Catch-22 Syndrome

**Hokahey** · 03-31-2011 04:42 PM

So, this is going to have two topics. This may come off as whining/self-pity, which I apologize for in advance. But there is the "thing" about INFJ males usually later in age or at least gone through a bad breakup carrying around "baggage". How can one actually release it? Usually a person would get past things through "experience" but in relationships it's hard to start a new one if it appears you have "baggage", but usually baggage (at least personally for me) would be dropped when I no longer have anything to focus or draw experience from. Confused

So catch-22, can't move forward without being forward and can't move forward without being forward.

Second, confidence. Why does this have to be "upfront", mine grows over time and experience again. I see/hear/read that women really like a guy who is "confident" but like I said at first I'm not very confident but later on my confidence grows immensely. That's how it was in my relationship, my ex even told me this. So again catch-22. Thoughts? Outside of (dude, you're thinking is screwed up and just "fix" yourself) I enjoy the pace at which I go about things. And I'm only me, which deep down I like but the surface seems to matter a lot.

Btw, I am comfortable with the fact that I am no longer with my ex, all I have is memories and experiences. Figured I should clarify that.

**Clementia** · 03-31-2011 04:56 PM

I'm female so I don't know if my perspective is that useful. I guess I can comment as being someone who is on the other side of things...it is hard to deny that confidence is something that women do notice...but also be aware that there is a fine line between quiet, unassuming confidence (which women love) and shallow cockiness (which women, even most shallow women, hate with a passion). As an INFJ, you probably already have that quiet confidence, you just may not realize it. As women mature, I think they begin to look past the guys who garner all the attention, towards the back of the room to try to find a genuinely nice guy. Believe me, they are far too rare! Maybe the problem is not so much that you don't have confidence, but that you haven't found someone who can look past male posturing and appreciate all the valuable things you have to offer. I have no idea...I'm just guessing so forgive me if I'm way off.

As for the baggage thing...ah well I can't comment as that would make me a big hypocrite. You say "its hard to start a new relationship if it appears you have baggage"- do you mean the other person doesn't want you because you seem to have baggage, or you can't bond with the new person because of the baggage? I think the former is pretty unrealistic of the other person (unless you are like 18) but the latter is definitely something I can relate to and is difficult to get past. I just keep hoping that if I meet the right person the baggage suddenly won't feel so significant.

I'm not sure what you mean by "usually baggage (at least personally for me) would be dropped when I no longer have anything to focus or draw experience from"?

**Hokahey** · 03-31-2011 05:17 PM

Originally Posted by Clementia

do you mean the other person doesn't want you because you seem to have baggage, or you can't bond with the new person because of the baggage? I think the former is pretty unrealistic of the other person (unless you are like 18) but the latter is definitely something I can relate to and is difficult to get past.

I mean slightly both, but more of the other person seeing the baggage and not accepting it as such, looking at me as "damaged" in a way. I mean it's like I'm carrying it around and it's "visible" but that's only because it's similar to a scar it doesn't hurt anymore but people see it.

I'm not sure what you mean by "usually baggage (at least personally for me) would be dropped when I no longer have anything to focus or draw experience from"?

Haha, you answered this with this:

I just keep hoping that if I meet the right person the baggage suddenly won't feel so significant.

That's what I mean, it's a part of me, but until I have new "experiences" I only have the old, which would get replaced.

**Goodewitch** · 03-31-2011 05:24 PM

I'm not male, obviously,..but this whole baggage thing,.hmm, I going to go against the usual psychobabble thats spouted about baggage and 'moving forward,' and tell you what I've experienced in real life and through observation of older men and women in general.
Baggage doesnt disappear,..its not released, Hokahey,..its always there,..baggage IS your experiences,..the trick is to know you have it, but just keep quiet about it.
Too many people talk about their emotional baggage and hang ups to potential partners,.. and this is when people dont want to be with you, or date you.
If someone says they have no baggage, and have moved on , I'd be very suspicious of that,.. they're probably in some horrible self delusionary denial about it,..which will spill out later.
The reality is, that no one 'trusts' anyone at the begining... and probably never really will all through a relationship. ideals are spoken of all the time about relationships in forums, but the reality is rarely acknowledged. The reality is, we all will be keeping an eye on a partner,.. 100% trust just doesnt happen. So if you have some baggage, dont worry too much about it, just understand that every date you have, or every relationship you start, is taking a chance. its a gamble,..you roll the dice and hope you win.
Confidence,..lol,..this old chestnut. Do you know this whole 'confidence' milarkey, is something I have never heard of coming out of anywhere except the US. It just wasnt even around as a concept in Europe, as a dating buzzword, before that horrendous de Angelo fellow started writing his ghastly books.
Men have been suckered into this whole 'confidence' thing. Confidence in terms of daing or relationships....What the hell does it even mean? I dont get it.
No one can 'create attraction' through acting like some dude in a smart suit going 'Heeey laaaaaydies, look at my smart suit and matching tie, and my expensive watch..ye see what I did there, laaaydies, I swaggered in and said Heeey in my American accent... thumbs up.. yeaaah, Im the man'
Thats what this whole daft 'confidence' thing seems to be, a used car salesman in a cheap suit, looking to impress the laaaaydies. Yuk!
Look, Hokahey, a woman takes a look at you, if she finds you attractive physically, if she can imagine sleeping with you, then she'll look at who you are,..and every woman is going to want something different. Being yourself ensures that you attract women who will be attracted to YOU, in all your slow burn confident self.
Man, I wish this whole 'women like confidence 'thing would just go away...I still dont know what the hell its supposed to really mean. My boyfreinds have been a collection of indecisive, stammering, introverted, socially awkward, and in one case plain basket case crazy. They all had baggage and self esteem issues,.. I chose them because I liked them,..not one of them had what is termed 'confidence'. Again, what does that term 'confidence' really even mean in this context? It's beyond me :)

G. x

**Hokahey** · 03-31-2011 05:37 PM

Originally Posted by Goodewitch

I'm not male, obviously,..but this whole baggage thing,.hmm, I going to go against the usual psychobabble thats spouted about baggage and 'moving forward,' and tell you what I've experienced in real life and through observation of older men and women in general.
Baggage doesnt disappear,..its not released, Hokahey,..its always there,..baggage IS your experiences,..the trick is to know you have it, but just keep quiet about it.
Too many people talk about their emotional baggage and hang ups to potential partners,.. and this is when people dont want to be with you, or date you.
If someone says they have no baggage, and have moved on , I'd be very suspicious of that,.. they're probably in some horrible self delusionary denial about it,..which will spill out later.
The reality is, that no one 'trusts' anyone at the begining... and probably never really will all through a relationship. ideals are spoken of all the time about relationships in forums, but the reality is rarely acknowledged. The reality is, we all will be keeping an eye on a partner,.. 100% trust just doesnt happen. So if you have some baggage, dont worry too much about it, just understand that every date you have, or every relationship you start, is taking a chance. its a gamble,..you roll the dice and hope you win.
Confidence,..lol,..this old chestnut. Do you know this whole 'confidence' milarkey, is something I have never heard of coming out of anywhere except the US. It just wasnt even around as a concept in Europe, as a dating buzzword, before that horrendous de Angelo fellow started writing his ghastly books.
Men have been suckered into this whole 'confidence' thing. Confidence in terms of daing or relationships....What the hell does it even mean? I dont get it.
No one can 'create attraction' through acting like some dude in a smart suit going 'Heeey laaaaaydies, look at my smart suit and matching tie, and my expensive watch..ye see what I did there, laaaydies, I swaggered in and said Heeey in my American accent... thumbs up.. yeaaah, Im the man'
Thats what this whole daft 'confidence' thing seems to be, a used car salesman in a cheap suit, looking to impress the laaaaydies. Yuk!
Look, Hokahey, a woman takes a look at you, if she finds you attractive physically, if she can imagine sleeping with you, then she'll look at who you are,..and every woman is going to want something different. Being yourself ensures that you attract women who will be attracted to YOU, in all your slow burn confident self.
Man, I wish this whole 'women like confidence 'thing would just go away...I still dont know what the hell its supposed to really mean. My boyfreinds have been a collection of indecisive, stammering, introverted, socially awkward, and in one case plain basket case crazy. They all had baggage and self esteem issues,.. I chose them because I liked them,..not one of them had what is termed 'confidence'. Again, what does that term 'confidence' really even mean in this context? It's beyond me :)

G. x

Is it seriously possible in 10 years (since I have been 18 at least, wasn't interested in dating in high school either so I guess 14 years now) no one has truly "seen" me other than female friends who only "adore" the thought of me but only on a friend level?

Btw, thank you for your very informational post. I love it.

Same with Clementia. I don't feel as bad now.

On the note of being myself, honestly I am always myself. I think the only time I ever slipped where I wasn't "myself" was about 4 to 6 months before my ex left (work stress issues, and work related sickness issues) and then after she left me which lasted a good 2 years and is still "part" of me as you said Goodwitch.

**Goodewitch** · 03-31-2011 06:02 PM

Originally Posted by Hokahey

Is it seriously possible in 10 years (since I have been 18 at least, wasn't interested in dating in high school either so I guess 14 years now) no one has truly "seen" me other than female friends who only "adore" the thought of me but only on a friend level?

Btw, thank you for your very informational post. I love it.

Same with Clementia. I don't feel as bad now.

On the note of being myself, honestly I am always myself. I think the only time I ever slipped where I wasn't "myself" was about 4 to 6 months before my ex left (work stress issues, and work related sickness issues) and then after she left me which lasted a good 2 years and is still "part" of me as you said Goodwitch.

I think its very possible that no one has seen the 'true' you yet Hokahey,..I'm 41 coming up,..and I'm still waiting for someone to see the 'true' me...lol.
Its a numbers game,..in the many thousands of people that will pass through your life, only a few will be of the personality and temprament, and have that attraction to you that is needed to kickstart that real interest thats needed to get a relationship going.
I can count on one hand the amount of men that made me sit up and think Wow!
In fact 3 men , 3 in 40 years have made me think Phwwoarr!thats all, just 3. That attraction has to be mutual, and mutual interests and needs, wants etc have to align too. Its not going to be a quick process,..and a lot of the time its down to sheer dumb luck.
I have a feeling you have tried to truly forgive your ex, hokahey, possibly forgave too soon, i think you've turned what anger and frustration you felt at the breakup, onto yourself..your fears, insecurities..am i confident enough,..am i handsome enough/.. am i too boring, etc.. is something that can happen when your self esteem takes a hit. The anger you should have felt towards her, has maybe been covered with a sense of frgivemess and an attempt at unerstanding,.. but its left you guessing about your own worth.
i'd say its time to mentally , in your own mind, call your ex a ungrateful bitch, who missed the greatest chance of her life, because she misssed out on you,.. say 'Fook you ex!' in your mind,.. and now, from this day forth, realise that you're lovable, and as deserving of a relationship as anyone else,..without having to do frikken years of self improvement, and being self aware and all that other bollocks. No one expects perfection, you;re fine as you are.
I think you may, like a lot of us INFJ's take things too seriously, worry too much and try to analyse everything ahead of time.
In this case, id say, pick your targets well, your type would be a fellow introvert, but someone who you can laugh with. Oh, and fook yer female freinds, the freindzone is horrible,.. never mind them,.. stay out of that trap,.. and actively look for someone who YOU woud like to date,.. dont ask if youre good enough for her..ask if shes good enough for you..that whole mental attitude in itself can change your outer ways and change the dynmics of how you relate to women.
G. x

**Daveman** · 03-31-2011 06:03 PM

Originally Posted by Goodewitch

Man, I wish this whole 'women like confidence 'thing would just go away...I still dont know what the hell its supposed to really mean. My boyfreinds have been a collection of indecisive, stammering, introverted, socially awkward, and in one case plain basket case crazy. They all had baggage and self esteem issues,.. I chose them because I liked them,..not one of them had what is termed 'confidence'. Again, what does that term 'confidence' really even mean in this context? It's beyond me :)

I wish more women here in the bloody USA thought like you do. Basket cases like me might actually have a chance.

Originally Posted by Hokahey

Is it seriously possible in 10 years (since I have been 18 at least, wasn't interested in dating in high school either so I guess 14 years now) no one has truly "seen" me other than female friends who only "adore" the thought of me but only on a friend level?

Well, I can relate to you in some ways. It sounds like we are about the same age, as I will turn 28 this year, and I have only managed to become "close friends" (pen pales) with one girl that I was in love with in high school. She married a guy who is in the military- in Iraq now, I belive.

I know she still has strong feelings for me, but I guess I just wasn't what she was looking for in a significant other. She knows all about my "baggage". She has even cared enough to want to help me, but at least on the surface, it's always been "friend level".

**Hokahey** · 03-31-2011 06:17 PM

Originally Posted by Goodewitch

call your ex a ungrateful bitch, who missed the greatest chance of her life, because she misssed out on you,.. say 'Fook you ex!' in your mind,..

I know I can't do that. I mean everyone is designed to "fit" better with another. Obviously she was not for me (ha, I can't even "type" her through MBTI, not saying that's an exclusive reason, just saying some of the relationship I was in love with being in love if that makes sense. And that's not fair to her either. she needs to find the exact match, and maybe she did when she left me and maybe she didn't). I mean some of the stuff that went down kind of sucked, but meh...

Also looking back she honestly didn't understand me very well, or at least more of the surface layers she understood. So what the hell we were even doing in a relationship, again IDK.

**Clementia** · 03-31-2011 06:28 PM

I couldn't have said it all better than Goodewitch. I agree with all her points.

One thing she brought up which I was a little hesitant to say is that there really does need to be an attraction, otherwise you end up in the friend zone. I hate hate hate to admit it, but I think both men and women need to have an initial physical attraction before they make the (sometimes unconscious) decision to get to know a person better. Men sometimes forget that women can be as physically driven as men

Goodewitch also hit the nail on the head about "confidence" being a US-invented cultural phenomenon...never heard of it in other countries...what I personally mean by confidence though is the INFJ-type of confidence, which is "I know who I am, I have principles, I don't act like a douche-bag and I consider myself to harbor all the interesting secrets an INFJ can hold" - its difficult to explain but I know it when I see it, and I hope that i have some of that "confidence" too.