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However, do check out the "How to tell if an INTP male is interested" thread, for some helpful insights on the intricacies of relating to INTPs in the INTP forum.
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This is a discussion on INFJ - INTP Relations (one thought) within the INFJ Forum - The Protectors forums, part of the NF's Temperament Forum- The Dreamers category; DISREGARD - Misinformation However, do check out the "How to tell if an INTP male is interested" thread, for some ...
DISREGARD - Misinformation
However, do check out the "How to tell if an INTP male is interested" thread, for some helpful insights on the intricacies of relating to INTPs in the INTP forum.
Last edited by GinBad; 03-10-2011 at 07:43 PM.
In socionics chart you are referencing you have to switch J/P preferences. So what you posted about is INTJ-INFP relations actually - INTJ is benefactor and INFP is beneficiary. In INFJ-INTP relations the INFJ is the benefactor and INTP is beneficiary. Friendships or relationships start with a lot of interest from the side of beneficiary (INTP). The benefactor (INFJ) usually senses that the beneficiary pays a lot of attention to what the benefactor has to say, tries to understand the benefactor, may even do tasks on your behalf. The benefactor doesn't consider beneficiary to be as interesting of a person due to benefactor's inferior function being point of least resistance function of beneficiary. Somewhere into the relationship the interest flips. The beneficiary slowly dissociates from benefactor and starts to ignore them. The benefactor will try to integrate themselves with beneficiary feeling that the beneficiary is ignoring them now and wondering where all the attention went.
From what I've read of other relationships of benefit, the beneficiary (INTP) usually ends up feeling like they are trying to hard and benefactor (INFJ) is frequently under-valuing them for all their efforts. Beneficiary may feel that benefactor is self-involved, living somewhere in the world of his or her own and doesn't hear the beneficiary. Over long periods of time this causes beneficiary to also lose interest in the benefactor, especially if in this period of time beneficiary gained enough self-confidence about their inferior function from the benefactor.
There is a ton more posted here: http://translate.google.com/translat...Drel_slin.html translated from Russian via google translator. You can click under "Describe the relationship" to read different descriptions by different socionics authors.
Last edited by vel; 03-10-2011 at 07:19 PM.
Yeah, I just found out that this was misinformation. Thanks for your thoughts!Originally Posted by vel
Also, thanks for posting this link!
this is wrong, ILIs benefit EIIs due to ego block Te which is the DS function of EIIs. Not that I think this matters, since these are really just meaningless adjacent-quadra relations anyway, in my opinion.
Also, the j/p switch is discredited among most serious socionists. Admittedly I don't have a real sample because there are very, very few people I consider serious socionists.
ILIs - the intuitive (Ni) logical (Te) introtim which is INTJ in MBTI - is benefactor to EII - the ethical (Fi) intuitive (Ne) introtim which is the INFP in MBTI. Same relations are shared between INFJ and INTP where INFJ is the benefactor due to having auxiliary Fe which is inferior function in INTP while INTP's dominant is the tertiary in INFJ. Exactly the formation of functions that socionics assigns to relations of benefit.
If I remain INFj in socionics then they assign me functional order of Fi-Ne-Si-Te which is completely different order from MBTI though both are based on jungian functions. This would mean that socionics defines all of the functions completely differently from MBTI, that MBTI Ni a perceiving function is socionics Fi a judging function, from which would follow that these "serious socionists" flipped judging functions and perceiving ones around. And that is simply absurd. However if you do switch J/P around then this absurdity is gone.
sorry, that's incorrect. because of this site's brilliant design of having me unable to post links until i get to 15 posts, i can't link to wikisocion's description of benefit, but if you compare the functions to the dynamics of the relationship, the ILI has Te in the ego block which is the EII's dual-seeking function, and the EII has Se as the vulnerable function which is the ILI's dual-seeking function. this makes the ILI the benefactor to the EII.
relations of benefit are confusing, especially if you take their descriptions at face value (which i don't; i personally regard them as generalized adjacent-quadra relations with no other meaningful characteristics and whose influences are invariably quadra-based, possibly you could meaningfully think of them as monoverted).
the fact that you're thinking about the relationship of tertiary and auxiliary functions in MBTI unfortunately has nothing to do with the way those elements are described in socionics. this might be the extent of your misinterpretation. to be honest i'm not fully sure.
if you're still confused, feel free to PM me and we can discuss what model A is saying.
only if you assume that socionics IM elements and MBTI functions (e.g. cognitive functions) are equivalent, and that socionics functions (e.g. positions in model A) and MBTI function placements are equivalent. most socionists with any knowledge drop these assumptions as unfounded. while both IM elements in socionics and MBTI cognitive functions are based in jungian descriptions, they are differentially operationalized. again, feel free to PM me or email me if you don't understand something i'm saying.If I remain INFj in socionics then they assign me functional order of Fi-Ne-Si-Te which is completely different order from MBTI though both are based on jungian functions. This would mean that socionics defines all of the functions completely differently from MBTI, that MBTI Ni a perceiving function is socionics Fi a judging function, from which would follow that these "serious socionists" flipped judging functions and perceiving ones around. And that is simply absurd. However if you do switch J/P around then this absurdity is gone.
The INTJ (ILI) in MBTI is the benefactor to the INFP (EII) in MBTI indeed. But this is the INFJ (IEI) forum and we're discussing the relationship of benefit between IEI and LII where IEI is the request transmitter and LII is the request receiver. Look at the INFJ and INTP functions in MBTI and you will see it yourself.
That's your confusion here because that's exactly how MBTI function correlate to socionics functions.
And by the way you still haven't explained to me how MBTI Ni-Fe personality can magically turn into Fi-Ne personality in socionics since as you have stated the J/P switch is erroneous. Because if you look here http://www.socionics.com/advan/whoiswho.html the INFj in socionics is Fi leading Ne creative. An INFJ is Ni-Fe in MBTI then how same person be INFj Fi-Ne in socionics?
If you read socionics descriptions of functions you can correlate them directly to MBTI functions. Lots of people claim that they do not correspond, but these people typically have little experience in one theory or the other, so they are essentially making unfounded claims. Spend around a year on MBTI forums and socionics forums you will see exactly same patterns of relationships.
i don't advocate that MBTI INFPs are automatically EIIs in socionics. actually, in the case of INFPs EIIs are probably one of the better fits, but there are many cases in which there is no such relationship at all -- for instance, ISFPs and ESIs, which are described in quite different ways in conventional descriptions (ESIs are also quite different from conventional descriptions of ISFJs, in my opinion; actually, many ESIs in my opinion mistakenly identify themselves as LSIs due to the influence of ISTJ descriptions.And by the way you still haven't explained to me how MBTI Ni-Fe personality can magically turn into Fi-Ne personality in socionics since as you have stated the J/P switch is erroneous. Because if you look here <link removed for the same stupid reason> An INFJ is Ni-Fe in MBTI then how same person be INFj Fi-Ne in socionics?
in my view, the MBTI is a "fuzzy" and overly dichotomy-based typology which people associate as well with cognitive functions -- so, to be clear, you would have to operationalize your meaning of functions better in order for me to understand what you mean by MBTI (other than the stock definition that i think is conceptually appropriate to the topic, but may not represent your views). to that end, there is very little strict relationship between the influence of socionics IM elements, as operationalized as an independent model like model A, with MBTI or JCF-like typologies, especially if they place much of their weight on dichotomies as trait-based measures of personality -- that is my view, and not the MBTI=socionics nonsense that some people spout routinely.
i don't believe you have warrant to challenge my experience. i certainly won't challenge yours, though it seems obvious that your grasp at the very least of socionics is very remedial.If you read socionics descriptions of functions you can correlate them directly to MBTI functions. Lots of people claim that they do not correspond, but these people typically have little experience in one theory or the other, so they are essentially making unfounded claims. Spend around a year on MBTI forums and socionics forums you will see exactly same patterns of relationships.
Well here is an ESI socionics profile: Ethical Sensing Introtim - Wikisocion I'll quote to you all the things that apply to MBTI ISFPs which is roughly 80% of the profile:
"ESI sees reality primarily through static personal ethics" - check, ISFP in MBTI also oriented by personal ethics Fi
"ESI is very confident in evaluating the ethical or moral qualities" - check, both Fi-dom personalities in MBTI are known for strong personal ethics
"has difficulty in deciding the status of a personal relationship, he will take action to try to reach a conclusion" - check introverted judging function user typically has to withdraw and spend some time alone to reach conclusions
"very high regard for personal loyalty and integrity" - check, same for ISFPs in MBTI
"idea that he failed on that is extremely upsetting to an ESI" - check, failing on matters of personal judgements is upsetting for ISFPs
"ESIs are very often more confident of the status of a personal relationship - and of what it should be in their view - than other persons" - check, same
"ESIs take direct action to accomplish their goals and desires ... eliberately applying pressure in specific situations, or abruptly taking on an organizational role ... They are inclined to be resolute in taking action" - check, same, ISFP in MBTI orient by auxiliary Se will often take new and abrupt actions
"ESIs tend to evaluate people's ethical behavior "as it is" and not "as it could be" - check ISFP in MBTI is a perceiver, oriented at present moment and the process rather than end goal
"ESIs have a strong sense of what is and is not physically attractive, and will often judge themselves against a very difficult criteria." - check, this is also often stated about ISFPs in MBTI
"ESIs appreciate periodically having an outside evaluation of how a situation is likely to develop in order to keep from worrying excessively" - same for ISFPs in MBTI who will periodically fall on Ni to estimate the probability of something happening
"ESIs are worried that they are thinking too much of the consequences instead of acting, so sometimes acting impulsively. ... ESIs place great value in thinking about the consequences of actions and whether they are opportune or not, but such considerations are often overruled by their inclination to take action before it's too late." - same of ISFP in MBTI, as their auxiliary function Se holds precedence over their tertiary Ni they will more often choose to take action rather than wait
"Reliable information rather than the finished analysis is what attracts the ESI: facts and explanations, not answers limited to the conclusions, which they tend to see as mere opinions." - same is true for ISFPs in MBTI, due to inferior Te function they prefer reliable established facts that Te-dom/aux personalities can give then rather than logical analysis that Ti-dom/aux personalities deliver
"The ESI tends to be unsure the productivity of his actions and unconsciously relies on others to give him impressions and advice about the best, most productive ways of doing things. He has difficulties measuring how much work he has done, whether it is sufficient, and how much it is actually worth." - same, ISFPs with inferior Te have trouble making Te-judgements and seek other persons who are able to more easily make such judgements for them
and so on, and so forth ...
Also why aren't you examining the possibility that whenever you see profiles not matching that this is simply a result of the author doing a poor job at compiling the profile? There are many profiles written for MBTI types. Some of them are written so poorly that you will be able to assign such poorly written profile to 3-4 different personalities. Same is true of socionics. And by the way, when I go to socionics forums I frequently see you guys get stuck on semantics, discussing the wording of profiles instead of looking into the root - the functions that yield that profile - and correlating that with your own observations of people's behavior out there in the real world, which believe me is a much better way of getting an understanding of any given personality typology system.
That's because ESIs aren't ISFJs so of course their descriptions will be quite different from those of ISFJs. But they do match the ISFP description as I have demonstrated above. You are correct in noticing that ESIs mistake themselves for LSIs just like in MBTI ISFPs mistake themselves of ISTPs.
Socionics is also based on same dichotomies as MBTI which is explained in several socionics sources. This is explained in socionics.us: Introduction to Socionics "The 16 socionic types differ on four axes (called 'dichotomies'): rationality/irrationality, extraversion/introversion, intuition/sensing, and logic/ethics. Each type has one characteristic from each of the dichotomies, making 16 possible combinations." This is explained in Wikisocion which is a very popular website to reference for socionics information in English-speaking socionics communities: Dichotomies - Wikisocion. These are same dichotomies that MBTI uses, no more no less, so how you derived your conclusion that MBTI is an "overly dichotomy-based typology" is unclear.
If you don't have a clear understanding of MBTI functions, I would recommend you read through sticky threads in the Cognitive Functions and MBTI suboforums as well as this wiki here Function Attitude and gain conceptual understanding of them. Until you do this, you are actually in no position to make judgements comparing MBTI and socionics.
Sure, I propose we end this debate here since it sounds like you first need to read up on and study MBTI to be able to make valid comparisons between the two systems.
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