[niki]

I've just read and commented on a quite interesting thread here, that basically, I am reminded by the OP there that the "rest of the world" people other than our Type, unfortunately, might perhaps don't care so much about 'saving the world, humanity' or that kind of 'bigger picture' things.
Instead, I've found the reality that majority of humans seem to care more about acquiring more material things, more money (with NO other purposes often than just to get more & more material things), then as easily 'brainwashed' by the popular media nowadays: we 'entertain' ourselves with all kind of "lower-consciousness" things like sex, porns, violence-games, mindless gossiping & chatting, etc etc.

These all really somehow really makes me stop, and ponder quite hard this question:
Is humanity pretty much..hopeless, in the 'grand scheme' of things?

Will humanity (NOT the planet) probably go extinct, due to our majority of -sadly- ignorant & stupid deeds we're doing, to humanity, environment, and the planet?

And I don't mean to brag or anything like that,
but I do think it would be so tragic, if people like us, who perhaps DO think & care for the 'bigger picture' of things and how to fix' em,..might also probably go extinct along with those approx. 80% of these 'stupid' and 'ignorant' human beings too..(well, unless if there's somehow a 'loop hole' that we can go into 'another world' or that kind of thing..but I also can't entirely count nor depend my "real life" on it, sadly..I'm still living in this "real world", along with those 80%).

So..what do you guys say/think about this?
Is humanity pretty much..hopeless? (and those Aliens or 'advanced/higher beings' out there probably will laugh at our history & existence, like we're some kind of 'failed experiment' of Creation or something..)
or is there still a HOPE, even if it's only a little?.. where, from where though?..
thx.

[Luke]

Sometimes I think that humans are incredible. The amount of knowledge we have attained and the things we have accomplished are mind blowing. In the grand scheme of things we exist on this tiny spec of dust in an almost endless void, and yet from this spec of dust our intelligence has stretched out into the depths of the universe.

Other times I almost feel contempt and strong anger towards humanity. But what is most frustrating is that when we are angry at humanity we must admit that we are also human. So if we are noticing flaws in most people we meet, it's very likely that we also possess flaws of your own. It's very hard to sit on a pedestal and judge the rest of humanity, because eventually we will all fall (or be pushed) off!

[Bago]

I personally think that you should find a religion, and start to study it. It will answer the kind of questions that you are asking about. There are good and then there are bad in this world. Also, the world moves in cycle. Understanding all this, and that there is an "All Mighty" somewhere up there, allows you to then understand what your own role is in life. Each of us are indeed destined to be a part of this big picture. Yet, "how, what, and why" is the big question. You need to focus your life soon, and this question will be answered when you start doing that.

[WhatIMeantToSayWas]

Your grand scheme is your own. What makes your big picture ideals any more or less valid than the ideals of other people. Nothing.
You necessarily view your ideals as right, but dont discount that others do the same. Here we have a community thats likely to agree with you on the virtue of a big picture focus of ideals. But equally theres probably some ESTJs out there despairing at our inability to accept their ideals and approach.
There is no grand scheme.
Humanity is hopeless because it is not capable of hope. Only the individual is.
Stop searching for external meaning, certainly dont let anyone tell you that you fit into some other "scheme" of things, where any ideals are not your own. If you go searching for meaning like that and dont find it would the end of the world matter to you?
Why?... Those are your material, human, "lower consciousness" ideals. Embrace them, they are necessarily your only ideals.

Cheer up, all your posts are so sad niki, and nice quote in your sig ^.^, thats the sad part about being human, limitations.

[Mythographeas]

I personally think you should steer clear of religion altogether lest you find priests breathing down your neck, or if you really need one, just do what comes to you intuitively rather than reading any books or going to any temples. If you want to answer your questions with falsehoods, you'd be better off making up your own falsehoods, the ones that work best for you, than purchasing someone else's and selling yourself into a manipulative power structure.

I don't think we are hopeless. Far from it, I think we're on the cusp of perfecting ourselves and correcting nature's mistakes. As we accelerate towards and past boundaries of intelligence beyond which the future can scarcely be imagined, we may need to be vigilant and proactive ensuring that structures are in place to see that technology is put to use and distributed fairly. Even if it's not, though, we'll survive. Perhaps in fewer numbers or perhaps not in a way we'd like to, but in a hundred years or so, it'll take more than a global environmental catastrophe to uproot us.

The majority of people aren't stupid or vapid or whatever, or at least, they're not incapable of being otherwise. They're trapped in a maze of power relations, obedience regulated by culture. Remember who the people you're talking about are - broadly speaking, the servants of the ruling class. Few of the tiny proportion of the world's population to whom most of its wealth belongs are lacking in consciousness. They are acquisitive, yes, but not ignorant. Their consciousness is not a threat to their power. Conversely, class consciousness among the working class is a tremendous threat to their power and is, as such, deliberately prevented from developing - not by a concerted effort of conspirators, but emergently, the system producing the mechanisms of control naturally that it requires to maintain itself, such as the media and acquisitive culture of which you speak.

These systems, the social structures in which people live - the social structures of capitalism - are to blame for the human failings you lament, and would see more surely than any other that we should remain incapable of escaping them through ingenuity.

Humanity is hopeless because it is not capable of hope. Only the individual is.

But that individualism, the refusal to consider oneself a part of a whole, is precisely the source of all of the human ailments at which the OP despairs. We are not isolated, nervous beings existing in a consequential vacuum. We are individuals, but we don't act exclusively in our capacity as individuals, nor can we ever. Like it or not, we're members of a hierarchy of numerous groups, and those groups can act collectively. Individual striving leads to greed and stupidity, while the striving of a class leads to the elevation of the ignorant and improverished to learning and plenty.

Hope lies in two places, then. First, it lies in our boundless capacity to find solutions to any problem - our creativity and ingenuity, our ability to conceive of an ideal and work out how to attain it. Secondly, it lies in our humanity itself, our flexibility and adaptability, that permits us to change as our circumstances change, such that it's conceivable that there are circumstances in which we're all the noblest of the noble.

On the related subject of your signature quote, if you don't want to be human, live long enough not to be and make sure you can not be when the time comes. :P

[Orpheus]

we 'entertain' ourselves with all kind of "lower-consciousness" things like sex, porns, violence-games, mindless gossiping & chatting, etc etc.

I don't intend to be critical... but this worldview is closed minded. People do things for a reason, and though it may often be difficult to relate, it does not make it a bad thing.

I agree that most people are not interested in the welfare of humanity. I'd argue that most people don't understand what's good for humanity, and that includes both you and I. We're not hopeless because we'll either do something, pass our time here, and inevitably: both.

This isn't a bad thing, nor is it good. It just is. I don't predict when the human race will end, but I do know that it will, and death is not to be feared.

Understand through these narrow lens of what we understand of typing that it is difficult for me, as an INTJ, to say this, but I believe it wholeheartedly: The ideals we place upon ourselves of social order, cohesion, morality, logic and efficiency... they are ideal. But they're, at best, a temporary state and we may very well never see such a utopia. If we can, then trust me, I would put my heart into building it.

Otherwise, I suppose we just have to smile and enjoy our lives as we can be sure that tomorrow is no worse than today.

[Michael82]

it depends because mother earth will not accept our bullshit much longer

we will then come before our existential question if we want to exist or not. and then we will make a decision. to be honest, that moment has already arrived because nobody can deny anymore that we will go extinct at some point if the global population keeps growing.

the answer of course is that we want to keep existing, but, the question then becomes: how are we going to work with this? I'm not sure how but i am sure we need to control the global population, now, or at some point. there is no other way, because the processing of natural resources influences ecological environments. Humans currently look away from those environments and it seems that we will always do. now if we change and become "sustainable" but the population keeps growing we will get a shrinking model where we can do less and less and less. it simply is not going to be the way we want to live our lives.

I just keep saying it: if we want to end up like a bunch of dinosaurs going extinct due to drastically changing ecological systems which supports animal and human life, then that's fine, I don't care nor will I when I am dead (not saying it will happen within a 100 years). But I AM saying that anyone of you saying that it will be alright or it will happen inevitably, are basically worth nothing more then that dinosaur gnawing on his tree.

Therefore people calling environmentalists stupid/nerds/whatever are pretty funny because they are about as simple as this old species in our ecological environment in history, yes, that bunch of dinosaurs.

Now this change WILL be the driver for humanity because now that we have seen all trends in human history one cannot deny that becoming sarcastic/ironic/cynical/whatever does not add up to supporting each other in being part of the ecological system. We have to be aware that working together and integrating with each other is the only way for us to survive.

From that racist until that rapist until that murderer until that politician, banker, CEO, everybody.

If we keep looking away and keep putting people into corners we will continue living upon greed that will keep going to marginalize and in the end will just result into destroying the environment.

I know it is not that simple but the result will be ending up like our ancestor the lovely dinosaur.

So, humanity will be "a" cause of survival in the future. :)

[ii V I]

Everything ends,
Act for love in the present. (If you are too busy analyzing it, you certainly are not acting in it)
Who knows? It could preserve the future...

[Humilis Curator]

No, we are never hopeless. We operate in a world where our minds are restricted by what we know and by what we are conscious of and shown. The possibilities are endless only if you remove yourself from the way we have been indoctrinated to think and operate.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_BisAUOY9kF...0/the_cave.gif (posted a link because it is a huge picture and didn't wanna post a ginormous picture lol)



^ Plato's allegory of the cave

[WhatIMeantToSayWas]

But that individualism, the refusal to consider oneself a part of a whole, is precisely the source of all of the human ailments at which the OP despairs. We are not isolated, nervous beings existing in a consequential vacuum. We are individuals, but we don't act exclusively in our capacity as individuals, nor can we ever. Like it or not, we're members of a hierarchy of numerous groups, and those groups can act collectively. Individual striving leads to greed and stupidity, while the striving of a class leads to the elevation of the ignorant and improverished to learning and plenty.

Id think it more nervous to submit to a "group will" that is not your own. We are members of groups, those groups can act collectively, but they cannot think collectively. Their acts are driven by the coincident wills of the individuals comprising it. Find a group you fit in. Individual striving, greed and stupidity is all there is. Greed is the fulfilment of self interest, doesn't mean you cant have coincident interests with other people. I leave in stupidity because our ideals change over time, and we can be sure we'll hit a moving target. In retrospect we are all stupid.

Hope does not lie in OUR boundless capacity to solve problems. Because WE have no problems, we can't.

I can never be sure i am human, i can never consider myself part of the whole with certainty.