[INTJ] The INTJ's 'Flaw'? - Page 2

The INTJ's 'Flaw'?

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This is a discussion on The INTJ's 'Flaw'? within the INTJ Forum - The Scientists forums, part of the NT's Temperament Forum- The Intellects category; I don't disagree with the concept of unity. I just prize productive independence over it if I have to choose. ...

  1. #11

    I don't disagree with the concept of unity. I just prize productive independence over it if I have to choose.

    Emphasis on unity over productivity doesn't work when you have people who don't prioritize productivity. Put me and my INTJ and/or ISTP friends on a project, you'll see some unity. We have a common goal along with the fervor to achieve it.

    Put me on a project with a less agreeable/focused/results oriented person, I will just do it myself because I'm not going to waste my energy trying to get along with someone when that is not my objective.

    I want to complete the task correctly. However that happens most efficiently will always be my option.
    EyesOpen, brightflashes, Clumsy and 2 others thanked this post.

  2. #12

    Quote Originally Posted by stathamspeacoat View Post
    I don't disagree with the concept of unity. I just prize productive independence over it if I have to choose.

    Emphasis on unity over productivity doesn't work when you have people who don't prioritize productivity. Put me and my INTJ and/or ISTP friends on a project, you'll see some unity. We have a common goal along with the fervor to achieve it.

    Put me on a project with a less agreeable/focused/results oriented person, I will just do it myself because I'm not going to waste my energy trying to get along with someone when that is not my objective.

    I want to complete the task correctly. However that happens most efficiently will always be my option.
    I tend to agree with this. But it made me laugh, as it reminded me of a section of that book that is currently being blogged on this sub-forum 'The Secret Lives of INTJs'. I only skimmed it and dived in at sections that looked interesting, like the section on problem solving. The author recounts an experiment where a bunch of engineers (SPs, SJs, TJs, NTPs) are challenged to assemble a lego puzzle in the shortest possible time (the time working out the puzzle is not taken into account). In the end:

    "The TJs won the contest hands down; from planning to execution, they were the most efficient of all
    groups. (They also managed to alienate one of their members, something that none of the other
    groups did.)
    Like all the TJs, the INTJs are a single minded bunch focused on results."


  3. #13

    Quote Originally Posted by Solstice Amarok View Post
    Would you suppose that the INTJ's need for independence overrides their need for unity could be affecting our social status/life?

    This one time when my teacher was speaking towards the entirety of the class about being a follower such as following the trends or popular gimmicks in the internet were getting students in trouble. There's also the whole social media fiasco where student do this and student do that, pretty much I've come across that there's nothing i could relate to merely due to my nonintervention with people.

    In essence, where other people would enter an environment and think "Who should i get along with?" while the INTJ would think "Which people do i go to, to finish stuff the fastest?" or just a 'time to work' attitude?
    That isn't being an INTJ that is having the social instinct in the blindspot.
    Dare thanked this post.

  4. #14
    INTJ

    I find it causes a LOT of issues for the people around me yet no immediate issues for me, but very bad long term issues. It only ever becomes an issue for me when other people make it their issue because then it somehow becomes my fault that they're unhappy. Which to me, is absolute madness.

    For instance I can not have people 'help' me with things I didn't ask them for help with; Like putting groceries away. There doesn't need to be two people putting groceries away. In my head it's far less productive to have two people. One person will be trying to have a conversation with me that I genuinely don't care about as it adds zero value or enrichment to my existence. This will annoy me and distract me, making me slower. Then if I opt for the time saver of not giving them directions and then having to explain to them the reasons behind every choice because they can't follow basic instructions, they're going to put things in the wrong spot and when I say wrong spot I mean I've already decided where they're going to go and in what order they should go for maximum fridge effectiveness, so you putting them elsewhere is wrong regardless if the area is 'generally' correct. 'I love you. Now get out of my kitchen.' become a catch phrase from me to my mom.

    But my friends and family, they just want to help and they think, 'PEOPLE LIKE HELPING! So I'm going to help them because that's what friends are for!' No. Go away. Now when you tell people to leave you alone or that you don't want help, they get butt hurt and take it offensively. Because if you decline help it means you don't want them around, and you don't care about their feelings, and their dog Skippy Blue Jr. died when they were 5 and all they wanted to do was help but they couldn't so now they try to help all they can and feeling helpless brings back all these negative emotions.

    Yeah, very sad. I'm going to pretend that I care because I know I'm supposed to ( and that you're either trying to manipulate me into exiting my comfort zone or you're just trying to unload your emotional baggage because you can't handle yourself ), but I don't care because that is all absolutely ridiculous to feel about putting away groceries and you're in the way. I just spent $12 on frozen confections that are melting away because you can't control yourself. I'm putting away groceries while you're Hallmark movie existence is messing it up. Leave, it's easier if you just leave.

    (Edit: As a note, this also causes issues socially in the future because I constantly devalue peoples feelings as being invalid, ridiculous, illogical, unwarranted. So when I feel emotions or feel like talking to someone about them, I immediately start negating my own emotions as I assume everyone feels the way I do and why waste my time talking about it? )

    People REALLY don't like feeling useless or unwanted and I think INTJ's independence 'aids' that feeling. For me, that causes problems with friends and family, pushing people away unintentionally and alienating yourself from 'regular' activities or social norms.

    Long term effect? It's lonely at times and sometimes I find myself envious of people who can so easily allow others to be in their bubbles. On the rare occasions where I do feel uh... 'chatty'? I immediately realize that there is no one on this entire planet I can talk to about -everything- and not a single person who really knows me; Because I have literally never let anyone in.

    I have friends, family, etc. I love them. But none of them know 'me' and there are more things that were never said than things that were said, and I will take them to my grave I'm sure of it.
    Last edited by BioSin; 03-20-2017 at 11:41 PM.
    RexMaximus and stathamspeacoat thanked this post.

  5. #15
    Unknown

    After being on this forum for a year or so now I've come to the understanding I seem to stand apart from even the usual INTJ test result.

    I am very independent and prefer to work alone, or if not alone, then with maybe one to two others who are close to me. I don't care to make friends nor hangout. Yet my stand is, and likely will always be, that unity brings about peace.

    Maybe it is in my ability to evolve my ego, which at times can still be somewhat arrogant, to be against my own nature. I've come to a truth, an understanding long ago that just because I don't particularly like it, does not mean it is wrong. And I came to the acceptance of that fact shortly thereafter. It was quite an epiphany.

    I came across this recently and personally find truth to it. I would rate myself as a 6, or high 5. MBTI & Development: INTJ - Cognitive Function Theory. It's an interesting site if one hasn't come across it yet.

    I'm not gloating, merely stating an observation. Feel free to be against it.
    Clumsy thanked this post.

  6. #16
    INTJ - The Scientists

    I'm so grateful social media didn't exist when I was in school...I can't imagine having to deal with that. Why would anyone want to be on display constantly? I don't get these people who put pictures of their kids on facebook constantly.

    To be honest I think that is exactly the INTJ's fatal flaw. We just aren't "joiners (wish I could be that)." We want to belong, but we don't know how to do this and be comfortable in our skin. We don't know how to do this and be ourselves because our identity is so completely based on our independent way of thinking.

    That being said, I think INTJs who are successful either transcend this to the point where they are iconoclastic; or they forever wear a mask or camouflage themselves as something else in order to belong to a group of people. Their extroverted mate drags them out from time to time and they are forced to assimilate.

    High school was over a decade ago, but I remember being very solitary. Occasionally people would come up to me and converse, but I spent most of my weekends and evenings alone. I just never seemed to find that community out there for me and I still haven't. I don't know if it exists.. I wonder how other INTJs have made friends because I just can't seem to hold onto a single friendship. I've resolved myself to living a life completely alone.
    RexMaximus thanked this post.

  7. #17
    INTJ - The Scientists

    Quote Originally Posted by BioSin View Post
    I find it causes a LOT of issues for the people around me yet no immediate issues for me, but very bad long term issues. It only ever becomes an issue for me when other people make it their issue because then it somehow becomes my fault that they're unhappy. Which to me, is absolute madness.

    For instance I can not have people 'help' me with things I didn't ask them for help with; Like putting groceries away. There doesn't need to be two people putting groceries away. In my head it's far less productive to have two people. One person will be trying to have a conversation with me that I genuinely don't care about as it adds zero value or enrichment to my existence. This will annoy me and distract me, making me slower. Then if I opt for the time saver of not giving them directions and then having to explain to them the reasons behind every choice because they can't follow basic instructions, they're going to put things in the wrong spot and when I say wrong spot I mean I've already decided where they're going to go and in what order they should go for maximum fridge effectiveness, so you putting them elsewhere is wrong regardless if the area is 'generally' correct. 'I love you. Now get out of my kitchen.' become a catch phrase from me to my mom.

    But my friends and family, they just want to help and they think, 'PEOPLE LIKE HELPING! So I'm going to help them because that's what friends are for!' No. Go away. Now when you tell people to leave you alone or that you don't want help, they get butt hurt and take it offensively. Because if you decline help it means you don't want them around, and you don't care about their feelings, and their dog Skippy Blue Jr. died when they were 5 and all they wanted to do was help but they couldn't so now they try to help all they can and feeling helpless brings back all these negative emotions.

    Yeah, very sad. I'm going to pretend that I care because I know I'm supposed to ( and that you're either trying to manipulate me into exiting my comfort zone or you're just trying to unload your emotional baggage because you can't handle yourself ), but I don't care because that is all absolutely ridiculous to feel about putting away groceries and you're in the way. I just spent $12 on frozen confections that are melting away because you can't control yourself. I'm putting away groceries while you're Hallmark movie existence is messing it up. Leave, it's easier if you just leave.

    (Edit: As a note, this also causes issues socially in the future because I constantly devalue peoples feelings as being invalid, ridiculous, illogical, unwarranted. So when I feel emotions or feel like talking to someone about them, I immediately start negating my own emotions as I assume everyone feels the way I do and why waste my time talking about it? )

    People REALLY don't like feeling useless or unwanted and I think INTJ's independence 'aids' that feeling. For me, that causes problems with friends and family, pushing people away unintentionally and alienating yourself from 'regular' activities or social norms.

    Long term effect? It's lonely at times and sometimes I find myself envious of people who can so easily allow others to be in their bubbles. On the rare occasions where I do feel uh... 'chatty'? I immediately realize that there is no one on this entire planet I can talk to about -everything- and not a single person who really knows me; Because I have literally never let anyone in.

    I have friends, family, etc. I love them. But none of them know 'me' and there are more things that were never said than things that were said, and I will take them to my grave I'm sure of it.
    Hmm. Maybe they're butthurt because you're being rude...Seriously??

  8. #18
    INTJ

    Quote Originally Posted by Solstice Amarok View Post
    Would you suppose that the INTJ's need for independence overrides their need for unity could be affecting our social status/life?
    Living on my own has the ability of being a big problem because most of the time I feel there is no need to leave the house = zero socialization.
    BUT, I'm extremely big on challenging myself. So I know that I may not see the need/value in going out, but I force myself and try to logically calculate the benefits I will gain from doing this (ex. putting yourself out there, getting into awkward situations, having weird stories in the future to share, etc.) and this helps motivate me to then do it. Especially if I give myself a minimum time limit to stay out or make it a fun challenge of approaching someone that interests me, then I feel accomplished.

    I strongly believe understanding people and their behaviour is a critical asset, which is another reason I justify this.
    Dare and stathamspeacoat thanked this post.

  9. #19

    Quote Originally Posted by Solstice Amarok View Post
    Would you suppose that the INTJ's need for independence overrides their need for unity could be affecting our social status/life?
    i think that's mostly when 'unity' is based on something that conflicts with some inner value of mine. it was very sweaty and wrangly when i was in my teens and twenties, for sure. every time i turned round someone was stepping on one of my toes and i had the flamethrower on permanent standby just trying to get space. like two boats towing each other and connected by a loose rope. someone was always either dragging or tailgating me. lots of collisions and bumping and trying to allocate space.

    i think there's a benefit to it too though. that's because i am so independent i'm very motivated to orchestrate things to be something better than the default leader/follower thing. i engineer a lot of collaboration, basically. so the definition of 'unity' changes a little around me, i think. and at bottom it's because of this thing that i just do not tolerate hierarchies well.


     
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