be cold and not respectful or acting out of lust. Over and over and over again that is how male heros are presented. It's disgusting and doesn't have to be true. Somehow that's presented as the best that a guy could be. And often by female writers. I have no idea how horrible their own lives must be to write characters that way to hold up as desirable. Or maybe it's to comfort women who's lives aren't so good but are still better than that? I doubt so - these 'romance' books are kindof idealized by a lot of women. Anyhow sorry this turned into a bit of a rant. I guess it just disgusts me a lot. (I guess one of the few authors who doesn't write male characters like that is Jane Austen. But she also doesn't write her male characters very deeply either.)

I know from the posts that you have made that you think a lot, and you are very considerate of other people's perspectives. This makes you respected in my eyes. I think those two things together are the most powerful tools to succeed in relationships. Because thinking about values allows you to determine your own and to see clearly. And being considerate of others allows you to navigate relationships with other people in a mature and healthy way.

So basically, I think you have a lot going for you. You just haven't met the right girl yet. (and maybe you are looking in the wrong places. Try the physics or sci-fi section at the library instead of the romance section? :crazy: )
 
#58 ·
Thanks, I read your post with great interest actually. It was engagingly amusing. I enjoyed it a lot and I honestly happen to agree that stereotypes of the ideal man/woman, commonly portrayed in pop culture, are purely fictional creations.

Sometimes, it's difficult to empty my mind and stop thinking. It's what I've been doing for a living ever since I entered college more than a decade ago, so impersonal intellectual analysis is difficult to shake off. It sounds counterintuitive, but maybe avoiding over-thinking does pay off.

Last but not least, your suggestion about reaching out to a fellow freak (INFJ, INTJ, INFP...) is intriguingly convincing... :kitteh:
 
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#55 ·
Try not to harbor bitterness. It blights all positive qualities in you. It is easy for me to see bitterness when I talk to guys (I had, in my days, met a lot of strangers from dating web sites).

When I was younger I used to spend months trying to analyze or understand why guys picked other women over me. The interesting thing happens after 20 years. My exes, the ones who dumped me to marry someone else, one was divorced and two were not happily married (they contacted me to see if I'd consent to ONS or some such).

Perhaps in the future you can look back and be glad these girls didn't pick you. In life, failure can be a blessing in disguise.
 
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#60 ·
I don't know if anyone has said it or not, but the flaw in romance coming from an INTJ is the strategizing. Strategizing is not so romantic. Allow yourself to be caught up in those moments without over thinking them. Hell don't think at all in those moments. I know it's hard not to do this as a INTJ.

Fe's from my experience love spontaneity.

Eg. : Conversation going on, she mentions something she loves to do, or wants to see. Don't take a week to plan it out. Do it right then and there and drag her out the door.

This only comes from my experience, take it as you will.
 
#63 ·
Agree. It's difficult and humbling to accept that strategizing is not useful for romantic pursuits. However, love does not necessarily make logical sense so it can't be explained according to rational criteria or through strategic analysis, much to my chagrin. S=
 
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