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4K views 28 replies 10 participants last post by  Kyuubixcel 
#1 ·
As of recently I have made a personal discovery about the origins of how and why I have a certain fear. And it also ties in with the Enneagram 4 labeled fear "that they have no identity or personal significance". Generally, with "friends" (both close and acquaintance) I tend to hide away or become afraid of sharing my true thoughts and being completely honest with them if there's a problem (unless they manage to hurt me to the extent that i just cut them off). I become fearful of their reaction before it even happens, so i withhold my thoughts and continue acting as if everything is okay. It's not only the fear that they will be upset at my honesty, but the fear that I would also begin to hate myself afterwards as well. I didn't realize there was a term for this as well (even though i knew it as a common term i never understood its meaning). And that term is "Shame". And while shame is the major factor of why i feel guilt for wanting to speak out, as well as feeling it for not wanting to speak out, I had also come to realize this was also connected to my upbringing. I learned in the article mentioned below, that most scapegoats have high empathy and sensitivity at an early age, which causes them to absorb all of the projections of their parents, thus causing the birth of self hatred/possibly depression. It also informed me that as they continue to go into social relationships, that they will also absorb the projections of what other people think of them as well. For me this explains a helluva lot, of why i fear getting close to certain people and their impact on me if i either

A. Do something wrong.
Or
B. Be honest with them.

I'm personally terrified of being completely honest with someone i'm not sure of, as any kind of minor negative backlash towards me can cause me to go in a state of guilt for a long time. So instead I internalize everything that bothers me about them, and I simply play my part in this "friendship" until i have a reason to avoid them or doorslam. And this is different from constructive criticism, i'm talking about the consequences that may occur if they end up being hurt by my honesty. While their take of it may not be my problem afterward I still hold the shame of what I have done to another human being, even if it was the "right" thing to do rather than continue being dishonest with them and put on the fake persona. I fear hurting them..but I also fear hurting myself. It's a double edged sword and the ending remains the same regardless of which way i act. I'm fearful of absorbing any new projections one might have of me (specifically negative) which has caused a spiral of paranoia in 2/3 of my friendships, even if they may not take it personal. And before I end this, I am not intentionally hurtful when i'm honest, as I still try to be polite and respectful of the person that i'm talking to. I am also aware that they can be positive in their response, but i'm practically crippled by my fear, especially because of social experiences that didn't go well.
I was curious if there's anyone with similar issues that came to this realization?

Oh and here's the article links that I read, very fascinating reads.

Why family scapegoats become lifelong victims. | Lucky Otter's Haven

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/traversing-the-inner-terrain/201101/the-scapegoat-identity

http://psychcentral.com/lib/shame-the-core-of-addiction-and-codependency/

P.S. If anyone is curious of my tritype it's 4w5 5w4 1w9
 
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#2 ·
I understand how you feel I think - I haven't read the links yet, but I will when I have some time to do it. I am sorry that you feel that way about being totally open with your friends. I can relate, though. Whenever I am with people, I have a mental dialogue going on of every negative thought I imagine they could be thinking in response to what I say and do. It's constant. I argue with myself mentally about everything I say from the perspective of them - does that make any sense? I'm also an INFJ type 4 enneagram - and I also absorb guilt very easily and can experience extreme anxiety and guilt in response to criticism or conflict. I really hope things will get better and you will find someone you can share with!
 
#11 ·
Take as long as you need :). Yup, that's exactly how my brain functions when i'm around people. Luckily I don't get anxiety unless I feel forced to respond to something rude or disrespectful towards me. I have had that on a few occasions with each ending up with me walking away before i had emotional diarrhea (building anger or tears) and contemplating what was said for days on top of self hatred and carrying projections of what was said about me.
 
#3 ·
I don't really think this is enneagram based (I am a 6w5 with some of those challenges initially ), have you considered that you may be a HSP @Kyuubixcel (Are You Highly Sensitive?) or what your emotional attachment style is (What is Your Attachment Style?).

I don't wish to discourage conversations but context and knowledge are everything - they help us define our communication and be clearer about our questions.
 
#10 · (Edited)
Yeah it's not enneagram based but I think our response to certain things as we grow up are kind of what determine our enneagram in a way (not saying it's a definite but it certainly holds some truth). I feel like I didn't word that right but whatever lol. EDIT: It also connects to the fear because my personal significance is practically based on the projections that I receive, which means that my self-perceived identity in a sense relies on the very projections that i'm afraid of.

I'm definitely an HSP, i'm not sure to what extent though. My early attachment style would definitely be most identified as avoidant, but I seem to have snippets of all of them that I can relate to. For the adult attachment patterns I have dismissive (but not emotionally removed from myself and others), preoccupied definitely except i'm not clingy or overdependent, and somewhat fearful-avoidant in the sense of childhood memories being triggered.

Yeah, I see what you mean. I'm not always clear in my vocabulary unfortunately.
 
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#6 ·
Assertiveness has a personality dimension to it, but it is also something we all as people have some element of. Early experiences of being assertive and not having that respected can create work for us to do later on in life.

What I have experienced around this issue is that in adulthood, if you are working on becoming more assertive, then people who see that as a threat to your current dynamic with them may not be too happy with you. People who are healthy themselves, and assert themselves in order to promote co-operation and sincerity in their relationships will be relieved that you are speaking up with integrity; others may want you to keep quiet and go along with them.

I believe it is really important for INFJs and HSPs to develop healthy boundaries with people which requires assertiveness. It gets easier and easier the more that you do it. Do you have people in your life that encourage you to share your thoughts? If so, build on that. If not, don't worry. Some of us did this work alone for a long time and it is possible to do it without any support from people at times.
 
#12 ·
I feel that I attract people with these kind of power dynamics, in that being assertive can be problematic to their feelings. I also understand this to some extent that if I bother someone unintentionally and they become irritable, I feel hurt that I was an irritation for them and become more self aware/insecure, which eventually leads to withdrawing for feeling like a detriment to others. But my parents are very similar in that they do not like when i become assertive and try to defend myself. But at the same time they dislike when I self deprecate by apathetically accepting what I've done with no attempts at trying to defend myself and move on. My family has odd power dynamics as well but I know that they're connected to how I function too.

I only have one person in my life that I can be completely honest with, who happens to be a type 4 ENFP, but it took over a year of arguments and being completely blunt (in anger) to actually begin to find acceptance with one another. He's probably my closest friend and I don't see him/speak with him that much because of college now. I may see him on breaks but that's about it. But the thing is that neither of us are assertive unless we're angry, so in a sense he's not a good example to use because he's like me.

I have tried being assertive before but it just comes off as me disliking the other person or being angry at them..and I don't like that, because I know how they feel afterwards. And being politely assertive doesn't work because they don't take me seriously.
 
#7 ·
....

And before I end this, I am not intentionally hurtful when i'm honest, as I still try to be polite and respectful of the person that i'm talking to. I am also aware that they can be positive in their response, but i'm practically crippled by my fear, especially because of social experiences that didn't go well.

I was curious if there's anyone with similar issues that came to this realization?

....
Situation could at least partly be due to nutrition. One thing is getting more protein, like from eggs, meats, fish. Also, no low-fat stuff. Your body needs fats, especially your brain. (Definitely, no diet sodas; no artificial sweeteners; and, no soy.)

Suggest supplements: Vitamin D3 (2000-unit tabs) take 3 at once per day. Lithium orotate (5mg Lithium per tab; one per day). May find at a health shop or need to order from some online place, like Swanson.

Good luck in getting better, Kyuubixcel!
 
#13 ·
Thank you :). I actually have been wanting to look into nutrition for a while, so it's possible that it's connected. Though i'm not unhealthy or malnourished as I eat pretty balanced with everything and my family is fairly good with their knowledge in these things (Majority of my family works in medical fields).
 
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#8 ·
The trick is to getting yourself to believe that you can be understood, honest, etc.. That is what this vulnerability video talks about. This video seems to be what you're talking about, so check it out and see what you think.


This one for shame also came up, I haven't listened to the whole thing, but it may help you.
 
#14 ·
I actually figured out the shame concept from her, I noticed that the way she described it was very reminiscent to how I was as well as how I was raised. Though for me I am always vulnerable, whether i'm faking my expressions or not, one can break me very easily. And that's kind of why I am afraid of humans and their reactions towards me. Their projections of me are also gripping on my heart at all times, and they don't realize how much power they have over me. Or they do (unconsciously) and don't realize it until I point it out to them.
 
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#9 ·
I guess that I can relate in some way and I'm also 4w, thought slightly different?

In my case, I've noticed that I've been quite careful with the impression I give ever since I was a kid, as if I don't want to feel ashamed or judged. When I was older, I began to tailor a perfect mask in front of others too, not showing weaknesses and showing the parts of myself that others might admire or like, or find intelligent. With closer friends I feel safer to be more myself, but I seemed to want to be admired and appreciated.

But that kind of thing leads to false sense of friendship and bond. When I began to show some flaws not everyone appreciated nor knew how to deal with it. The attractive factor would have been lessened.

So the friendship based on my tailored mask is false, it's just illusional.

I try to be more confident and honest, but I can't say that I'm fully good at it yet. Although with my husband I am honest and avoid the mask pitfall. He accepted many of my flaws which made me feel more confident by time.

Thought gaining confidence still doesn't mean blind vulnerability, and I still don't trust anyone. I have to feel that the other person genuinely cares and is able to handle some things that i'd fully show it, thought I'm also not avoidant of conflicts as while it stresses me, I rather talk about it and see what happens.
 
#16 ·
Yes I definitely relate. Even though i'm slightly more genuine to my personality I still can't throw out the mask because it is an expectation that people want to see out of me, as they are convinced that this is who I am (because I portrayed it so). I also definitely overwhelm them when I begin to show some of my truer colors..and this makes me go longer showing them the mask until I know that they'd be ready to handle it. And any "friendship" that I feel I need the mask for I don't consider a true friendship.

I feel the same about trust. I am very gullible and tend to assume what people tell me firsthand is the truth, but in recent years i've begun to see the other sides of people, and this reflects into my personality making me more cynical and skeptical of what I am shown by others. For me, it depends on the conflict that I become avoidant. If I mess up I tend to own up to my mistake, but I have a ghastly fear of apologizing (connected to shame and guilt). I also become avoidant if there's something out of my control like a fight or trying to maintain my emotions when they reach an extreme (like anger, depending on how much stress I am carrying).
 
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#15 ·
It seems odd that you feel you can't be completely open with close friends. Of all people, they're the ones I'm least worried about saying offensive or hurtful things to. Probably the only people I hold back my opinions from might be people who sign my paychecks. Some things aren't worth the fight.

Also, if you don't know a person, holding back your opinions can be a good strategy, especially if they reveal aspects of you that you feel are weaknesses. It's generally not a good idea to let people know those things about you. In some sense, I view people as competitors and am careful about what I reveal of myself to them, especially weaknesses.

In any case, don't hate yourself over things you say. If you actually do hurt someone's feelings, and you feel bad about it, that pretty much proves you're not the monster you might think you are. Life is too short to feel shame over everything you do. I can guarantee those people who try to shame you have plenty of shameful things in their own closets that would knock them a few rungs down the ladder.
 
#17 ·
It's mainly because of my fear of hurting them. You know how some criticisms might be more hurtful than others? It's mainly because I have experienced criticism and outright disrespect on almost every level so it's a challenge to find a line where you know what you say isn't going to damage their ego to where they internalize the projections as a form of self deprecation like me. And the thing is that i'm very vulnerable, even when I don't act the part. Even strangers have the capacity to do damage to the little self esteem that I have. It's when I have to openly speak to someone about themselves, I begin to show fear. And my perfectionist tendencies are also a problem in that I will most likely notice many flaws that I may be afraid to share.

Generally yeah, withholding opinions can be a good survival tactic, but it's different if it's someone close to you. My relationship with my parents are generally the original example I have with this fear. My father happens to have narcissistic traits where nobody in the family including me can give him any kind of criticism without a denial/rage filled backlash that is now directed towards you, even if it means changing the entire subject.

It's more fear in the sense of discovering that someone is closed minded about themselves. And in this case it's more the fault of how our culture works, we encourage and perpetuate it, while trying to convince people that everything that they're told is unfalsifiable. Our parents learn it from their parents and their parents learn it from theirs, etc. etc. and as a result they are rewarded for accepting it and conforming. It's a generational conditioning that we become oblivious to and it's sad because some people never wake up. Those that don't conform or are born with a higher possibility of nonconformity are scapegoated and if they give in they can potentially become the golden child, which leads to narcissism in training.
 
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