[INFP] Religion and sustainable development - Page 2

Religion and sustainable development

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This is a discussion on Religion and sustainable development within the INFP Forum - The Idealists forums, part of the NF's Temperament Forum- The Dreamers category; @ FearAndTrembling Jung is not the end-all-and-be-all of religious knowledge. Try coming up with your own statements instead of parroting ...

  1. #11
    INFP - The Idealists

    @FearAndTrembling
    Jung is not the end-all-and-be-all of religious knowledge. Try coming up with your own statements instead of parroting his words.

    The nature of religion in and of itself is deceptive - It is willingly believing in an idea that is not based on evidence or critical thought, just as Jung points out in that quote you use. I have a moral opposition to religious belief and I'm just as entitled to it as any believer is, so I'm not sure where all this hostility is coming from, but you're really making yourself come across as quite irrational.
    I was trying to get the perspectives and opinions of other INFP's, not start a debate about whether or not religion is good, or whether or not my irreligious belief is valid or not.

    2. That sentence didn't make sense. What alphabet soup designation? If you gave me some sort of evidence or logic in favor of your position rather than simply calling me an idiot, this conversation might have actually gone somewhere, but you can't seem to be able to get over your ego enough to form a coherent argument.
    3. Religion is destructive because it perpetuates a culture of non-critical thinkers. Religion is illogical - It is a belief based on faith rather than evidence, and people actively protect and staunchly defend their right to believe in something for no reason at all, other than somebody, at some point, told them they should. Society can never hope to advance without critical thinking - It is a lack of critical thinking that causes racism, wars, environmental destruction, overdoses... Critical thinking is imperative to the existence of humans as a species, and religion fosters a culture that blatantly opposes critical thinking. That is why it is always destructive. Look at the bigger picture - Any good done by this blood drive down the street from you does nothing to offset the mass destruction that has occurred at the hands of the church.
    4. I never said anything about any of this at all? It's clear you're not even reading my posts.
    5. Yeah, you could only possibly be trolling me right now.

    @TheTwin
    I'm not trying to indoctrinate anyone. You're drawing illusory correlations. Sharing my view and my perspective =/= trying to get other people to hop on my bandwagon.
    FaveteLinguis and Seph thanked this post.

  2. #12
    INFP - The Idealists

    What a simple excuse. One could argue that the pure act of discussing things might be considered advertisement for ones ideas, but I won't go this way here. ;)

    Lets prove your assumption: You say you didn't try to indoctrinate people. Well, I won't accuse you of doing this consciously (this I can not prove) but nonetheless you did do it. You diminished the believe in god (or any other deity in that regard) to pure indoctrination by institutions like the church. You said institutions make you think you need to believe in a god (as advertisers make you need useless gadgets). This is nothing different then saying "If you believe in god [or anything at all] you fell for it like morons fall for stupid advertisement on TV." And since you don't believe in a god (as you stated) you automatically put yourself on a pedestal ("I don't believe in god, therefore I didn't fell for it, therefore I am a bit more clever.").

    Or put another way (as this nonsense can be found in other parts of your texts, too): Your assumption that institutions are the cause of the believe in god (as they make you need it) is wrong. Sure they do this. But this is not (as you stated) the only reason people believe in god (or anything other). I wouldn't even count this as one of the top 5 or top 10 reasons to believe in something. And believing it is the only reason deprives people of their own very human nature, for every human needs a reason to live. It is no wonder that suicides are increasing in a world that is getting more and more secular and that deprives people of any good reasons to live (Science says humans are nothing more then biology, neurons, learned behaviour, unconscious drives and whatnot; politics and economy says we are nothing more then the output we give [no output = no worth] and make you believe in the value of money [which in and of itself has no value at all]). Of course you can build "your own" value system without believing in anything (to make it more simple we just neglect that, as Confucianism states - which isn't a religion by the way, religious culture always finds its way into non-believers' minds). If we are lucky "your own" value system is based on a premise that is benefiting for everyone. Lets just briefly look from another angle: Some people reach the peak of human existence and morality, some of which may just have followed their own value system, but almost all describe this experience as enlightenment (religious expression) or as "being one with god" (the psychologist might say "being one with the [transcendental] self").

    But I get a bit carried away. I can not see how you did not try to indoctrinate us.

    Edit
    And to reinstate what I said before: It is quite arrogant to blame someone for something you yourself do.

  3. #13
    Unknown


    Much of this discussion seems more like knee-jerking religion than actually addressing the issue of the relationship between religions and sustainable development. I mean one of the founding fathers of the concept of "sustainable development" was overtly religious and was deeply inspired by religious teachings. You could start there. Or addressing the religious principle of stewardship.

  4. #14
    INFP - The Idealists

    Quote Originally Posted by Meowmixmuffin
    I was trying to get the perspectives and opinions of other INFP's, not start a debate about whether or not religion is good, or whether or not my irreligious belief is valid or not.
    You asked for it, whether explicitly or not.

    3. Religion is destructive because it perpetuates a culture of non-critical thinkers. Religion is illogical - It is a belief based on faith rather than evidence, and people actively protect and staunchly defend their right to believe in something for no reason at all, other than somebody, at some point, told them they should. Society can never hope to advance without critical thinking - It is a lack of critical thinking that causes racism, wars, environmental destruction, overdoses... Critical thinking is imperative to the existence of humans as a species, and religion fosters a culture that blatantly opposes critical thinking.
    Why don't you search Wikipedia for a list of important Christian scientists, philosophers, or mathematicians? How about just among Catholic clergy? Jesuits? No matter how you narrow it down, you'll find a rather intimidating list of pioneering scientists and fiercely intelligent thinkers.

    Since you apparently weren't aware of it, I should also point out that the modern university is a specifically Catholic invention, and most modern educational systems that we have was pioneered from religious institutions. During the middle ages, the church was more or less the soul bastion of intellectual preservation after the fall of Rome, and nearly all of the records we have of that period were written by monks and clergy, who kept massive libraries. These were the most educated people of the time. They went on to found such universities as Oxford, Cambridge, and the University of Paris, which I'm assuming you've heard of. Medicine also made notable advances during this period thanks to the university system. There were functional hospitals in Europe during the 14th century.

    The entire notion that the middle ages were a period of cultural and scientific stagnation has, or that they were a regress from the heights of antiquity, has been thoroughly refuted by modern scholarship. If you want a list of books to back that up, I'll happily oblige. The progress of the Renaissance was the fruits of the middle ages. The best artists and brightest minds of this period flourished not only near the seat of the Catholic church's power, but during the heyday of its power.

    But the positive influence of religious institutions on modern thinking doesn't end there. The first rationales for human rights, the scientific method, trade, and international law were also more or less theological in their groundwork. The Anglican church alone has produced more great paleontologists from its clergy (both before and after Darwin) than any other religious institution ever has, and probably more than any institution, period.

    Any good done by this blood drive down the street from you does nothing to offset the mass destruction that has occurred at the hands of the church.
    The Catholic church is more or less the largest non-profit charity in the world. It feeds, clothes, houses, treats, and educates more people than any other organization. It donates millions of dollars annually to charities in third world countries--building schools, orphanages, churches, nursing homes, hospitals, and other buildings that help to make the communities better places. Religiously funded hospitals save the US millions in tax dollars every year, in addition to the people served in these hospitals. These are good things, and they are the legacy of a religion that teaches men to love their neighbors as themselves, and to the love the goodness of the world, because of the god they worship and the example he provided them.

    But of course you'll ignore or downplay all of that because it doesn't tie into your anti-religious narrative, in which the net legacy of Christianity apparently consists of nothing except for the crusades, the inquisition, the Gallileo incident, the reign of the Borgia pope, and creationism. This is a dishonest and ultimately faith-based narrative.
    TheTwin and Fievel thanked this post.

  5. #15
    INFP - The Idealists

    It's funny that I came across this thread because my girlfriend and I were chatting yesterday about how much better things would be if all of the religious leaders in the world told their followers to look after the environment.

    I'm an agnostic/atheist but was raised Catholic so for the purpose of this argument I'll focus more on Catholicism/Christianity. I think that given their belief system, it's total arrogance for any Christian to not care about the environment. Believers generally believe in God as being the creator of everything and worthy of being respected, loved and worshiped. If God created Earth and everything on it, shouldn't it be respected and passionately defended and looked after? I think it would be a huge slap in the face for God to lovingly create the planet and everything on it just to watch his creations destroy everything that he made. It's a bit like your parents spending years making an amazing birthday present for you, only for you to throw it to the ground and break it. I see so much of the "oh well, God will fix it" attitude from Christians regarding the planet and I just find it so unbelievably entitled and arrogant. I don't believe in God but if I did, I would make sure to respect his other creations. I respect the environment of my own accord but I feel like religion should give people an even stronger reason.
    strangestdude and TheTwin thanked this post.

  6. #16
    Unknown Personality

    Science isn't a normative field so I don't see where some of you are coming from with "science not giving any reasons to live". Also it tells something when in that case you're basically comparing religion's viability to nothing.

  7. #17
    INFP - The Idealists

    Quote Originally Posted by Seph View Post
    Science isn't a normative field so I don't see where some of you are coming from with "science not giving any reasons to live".
    Since my last post somewhat went in that direction I feel like replying.

    It isn't the task of science to give life a meaning. Some may still find it does (I think Feynman could be one who believed this), but it isn't its main purpose.
    What scientist too often do is reduce everything to "Nothing more then..."

    Biologists may tell us how we are nothing more then clever animals.
    Neurologists may tell us we are nothing more then what our neurones dictate us (one experiment even concluded we don't have a free will, which I believe is nonsense).
    Psychologists may tell us we are nothing more then unconscious urges and drives or just plain learned behaviour.
    Everyone may be right in but one concern: We are more then that. We are everything combined and much more.

    With science gaining (and therefore taking meaning in life) and religion losing influence in peoples' lives more and more people suffer of noogenic depression (existential crisis) and more and more people are committing suicide.
    But to clarify some things: I am not saying we need less science. I am saying scientist (and media who spreads the news) should think before reducing everything to "nothing more then." Also I believe they are exaggerating the importance of their corresponding field of science if they reduce us.

  8. #18
    Unknown Personality

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTwin View Post
    With science gaining (and therefore taking meaning in life) and religion losing influence in peoples' lives more and more people suffer of noogenic depression (existential crisis) and more and more people are committing suicide.
    I'm not sure where you're getting the idea of religion decline being a causation to suidice rate rising.

    And no, scientists aren't moral leaders, never have been and never will. In that case they'd be practicing anything but science. In this day and age it's starting to be really ridicilous do be despaired from scientific discoveries.

  9. #19
    INFP - The Idealists

    Quote Originally Posted by Seph View Post
    I'm not sure where you're getting the idea of religion decline being a causation to suidice rate rising.

    And no, scientists aren't moral leaders, never have been and never will. In that case they'd be practicing anything but science. In this day and age it's starting to be really ridicilous do be despaired from scientific discoveries.
    I never said that a decline of religious believe is the cause of more suicides. I said that no one offers a substitute for the place religion formerly took. For some money, fame and prestige are trustworthy to be worshipped (or soccer...). But this are rather meagre substitutions compared to a deeply felt believe.

    I also didn't say that scientists are moral leaders. I said science (sometimes) deprives us of meaning.

    (Spoiler contains lots of depressing thoughts - may not be suitable for someone who is in danger of committing suicide)
     
    Or asked this way: What meaning does life have if there is no god (or afterlife or rebirth or whatnot), no free will (as neuroscience has 'shown' and as biologists do confirm [hormones, brain chemistry,...]) and that we are fated by our unconsciousness or that we are nothing more then a machine programmed by our past behaviours etc. What meaning is there if we are just a little nothing in a vast society that behaves just like sociologist have predicted? On more extreme ends: Why live if we are nothing more then the chemical elements we are mate of or if we are nothing more then quarks and strings? Why live in an almost boundless universe where our little blue pearl is nothing more then one out of billions of billions of other blue pearls that might be out there?


    Or for short: Religions are withdrawing and leaving us without meaning, science offers nothing in return (and true it doesn't have to) and often reduces us even more and there are only meagre substitutions like the run for money or fame.

    I am also not saying one needs religion for meaning. But those without religion have to find some other form of meaning. And yes some may find meaning in scientific discoveries (ZEN PENCILS - 42. NEIL deGRASSE TYSON: The most astounding fact). And heck yes I can see the beauty in scientific discoveries (even in mathematics!) which is why it angers me even more if some shrink everything (especially us) to the littlest of the tiniest bits of knowledge they just gained.

    *Edit*
    A little extra I found on the linked site: http://zenpencils.com/comic/100-carl...pale-blue-dot/

  10. #20
    Unknown Personality

    You're just repeating yourself and still not giving any profound reason to go back to religion as a foundation of as to 'why live'.


     
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