[INTJ] How the Universe Exists. - Page 2

How the Universe Exists.

Hello Guest! Sign up to join the discussion below...
Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 ... LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 49
Thank Tree45Thanks

This is a discussion on How the Universe Exists. within the INTJ Forum - The Scientists forums, part of the NT's Temperament Forum- The Intellects category; The odds of something happening were 1:1. What happened doesn't reconcile our human centric way of viewing the universe. It ...

  1. #11

    The odds of something happening were 1:1. What happened doesn't reconcile our human centric way of viewing the universe. It functions just fine without a reason.
    Stawker and stathamspeacoat thanked this post.

  2. #12
    ENTP - The Visionaries



    In this clip Roger Penrose talks about how there are three aspects to reality ( the Physical world, mental/spiritual world, and mathematical world) and that people disagree on which is the true nature of reality.

    He doesn't argue which if any, he views as the true nature of reality, more just pointing out that people should be aware of these different viewpoints.

    My belief/view is that the mathematical world is the only one that truly "exists" and the true nature of reality. Nothing exists in any physical sense anymore than variables in a math equation. Everything in this universe can just be considered variables and the universe is simply the math equation that all those variables are a part of. The physical world is simply the result of mathematics, and our thoughts are simply the result of the physical world.

  3. #13

    Quote Originally Posted by desire machine View Post


    In this clip Roger Penrose talks about how there are three aspects to reality ( the Physical world, mental/spiritual world, and mathematical world) and that people disagree on which is the true nature of reality.

    He doesn't argue which if any, he views as the true nature of reality, more just pointing out that people should be aware of these different viewpoints.

    My belief/view is that the mathematical world is the only one that truly "exists" and the true nature of reality. Nothing exists in any physical sense anymore than variables in a math equation. Everything in this universe can just be considered variables and the universe is simply the math equation that all those variables are a part of. The physical world is simply the result of mathematics, and our thoughts are simply the result of the physical world.


    While thinking about this, I couldn't help but think about a snake eating its own tail; if the physical world is the expression of the mathematical world, we could argue that the perspective in which different lifeforms with different neurological processes are bias in determining reality. If the word 'man' means 'middle,' then every incarnation of life believes that their middle perspective is the truth.

    If math is used as the isomorphic language to prove existence in the universe, I would say that math--like any spoken language--is terribly clumsy. I.E "I think therefore I am.." Define "I."

    And now if we define math, we have the same problem even if we were dealing with mathematical proofs; because proofs deal with objectivity in terms of its relationship with the universe--if math cannot exist independently without its counterpart, I can't say that it is the objective truth.

    It's a boring contradiction to simply say that "everything is real" but 'everything real is also fake.' But at the same time, in my first post, when I said that nothing created everything, it makes sense that way to me. Just as I am to think that 'everything and nothing' cannot be explained in terms of a sole objective perspective; those being verbs, nouns, mathematics, etc.

    I enjoyed thinking about this tonight. Thank you.
    ThreadDeath and desire machine thanked this post.

  4. #14

    Ah. Taoism deals with reincarnation and how to live life. I don't believe in reincarnation..unfortunately lol. So, when I was younger, I learned more zen buddhism from my teachers and parents.
    desire machine thanked this post.

  5. #15

    Quote Originally Posted by danielshole View Post
    It made me realise that much of what we understand about the Universe works as a paradox. With black there is white, with good there is evil. With soft, there is hard; If the Big Bang and the Universe represents everything then the thing that created everything is nothing.
    The existence of one thing doesn't necessitate its opposite. For what is the opposite of a human? please don't say it's an animal, nor a God, because neither fit. Things just are. Black and white are two separate colors that appear to be the opposites. Good doesn't give birth to evil, both notions have to be separately established. What created everything is not its contrary. We just don't know what created the universe, as simple as that.

  6. #16
    ENTP - The Visionaries

    Quote Originally Posted by danielshole View Post
    If math is used as the isomorphic language to prove existence in the universe, I would say that math--like any spoken language--is terribly clumsy. I.E "I think therefore I am.." Define "I."

    And now if we define math, we have the same problem even if we were dealing with mathematical proofs; because proofs deal with objectivity in terms of its relationship with the universe--if math cannot exist independently without its counterpart, I can't say that it is the objective truth.
    I'm confused by what you're trying to say here. I don't know why you think that "that math--like any spoken language--is terribly clumsy. I.E "I think therefore I am.." Define "I."" ...Math to me doesn't seem clumsy at all. I don't understand why you would have that perception. Math is very orderly logical and entirely objective etc.

    and I don't understand why you would think "math cannot exist independently without its counterpart" do you mean the physical universe as it's counterpart?

    To me math appears to be an objective truth that would exist the same in any universe and regardless of what universe and physical reality exists.

  7. #17
    ENTP - The Visionaries

    Quote Originally Posted by Stawker View Post
    The existence of one thing doesn't necessitate its opposite. For what is the opposite of a human? please don't say it's an animal, nor a God, because neither fit. Things just are. Black and white are two separate colors that appear to be the opposites. Good doesn't give birth to evil, both notions have to be separately established. What created everything is not its contrary. We just don't know what created the universe, as simple as that.
    Words are complex things and contain many aspects and symbolism... the word human encompasses and triggers many symbolism- what it is that makes something human. The concept of an abstract human-ness or humanity certainly has an opposite and only exists in in relation to it's opposite for which we use the word "inhuman".

    As far as thinking about a human begin as a specific organism: A human as a specific organism is a complex concept that is composed of many more basic concepts which at their core when you break them down only exist in relation to their opposite. Alive vs dead, organic vs inorganic, warm blooded vs cold blooded, lactating vs non lactation, sex reproducing vs non sex reproducing, etc.

    It might seem like a cop-out to list simple negations as opposites like non-lactating ... but that what opposites are, the negation of something.

    The idea that everything at it's core is the result of relationships does not mean that every concept has per say an opposite because concepts can be complex composed of large combinations of more basic aspects, but at their core are all aspects when you break them down just describe relationships and nothing in themselves by themselves.

    No man is an island ... nor is any concept.

    Also black and white aren't just colors. Black is the absence of light and white is the presence of all wavelengths of light... arguing that they're not opposites is like arguing that "all" and "none" aren't opposites... also other colors have opposites as described by the color wheel.


    ...actually to be honest I don't know how much I believe all the opposite shiz. I think things do only exist in relation to other things.. in terms of physical reality and the existence of objects and physical phenomena is just the interaction between them. But I don't know about the whole opposite stuff. The whole concept of opposites seems a kinda of subjective thing to be doing. I think it could potentially work for anything by breaking down any concept into components that have opposites... but just because it works for some stuff doesn't mean it works for all stuff... I don't think you could come up with any proof that it works for all stuff... and a lot of the the opposites and ways you break down stuff might seem weak and debatable ... but perhaps most significantly is what is the point of describing everything in terms of opposites? I don't know if this actually gives any real insight into anything. I think the insight people have taken away from this sort of thing in the past is less any insight into physics and such and rather just helping them to take the good w/ the bad and better live in harmony.
    ThreadDeath and danielshole thanked this post.

  8. #18

    Quote Originally Posted by Stawker View Post
    The existence of one thing doesn't necessitate its opposite. For what is the opposite of a human? please don't say it's an animal, nor a God, because neither fit. Things just are. Black and white are two separate colors that appear to be the opposites. Good doesn't give birth to evil, both notions have to be separately established. What created everything is not its contrary. We just don't know what created the universe, as simple as that.
    I can see what you're trying to say. But I also must point out the dichotomy of saying that. Using your examples: I don't think the opposite of a human is a dog--that's my perspective. But you never defined what a human was. If we reduce a human as an anthropomorphic image, I could simply say a rock is the opposite of a human. It's a little silly to ask that; kinda like asking what the opposite of toilet paper is. We all know what the opposite of toilet paper is.

    As for color, and good and evil: I can say hate is the opposite of love, while also stating that the opposite of love is apathy, and have both statements be correct.

    Black is in-fact the opposite of white, which would automatically make white the opposite of black. The fact the different colors can be considered the opposite of black if you define black as the absence of color, and the other colors in the spectrum as the presence of color, doesn't mean that white is not the opposite of black, it just means multiple things can be the opposite of black. That's just what happens when our views as human are anthropic and if what we know is relative(which seems to be your understanding of the universe.)

    What I am trying to describe is not exactly what you think it is. You're talking about what we know and what we don't know. I'm trying to say what is--just as mathematical proofs neither use inductive or empirical reasoning.

  9. #19

    Quote Originally Posted by desire machine View Post
    I'm confused by what you're trying to say here. I don't know why you think that "that math--like any spoken language--is terribly clumsy. I.E "I think therefore I am.." Define "I."" ...Math to me doesn't seem clumsy at all. I don't understand why you would have that perception. Math is very orderly logical and entirely objective etc.

    and I don't understand why you would think "math cannot exist independently without its counterpart" do you mean the physical universe as it's counterpart?

    To me math appears to be an objective truth that would exist the same in any universe and regardless of what universe and physical reality exists.
    I'm thankful for this. In my previous post I mentioned some components of mathematics: deductive and empirical arguments. I think what's interesting are mathematical proofs, because they state objective truths.

    What I mean is that proofs describe everything in the container, but they don't describe the container itself. Hopefully that makes what I tried to say more clear. I'd love to talk about this some more, though.

    I once was taking an UBER home from Los Angeles to Orange County. The ride was about 50 minutes long and I hailed the ride at about 2am. The driver was a Caucasian man in his 50s or so. His Hyundai had an unsavory smell, he drove a dreadful 50 miles an hour on the highway and he was meekish when communicating--never using more than one or 2 syllable words in his short sentences--he was odd. But I struck up conversation with this man anyway and asked him if he were a math teacher--just a feeling I had at the time. He said he was. He started to talk about how beautiful proofs were and how maths exists in the Universe as a extension of language. I never took math too seriously when I was younger and regret it. I was more into language and writing for some reason.
    desire machine thanked this post.

  10. #20

    Quote Originally Posted by desire machine View Post
    ...actually to be honest I don't know how much I believe all the opposite shiz. I think things do only exist in relation to other things.. in terms of physical reality and the existence of objects and physical phenomena is just the interaction between them. But I don't know about the whole opposite stuff. The whole concept of opposites seems a kinda of subjective thing to be doing. I think it could potentially work for anything by breaking down any concept into components that have opposites... but just because it works for some stuff doesn't mean it works for all stuff... I don't think you could come up with any proof that it works for all stuff... and a lot of the the opposites and ways you break down stuff might seem weak and debatable ... but perhaps most significantly is what is the point of describing everything in terms of opposites? I don't know if this actually gives any real insight into anything. I think the insight people have taken away from this sort of thing in the past is less any insight into physics and such and rather just helping them to take the good w/ the bad and better live in harmony.
    You're right in thinking that I deem it all a cop out. And this last paragraph you've written, the fact that it provides no insight whatsoever, is the deal breaker for me. Not only does this idea require us to change our definitions of things only to grant them opposites, it also doesn't show us anything valuable by doing so. And to go to such lengths as to apply this idea to accrue the origins of the universe is an outright insult to universe firstly and then to science.

    @danielshole

    If you wish to speak only of 'what is', then that by itself excludes the notion of all things having opposites. In any case, this mystical mode of thinking is beyond me. If I want to know the origins of the universe, then I know I have decades, maybe centuries, of scientific work in front of me rather than finding analogies as shortcuts to my goal. If I wish to know about life and death, those again are very broad topics that cannot be done justice to in a few lines, or with the help of a few analogies. Bottom line is, there's still too much we have to learn before we can go anywhere with these musings.
    desire machine and danielshole thanked this post.


     
Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Does our universe take refuge inside a black hole of another universe?
    By Kevinaswell in forum Science and Technology
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 03-16-2017, 11:22 AM
  2. Why do you think we, or anything, exists?
    By How Do You KNOW in forum Critical Thinking & Philosophy
    Replies: 31
    Last Post: 02-18-2011, 03:16 PM
  3. This still exists?!
    By ilphithra in forum General Chat
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 07-12-2010, 10:07 AM
  4. A new giant clue that helps explain why the universe exists.
    By Kevinaswell in forum Science and Technology
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 05-20-2010, 11:38 AM

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:09 AM.
Information provided on the site is meant to complement and not replace any advice or information from a health professional.
© 2014 PersonalityCafe
 

SEO by vBSEO 3.6.0