[knittigan]

Hello INFJs!

Long time, no see. I hope all of you are well.

So I was thinking to myself the other day that it’s sort of strange that I’ve never created a thread on my two favourite topics: INFJ men and gender. I’ve said before that I’ve always felt that as a female INTJ, INFJ men are kind of the yin to my yang when it comes to being quiet, intellectual, and seriously genderbendy and my INFJ boyfriend reaffirms that to me almost every day. But still, I’m an intellectual blackhole when it comes to the things that interest me and so I would love to hear about what your experiences have been as men, either presently or growing up, and your relationship to masculinity.

My personal thoughts on the matter are that there is a lot to be gained for men and women both by relaxing the current definition of masculinity, that masculinity doesn’t have to be a negative quality characterised by aggression or competition or dominance, and that my INFJ boyfriend is without doubt the best, most confident, masculine man that I have ever had the privilege of knowing.

I’m not really looking to have a specific laundry list of questions answered, but here are a few suggestions to get your heads in the right place:

-What does masculinity/being a man mean to you?
-What is your relationship with masculinity?
-Would you consider yourself to be a masculine person? Would others?
-How do you experience your gender?
-What was your experience with masculinity as a child – and especially as an adolescent? Have you ever felt pressured to be more masculine than you were naturally?
-What kinds of strengths do you see yourself as having in comparison to “most men”? Weaknesses?
-Have your stereotypically ‘INFJ qualities’ helped or hindered you in your romantic relationships (with women, men or both)? In what ways?

Feel free to answer as many or as few as you like or meander outside of what I have suggested, completely up to you. Stories, anecdotes, and experiences are all welcome and appreciated. Male-bodied individuals who do not necessarily identify or experience themselves as men are also welcome to answer. I very much look forward to your responses!

[andrew1234]

I can defiantly see how INFJ men and INTJ women might be in the same type of situation. Masculinity is the possession of traits that are typical or appropriate for men - I think that masculine traits are only a fraction of the possible ways gender identity is expressed. I'm probably a lot less masculine than the average guy and find myself pretty disinterested in most topics that men typically like. I actually haven't faced a lot of pressure to become more more manly; I think I'm pretty put-off by machoism and being type 4 sort-of helps me not mind being different. I still feel pretty confident and internally can see a sort of "masculine" drive although it doesn't form the same way externally. I feel like being a bit different than average makes things a bit harder in romantic relationships initially but but when you find someone when being your true authentic self it makes it much more meaningful.

[knittigan]

I can defiantly see how INFJ men and INTJ women might be in the same type of situation. Masculinity is the possession of traits that are typical or appropriate for men - I think that masculine traits are only a fraction of the possible ways gender identity is expressed. I'm probably a lot less masculine than the average guy and find myself pretty disinterested in most topics that men typically like. I actually haven't faced a lot of pressure to become more more manly; I think I'm pretty put-off by machoism and being type 4 sort-of helps me not mind being different.

Yes, I would imagine that Enneagram can play into this quite a bit as well. I'm 5w4 and I think that my 4 wing has helped me in a way similar to what you've described here.

I still feel pretty confident and internally can see a sort of "masculine" drive although it doesn't form the same way externally.

This is interesting. How would you describe the "masculine drive" you feel internally? Could you give me an example?

I feel like being a bit different than average makes things a bit harder in romantic relationships initially but but when you find someone when being your true authentic self it makes it much more meaningful.

Yes, absolutely.

[setzer]

-What is your relationship with masculinity?
A tough one. Quite frankly I hate the macho stereotype. It's crude, non caring, loud, annoying, obnoxious et.c

-Would you consider yourself to be a masculine person? Would others?
I'm probably a bit more feminine then the average guy. How others perceive me is quite hard to answer. They probably just think I'm introverted.

-How do you experience your gender?
In general, crude, non caring, loud, annoying, obnoxious et.c
Yeah the same as my view of the macho stereotype but in general its a mix of those for the general male in my eyes.

-What was your experience with masculinity as a child – and especially as an adolescent? Have you ever felt pressured to be more masculine that you were naturally?
I didn't think much of it back then, still don't. Have I felt pressured to be more masculine? Not really, I shrug it off and stay quiet instead.

-What kinds of strengths do you see yourself as having in comparison to “most men”? Weaknesses?
Empathy. Acceptance. Caring.
Weaknesses: Not as masculine as the "rolemodel" man. Silly I know. Not outgoing.

[ideologicalflowz]

I've always been considered as less than a man, even in childhood. I am pretty soft-spoken, naturally skinny, have a slender bone structure, introverted, and I am not aggressive by nature. People usually take my physical appearance and demeanor as signs of weakness. There's just so many stupid games and social posturing that goes on at times, and I can't stand it. I guess people that make fun of me just do it because they think I won't do anything. And I usually don't, but if you blatantly disrespect me repeatedly, I won't let that go quietly. The people who know me the best know not to mess with me.

I grew up in a household full of strong womyn, so I don't care about gender roles too much. I look for the qualities people have. Of course, I still notice whether a person appears to be a male or a female, but that's only because that's what I've been taught to do. And there are many people that feel they fall somewhere in between the two genders, or that they do not apply at all. I won't use faulty notions to define people, so I try to make up my own.

So what does it mean for me to be a male? To have male reproductive organs. That's it. But as a person, I want to be someone who takes care of business and respects others.

However, with that said, I am aware of my male privilege in society. In my own little world I would like for all of us to be treated the same, but that's not reality. But that's just one thing that I would like to change.

[Ashneversleeps]

First, I feel like conventional masculinity itself isn't such an easy concept to pin down. From what I've noticed, there are at least two sub-categories of masculinity that immediately come to mind. The first is the more active one; the stereotypical loud, aggressive, alpha type. The second, which I would probably be outwardly identified with, is what I can best describe as a Clint Eastwood style of quiet dignity, brooding rather than fighting, rigid sense of principles, etc (ignore the recent real life craziness he presents, lol). I'm not as badass as Eastwood though, don't get me wrong. I'm also probably more sensitive than his general character appears to be.

That's typically what I've always seen as masculine, whereas the former is closer to being puerile and immature than really masculine. I wouldn't actually consider myself very masculine, in either framework. I have some traditionally masculine impulses (see below), but they aren't very strong and can be satisfied rather easily.

Romantically, I think I'm at a slight disadvantage initially because I don't think there are as many women who are immediately enamored with that weird fellow in the corner, quietly glaring at things and who takes an absurdly long time to really begin opening up/trusting. Or if they are, it's more of a curiosity or a challenge thing. However, once a certain level is attained, I feel like I can speak and behave more naturally and be openly empathetic; like there's a critical threshold to reach, and past that the trajectory of my contribution to the relationship is naturally impelled forward.

Anecdotes/examples... well, I guess my current situation works. Yesterday, I went drinking with some male friends (masculine behavior). However, they're out drinking again, watching football, and here I am in my pyjamas (yes, I changed back into them after I showered :D), holed up in my computer room thinking about the concept of masculinity and drinking green tea (not very masculine behavior). I've reached my quota for that sort of stuff for a while.

tl;dr: what @ideologicalflowz said more succinctly

[ideologicalflowz]

here I am in my pyjamas (yes, I changed back into them after I showered :D), holed up in my computer room thinking about the concept of masculinity and drinking green tea (not very masculine behavior).

Nonsense! Who doesn't like drinking green tea in their PJs mulling over life's great mysteries?

[setzer]

@ideologicalflowz
@Ashcancowgirl
Thank you for writing the stuff I would've written but couldn't find the right words! KUDOS!

[Ashneversleeps]

Nonsense! Who doesn't like drinking green tea in their PJs mulling over life's great mysteries?

Fair enough ^_^

Yet, to stay on topic, were I to be evaluated by the male standard, I would most certainly be referred to as some kind of anti-man (and inevitably have my orientation questioned) by those very fellows whose absence I'm currently reveling in. . I'm just one Jane Austen novel from being publicly denounced from my sex.

[knittigan]

Thanks for the responses!

There's just so many stupid games and social posturing that goes on at times, and I can't stand it.

Heh, you're telling me. Try navigating through the games and posturing while being simultaneously blind to emotional subcontext and as emotionally intelligent as a stick

I guess people that make fun of me just do it because they think I won't do anything. And I usually don't, but if you blatantly disrespect me repeatedly, I won't let that go quietly. The people who know me the best know not to mess with me.

Yes, I've noticed this quality in my boyfriend as well. I've never seen him angry before, but I think he would be a pretty fearsome sight to behold. His mum actually commented once that he was the one out of all of her children who she would be the most worried about getting into a fight, especially if it happened to be on behalf of someone else.

I grew up in a household full of strong womyn, so I don't care about gender roles too much. I look for the qualities people have. Of course, I still notice whether a person appears to be a male or a female, but that's only because that's what I've been taught to do. And there are many people that feel they fall somewhere in between the two genders, or that they do not apply at all. I won't use faulty notions to define people, so I try to make up my own.

That's understandable. I see gender because it's so obvious on most people, but I use the terms masculine and feminine very, very loosely.

So what does it mean for me to be a male? To have male reproductive organs. That's it. But as a person, I want to be someone who takes care of business and respects others.

However, with that said, I am aware of my male privilege in society. In my own little world I would like for all of us to be treated the same, but that's not reality. But that's just one thing that I would like to change.

Very nice. I agree completely, especially with the last bit. I think that gender and sex difference are completely irrelevant in the larger schema, but it isn't something I think is an especially smart move, politically, at the present time. I think that it's a good place to strive for, though.

First, I feel like conventional masculinity itself isn't such an easy concept to pin down. From what I've noticed, there are at least two sub-categories of masculinity that immediately come to mind. The first is the more active one; the stereotypical loud, aggressive, alpha type. The second, which I would probably be outwardly identified with, is what I can best describe as a Clint Eastwood style of quiet dignity, brooding rather than fighting, rigid sense of principles, etc (ignore the recent real life craziness he presents, lol). I'm not as badass as Eastwood though, don't get me wrong. I'm also probably more sensitive than his general character appears to be.

That's typically what I've always seen as masculine, whereas the former is closer to being puerile and immature than really masculine. I wouldn't actually consider myself very masculine, in either framework. I have some traditionally masculine impulses (see below), but they aren't very strong and can be satisfied rather easily.

Yes, I would agree that masculinity as a concept is more of a plurality than a monolith, but I wasn't sure if I would be able to articulate my point as well

Romantically, I think I'm at a slight disadvantage initially because I don't think there are as many women who are immediately enamored with that weird fellow in the corner, quietly glaring at things and who takes an absurdly long time to really begin opening up/trusting. Or if they are, it's more of a curiosity or a challenge thing. However, once a certain level is attained, I feel like I can speak and behave more naturally and be openly empathetic; like there's a critical threshold to reach, and past that the trajectory of my contribution to the relationship is naturally impelled forward.

Yes, that sounds quite a bit like what I experienced with my boyfriend. I kind of had an initial, fascinating look into his psyche and then I schemed for months about how I could get him to show it to me again.

Anecdotes/examples... well, I guess my current situation works. Yesterday, I went drinking with some male friends (masculine behavior). However, they're out drinking again, watching football, and here I am in my pyjamas (yes, I changed back into them after I showered :D), holed up in my computer room thinking about the concept of masculinity and drinking green tea (not very masculine behavior). I've reached my quota for that sort of stuff for a while.

tl;dr: what @ideologicalflowz said more succinctly

No judgment. I am also sitting around in (clean) sleepwear drinking tea and thinking about the concept of masculinity. It's clearly what the cool kids are up to these days

Thanks as well for your response, @setzer. I didn't quote you, but I still read it and it was very interesting. That's a cute dog you have in your avatar!