[Daemos]

I've been trying to tell snail her guy seemed a lot more INTJ-ish for months now

your INTP does sound like an asshole--.'"

INTJ for sure ^^

While I would originally haven given you the advice of just seeing him less frequently and see if that reduces the arguments after reading Cryptonia's post I can see how that would annoy him more if he didn't know why. That leaves you with 2 sensible options I guess. Either tell him how you feel and take it from there, or tell him that you need some time alone to think about your relationship, optionally telling him that he's hurting you. Do not go for the "well if you don't know why then I guess you don't care" I find myself getting highly annoyed when someone does that to me.



I really wish I could give some concrete advice here but I must admit I've never had this happen to me so I'm just going with what I think are your best options. Combined with the fact intp's are not naturally proficient at relationships you're setting yourself up for some high quality advise here ;)

[Schwarz]

That said, as much as it'd hurt to watch him hurt, be upfront and tell the guy the truth. If you drift away quietly, he'll have no idea why, and very likely end up bitter and grow to hate you in your absence for causing him pain for no apparent reason.

There is no faster way to turn me into a seething ball of resentment than to do this. I'd rather have someone insult me to my face. At least that way they're not wasting my time.

[slowriot]

I think you need to figure out what you need, it seems like you expect more from the time you spend together than he can give you. Its kind of classic behavior, he gets what he wants and you feel abused. Just not at a physical level but emotional level. Have you asked him what he sees you as? Maybe he dont consider it to be a relationship/dating. Maybe he has different expectations than you or maybe he wont give you what you need.

And figure out if he's a INTJ or INTP there is a major differences in our ways. I speculate he's an INTJ, I would want things to be clear from the start but would be open to changes. I would respect you for whatever position you take, but I also have a playful side where I can be sarcastic to the people I have feelings for. It never goes too deep though, I have still have and show respect. What you have to understand is that if you comment everything and gives judgement to all things it is going to annoy an INTP at some point. We look at the world as an entity and there is no black and white there is almost always a grey to anything, we like nuancing we dont like clear cut in stone ideas.

I have problems with my grandmother lately with this, she's clearly my opposite and gives judgement to anything and at a certain time its just enough for me and I give it tough and clearly to her. And I've been told from my parents that she feels hurt by that, but even if I say things in a way that hurts her I still respects her as my grandmother. Just an example.

So its about finding a common understanding to how to communicate with eachother.

[ThisProtest]

I think you need to figure out what you need, it seems like you expect more from the time you spend together than he can give you.

Strangely, it's our time together, if private (because he's extremely tense in pubic places), that is almost painfully sincere. I don't mean sex, but all of our time. It's the disagreements that have caused the problems.

Honestly, I do not think he's aware of his limits. I've seen him make efforts to at least appease me but it's iike watching a cat try not to catch a bird. It almost seems to go against his nature.

But now I am more aware of the limits and must make a decision.

Its kind of classic behavior, he gets what he wants and you feel abused.

Classic with INTPs or classic for humans?

Just not at a physical level but emotional level. Have you asked him what he sees you as? Maybe he dont consider it to be a relationship/dating. Maybe he has different expectations than you or maybe he wont give you what you need.

Yes, I am trying to figure out what I need. That way, if I know what I need then I can say, "I need X, can you give it to me?"

And figure out if he's a INTJ or INTP there is a major differences in our ways. I speculate he's an INTJ,

I'm new to al the types so I don't know any very well except I see him in both INTX.

I would want things to be clear from the start but would be open to changes.

Hmm, I think he described his other relationships starting as friendships then turning into more. Not a bad stratetgy if one does not want to be clear from the start.

I would respect you for whatever position you take, but I also have a playful side where I can be sarcastic to the people I have feelings for.

Check. (He thinks he is this way.)

What you have to understand is that if you comment everything and gives judgement to all things it is going to annoy an INTP at some point. We look at the world as an entity and there is no black and white there is almost always a grey to anything, we like nuancing we dont like clear cut in stone ideas.

This sounds just like him and us. I'm accustomed to discussing and critiquing everything and lately there's been a lot! So, yes I can see how an INTP and maybe a J would find this annoying. I find it annoying too.

I have problems with my grandmother lately with this, she's clearly my opposite and gives judgement to anything and at a certain time its just enough for me and I give it tough and clearly to her. And I've been told from my parents that she feels hurt by that, but even if I say things in a way that hurts her I still respects her as my grandmother. Just an example.

At the risk of sounding like I'm defending him, he thinks he respects me because he pays attention to me. Seriously, if he doesn't think a person is worth his time they simply don't exist. Our difference is our definition of respect.

So its about finding a common understanding to how to communicate with each other.

Yes.

[cryptonia]

At the risk of sounding like I'm defending him, he thinks he respects me because he pays attention to me. Seriously, if he doesn't think a person is worth his time they simply don't exist. Our difference is our definition of respect.

uh oh.... warning signs all over that one. Not so much different definitions of respect.... stuff like that's bound to happen. Not thinking people are worth his time often-enough that you know how he acts when he sees them that way that makes me cringe a little bit, though.

[ThisProtest]

ThisProtest: first--you sound like an ISFP to me. It hardly matters, but it's just what I saw.

I just read that profile and while I'm sure I'm not, I can see why you'd think that based on what I've posted. It is important to me that I explain I care for this INTx.

Second, "quietly spending less time" with me would not be the best way to reduce drama. ...but it's dozens of times worse for any IxTx you try it on.

While I have no idea how he'd actually take it, there's no way he'd ever let on that it would bother him. Maybe you wouldn't let on either, I'm just saying.

That said, as much as it'd hurt to watch him hurt, be upfront and tell the guy the truth. If you drift away quietly, he'll have no idea why, and very likely end up bitter and grow to hate you in your absence for causing him pain for no apparent reason.

I really don't think he'll show any hurt. He'll go cold as ice. Maybe I'm really trying to avoid being hurt by his need to show his indifference?

It might ruin your friendship if you tell him straight what the problems are, and that you need to back off (if you let him know you feel like you're constantly censoring yourself, I think it'd ring some bells with him--most likely he's only mean because he doesn't feel like anyone should have to censor themselves)... but I'm almost sure it will if you start making semi-excuses not to hang out and backing away quietly. I've never yet had someone do that to me that I didn't end up upset wit

So, I should say, "I like you a lot, as you know, but since we argue so differently I need some space."?

and the whole idea of deception (yes, that's how it's received if you try to spend less time together quietly) and hidden motives are virtually incomprehensible to them.

He thinks about strategy and hidden motives all the time.

In that same vein, I strongly doubt he's actually trying to drive you away. I was actually stunned when I found out that people would really do that, and I don't think it'd occur to him either. That said, your INTP does sound like an asshole--or at the least really immature--

Yes, he's immature. I've been quite surprised at times by just how bad it seems to be and it's only become apparent through our disagreements. In fact, that's probably the real reason that my flag has gone up, the lights came on, and all those sayings about becoming aware of a possibly disturbing trait.

so just because he's not truly trying to dive you away, I certainly don't think you should try to stick it out and make sacrifices all the time. That'd just be a recipe for disaster (for you).

I agree.

So, I don't think there's any other advice to give--just that "however it ends up working out if you're up front about your need for space because he's hurting you, it likely would have worked out much worse if you tried to do it quietly and 'painlessly.'"

edit: On second thought, I better add this. I didn't want to say it at first, cause it's not worth criticizing unnecessarily--but since it has a distinct purpose, I figure I'd better. Your whole relationship with him (good friends, but lots of casual sex... he hurts you, but you still hang out with him... those kinds of things) sounds reeally immature. That is, whatever-it-is seems doomed already. I wouldn't have brought it up, except for the fact that you said snail's post from the 'what do you hate about intps' thread rang lots of bells. The guy she was describing was.... well, to put it lightly, the most evil person that I've ever heard existing. He, too, showed all sorts of care at the beginning, and trailed it off significantly later, until he turned fully abusive (and then some). I've never yet heard of any person doing as much psychological damage to another as he did.... and I've heard stories from a lot of different people who have been abused in their lives. If her post really did ring that many bells, you might want to consider the possibility that you should just run away and never look back.

Thank you for adding this. I'm not offended just appreciative.

Would there be any advantage to my reposting my thread on the INTJs' forum?

[starri]

Funny people are saying you sound ISFP when you strike me as a developed ENFP and I can see why you would confuse your NFP when you get healthy.

In this situation I second the opinions above about being frank with him. Like sit alone with yourself and sort out exactly how you feel about him now, and how you see it going in the next year, 5 yr, or so. And when you are true to yourself that way you can easily place him in his allocated position in your life.

Sometimes firm action needs to be taken, like to actually say the words * this isn't working for me as is, we need to fix it somehow * (doesn't matter if he is P or J)

I'd say keep the part added by cryptonia in the back of your head, but not because he is INTP, but because he is human and alot of guys are bound to that flaw of hanging on for the sex and you expressing your love to him might be taken as need for the sex, and then he refuses to call you anything more than friends.. can you see where I am going? This is a possibility among many.

[slowriot]

Funny people are saying you sound ISFP when you strike me as a developed ENFP and I can see why you would confuse your NFP when you get healthy.

In this situation I second the opinions above about being frank with him. Like sit alone with yourself and sort out exactly how you feel about him now, and how you see it going in the next year, 5 yr, or so. And when you are true to yourself that way you can easily place him in his allocated position in your life.

Sometimes firm action needs to be taken, like to actually say the words * this isn't working for me as is, we need to fix it somehow * (doesn't matter if he is P or J)

I'd say keep the part added by cryptonia in the back of your head, but not because he is INTP, but because he is human and alot of guys are bound to that flaw of hanging on for the sex and you expressing your love to him might be taken as need for the sex, and then he refuses to call you anything more than friends.. can you see where I am going? This is a possibility among many.

I agree with this and what I meant with the classic example is pretty good worded in the last paragraph.

It dont matter what type he is, you need to be respected for the way you communicate as he is needed to respected for his way. You just need to find common ground. Thats pretty much what a relationship is about, if that is what you want.

[cryptonia]

what do you mean, "wonders about" hidden motivations all the time? For some reason, when you put it that way, it's like a whole blocked-chunk of my memory popped open, and I realize that I did that too, and am not quite sure why I put it like that in my last post.

What I should have said is--if someone did that to me, even if I considered them better-than-friends, the reasons you would be doing it (unless you had told me specifically) would be about the last ones that would ever come to mind. The first, if I thought it was for a bad-situation that they were withdrawing (definitely the stronger of these two), would be "they've gotten sick of me" or "I annoyed them too much." If I thought we were perfectly fine, I would just assume that the little first-stages of the relationship were over, and we were starting to shift back into our everyday-life mode. I'm not sure if that applies, here, because I can't imagine myself becoming such close friends with someone who hurt me (or who I hurt) that badly. "They're backing off because I hurt them a lot" makes waay less sense, though, because I figure if that were the case, they'd just say so. And, since it makes so much less sense (instead of just coming to me, who may be able to fix it), I'm not even sure that it'd occur to me at all.


Anyway, yeah, I mean... posting it on the intj forum too couldn't hurt, could it? You might be able to tell by how their mannerisms differ from the INTPs' here which type your guy is, too. I strongly suspect that they'll say the same thing (for different reasons), though--or at least, I have a hard time imagining an INTJ saying much besides "you should always be 100% upfront about how you see things like that, and his reaction to it is his responsibility to deal with."

[ThisProtest]

Either tell him how you feel and take it from there, or tell him that you need some time alone to think about your relationship, optionally telling him that he's hurting you.

I had an eye opening experience with him within the past 24 hours. I'll elaborate in another post when I have more time but in all honesty, I don't think he'll interpret what I do, however I chose to do it, as anything other than, "She's offended perhaps, but she's offended because she was behaving poorly and I told her so."

Do not go for the "well if you don't know why then I guess you don't care" I find myself getting highly annoyed when someone does that to me.

Frankly, I've never understood that "well if you don't know..." bit. I never assume and appreciate upfront, honest people. I'd rather know why somebody felt the need to leave me than just fade away. My natural inclination is to tell the person I have a problem with them if the relationship matters.

Combined with the fact intp's are not naturally proficient at relationships you're setting yourself up for some high quality advise here ;)

IME, INTs with insight are great at explaining such things. However, it may be the combo of those individuals and me.

And I keep falling for you INTs, or at least I_T_s. Maybe that's why I thought I could handle this guy: his are not new traits to me, they are the same ingredients as the other guys but this one is far more self-centered and/ or afraid of pain.