[Feelings]

Hi there counsellors. I'd like some assistance in clarifying my feelings/beliefs/opinions. I have this 18 year old IxFP female internet friend who I've known for.. fuck I dunno... couple years? We're not CLOOOSEE and only chat occasionally. I know her somewhat well. I haven't talked to her in a couple months maybe. I don't really pay too much attention to it. She's kinda on and off as far as internet presence, and I don't bother calling her :D

Anyhow, she told me today that she attempted suicide twice. First time she took 50 painkillers. Second time she took 70 and was hospitalized. She's feeling very depressed because her boyfriend dumped her. She does love him, but the relationship has been having problems for a while now. She's been going out with him for less than a year, but they've been best friends for a couple years. She says that she had to change herself to meet his needs. She says that she's usually the dominant one in a romantic relationship, and this guy needed her to be submissive/compliant, so she became that. She says that it really broke her down as a person.



See, the thing is, I know her. She's not a chronic complainer. She's not really inclined towards depression. She's kinda happy-go-lucky. Very easygoing, cool with pretty much anything. Good looking girl, good natured. She has no problem at all finding interested males. She does have her insecurities (pretty much all 18 year old females do), but all in all she's bright eyed and bushy tailed. I ~know~ that in time, probably less than a year, she'll be back to her old self, and be perfectly fine.

How do I feel? I'm not sure what I want to do here. I don't really like to meddle in other people's decisions unless I have a very good reason to. I could probably manipulate her into feeling better. I could probably manipulate her into reducing the odds she'll attempt suicide again. I'm not sure if I have the right to, though. And even if I don't have the ability, I'm pretty good at networking some INFJ advisor types to help me :D

Fuck, doesn't she have an INFJ best friend? Why do I get stuck with the heavy lifting? Of course, I don't want her to kill herself. There is a lot of joy for her to have. What I'm struggling most with is that it feels like I'm making decisions for her. I don't feel convinced that I have the right to intervene strongly (i.e. pull out the manipulation playbook).

[DirtySmilez]

Hmm, that's alot of painkillers. Doing it twice rules out doing it for attention, so she must be truly suffering to want to end it all. Forgive me for stating the obvious...it's part of my process.

People are idiots. They don't understand what has value and what does not when they are over-run by emotions, she seems sensible but is acting on feelings. Living by how you feel is a terrible idea. Feelings will pass, but what we do when we are emotional might not. The choices made when one is overcome by emotions are usually stupid ones. Saying things we will regret, doing things we will regret, and not understanding what is rational and what is not.

You know her well enough to deduce that how she is acting now differs from how she usually acts. This is evidence enough that she is not in her right state of mind to truly understand what she is doing. Sure she may think it's what she wants, but think of how she will feel a month from now? A year from now? If decisions are made when we are not at our best, they are usually really sucky ones.

So you have two choices. You can be the good guy and talk to her and try and change her perspective of the situation, and respect her decisions. You can NOT meddle in her affairs and wash your hands clean of the situation, and hope she doesn't off herself.

Or...You can join the dark side and manipulate her, pull the strings of her mind to get a desired effect. Yes it is dirty, sly, and without honor. But you would probably prevent her from making a stupid decision over an even stupider situation. Sometimes that's what it takes to keep the world goin round.

We all know the government has to do some pretty messed up stuff so we can all live free and happy. The people who do the dirty deeds of a country make that sacrifice, so others can live. They carry the burden no one else can.

So you either stay out of it and hope, or get involved and be sure. Doing what is necessary is never easy, but someone's gotta do it.

This is just my opinion though man, no need to even bother listening to me.

But if it was me in your shoes...I would do whatever was necessary to keep her from making a decision as serious as that one. Clean hands or not.

[StElmosDream]

From personal experience it generally takes people much hardship before suicide is even attempted and a great deal of internal conflict that makes people feel like powerless singular beings. The worse thing in this case is the pain of personality oppression with a 'loving smile' which will make the situation much harder to address, moreso when your friend clearly sees her relationship as a 'loving, mutually respected, equal' one; the greatest challenge it seems will be to get her to see the before and after perspectives of herself. It seems 'manipulation' way be the best way or distraction where you express all your feeling and concerns, noting how you've observed a change in personality (don't attribute it to her SO until she does) then give her time to consider root causes and catch up with her a week later to see if new awareness has has been (note how you will be happy for her to contact you in the mean time). When you meet next mirror her responses or ask subtle questions likely to make her consider the causes of her misery and ask what is causing her the most sadness again to see if her answer changes then suggest that she may need to have a heart-to-heart with her SO raising these these 'new awarenesses' or insights (it seems many may prefer denial or habituate when problems are internalised or projected as 'their fault'). Finally just let her talk about previous issues if you may find she starts listing them herself but has not drawn up reasons or stopped considering how they truly make her feel; this is where subtle questions can be used such as "how did this make you feel", "what would you prefer to have said or done", "how would you have addressed this in a previous relationship", "do often wonder what give and take you SO is performing", "what would you say to your partner about relationship issues if he were here with us", "how have you tried resolving these issues".

Ultimately it is your decision, if you may help or hinder the suicidee, depending on the angle you take to support her just by listening and advising or end up becoming her go to person when she wishes to vent; although DirtySmilez is right in stating that there is no half measures, moreso when co-dependency issues can occur or cause a person to sink into deeper depression if they feel like they know too much too soon but lack people to talk to about these feelings.

If unsure the best advice may be to host an intervention or recommend that she sees a counsellor, when the mind can be so fragile where she may risk another attempt due to realisation about loss of personal identity or problems changing her reality. In contrast one can never know true causes until they really care enough to become interested - most of all show sensitivity if the worst aspect about suicide is societal stigma where many still believe it to be an easy way of out... which it is not.

I hope something has been useful to you and hope you realise that suicide recovery or self empowerment to see other alternatives, is not always a quick process due to the fact that people need to learn how to utilise support networks or worst case scenario simply admit a problem exists before it becomes nuclear (live or die, solve or fail, all or nothing) then acknowledge their own personal strength to accept that it is solvable or never final when life can change if people take tiny steps.

*disclaimer
Ultimately information offered should only be taken as incomplete, due due to lack of complete facts or absence of personal insight into true causes.

[Feelings]

Hmm, that's alot of painkillers. Doing it twice rules out doing it for attention, so she must be truly suffering to want to end it all. Forgive me for stating the obvious...it's part of my process.

Lol I never considered that she'd do that for attention.

So you have two choices. You can be the good guy and talk to her and try and change her perspective of the situation, and respect her decisions. You can NOT meddle in her affairs and wash your hands clean of the situation, and hope she doesn't off herself.

I already said what I had to say to her.

Or...You can join the dark side and manipulate her, pull the strings of her mind to get a desired effect. Yes it is dirty, sly, and without honor. But you would probably prevent her from making a stupid decision over an even stupider situation. Sometimes that's what it takes to keep the world goin round.

We all know the government has to do some pretty messed up stuff so we can all live free and happy. The people who do the dirty deeds of a country make that sacrifice, so others can live. They carry the burden no one else can.

Perhaps I need to pull back from this idea of respecting her decisions, because she is presently not in her right mind.

[Feelings]

From personal experience it generally takes people much hardship before suicide is even attempted and a great deal of internal conflict that makes people feel like powerless singular beings.

I did not see this. I thought she was just whimsical.

noting how you've observed a change in personality (don't attribute it to her SO until she does) then give her time to consider root causes and catch up with her a week later to see if new awareness has has been (note how you will be happy for her to contact you in the mean time).

No need. She already told me she changed her personality for him. She's pretty straight up about things, which is presumably why she's my friend.

ask what is causing her the most sadness

ok

again to see if her answer changes then suggest that she may need to have a heart-to-heart with her SO raising these these 'new awarenesses' or insights (it seems many may prefer denial or habituate when problems are internalised or projected as 'their fault').

No need. They already broke up, and like I said, she knows she changed for him.

Finally just let her talk about previous issues if you may find she starts listing them herself but has not drawn up reasons or stopped considering how they truly make her feel; this is where subtle questions can be used such as "how did this make you feel", "what would you prefer to have said or done", "how would you have addressed this in a previous relationship", "do often wonder what give and take you SO is performing", "what would you say to your partner about relationship issues if he were here with us", "how have you tried resolving these issues".

Uh ok... I suppose I can talk about the problems she was having with the guy and how she felt about it. Seems like a stroll down memory lane, but perhaps she needs that.

Ultimately it is your decision, if you may help or hinder the suicidee, depending on the angle you take to support her just by listening and advising or end up becoming her go to person when she wishes to vent; although DirtySmilez is right in stating that there is no half measures, moreso when co-dependency issues can occur or cause a person to sink into deeper depression if they feel like they know too much too soon but lack people to talk to about these feelings.

I hate counseling others. But a friend in need, so... I just hope I don't have to do this for too long.

If unsure the best advice may be to host an intervention or recommend that she sees a counsellor, when the mind can be so fragile where she may risk another attempt due to realisation about loss of personal identity or problems changing her reality. In contrast one can never know true causes until they really care enough to become interested - most of all show sensitivity if the worst aspect about suicide is societal stigma where many still believe it to be an easy way of out... which it is not.

Perhaps I will recommend she see a real pro. Not sure how I'll sell it to her though.

I hope something has been useful to you and hope you realise that suicide recovery or self empowerment to see other alternatives, is not always a quick process due to the fact that people need to learn how to utilise support networks or worst case scenario simply admit a problem exists before it becomes nuclear (live or die, solve or fail, all or nothing) then acknowledge their own personal strength to accept that it is solvable or never final when life can change if people take tiny steps.

I fucking hate counseling others.

*disclaimer
Ultimately information offered should only be taken as incomplete, due due to lack of complete facts or absence of personal insight into true causes.

lol certified counselor much? code of ethics requires disclosure? :D

[Reicheru]

just gonna share some thoughts - you'll have to figure out how to put any of these across to her, though.

suggest to her to see a real counselor... nicely. taking on her problems could be lethal for you if she chooses to ignore your sound words of advice. (read: self-blame)

remind her of the things that truly make her happy. you say she changed herself for a guy only to get dumped by him. so, her sense of self is somewhere between 'lost' and 'shit.' put some meaning back into her life - revisit old memories, distract her with her favourite hobbies/topics, anything, basically remind her she still has a life to live and of who she is.
and if she takes her life, sure, it'll end a transient period of suffering, but there will be no more of those wonderful moments and in-between the hurt and suffering that's what we fuckin' live for dangit. if she doesn't kill herself now, she still has the choice to do so. if she just goes ahead and kills herself she can't change her mind because she'll be dead. there's no turning back.

basically: perspective, which is what she's ultimately lacking right now. she needs to see the bigger picture.

i don't believe people who are suicidal truly want to die. it's more that they want to hibernate through a bitter winter, and return once the storm is over. suicide is NOT a second chance or a resolution. it is a dead end and it solves bugger-all.

[Kyrielle]

My first thought was, "Why isn't she relieved?! She doesn't have to pretend anymore! She's free! Doesn't she see that?" And then I thought about it a little more, and you know, maybe she doesn't see that. Maybe being alone (without a boyfriend) is worse than being with someone who's horrible.

...maybe there was some weirder stuff going on other than just asking her to be submissive. Somehow, I don't think he was asking anything. He might have been out right abusive, which is terribly damaging to the psyche.

Anyway, she should see a counselor about what's bothering her. Something is wrong where she's not able to feel that the relationship is over, and, therefore, she can return to being her normal self. Who knows, maybe she can't remember what her "normal" self is. Maybe she's been wearing so many masks that she doesn't remember what's underneath. Hmm...anyway, this is serious business.

Does she have a friend that can be very tough about making sure she doesn't attempt suicide again? Like go through her apartment and throw out any painkillers on the premises, maybe make sure she doesn't go out and purchase items that could be dangerous to her person? Regularly come by and check up on her? Generally meddle and try to "police" her activities until she's able to get a hold of herself? Because right now, she's just like that hammered friend who's insisting on driving themselves home. Which is to say, not in any rational state of mind.

[Intricate Mystic]

Anyhow, she told me today that she attempted suicide twice. First time she took 50 painkillers. Second time she took 70 and was hospitalized. She's feeling very depressed because her boyfriend dumped her. She does love him, but the relationship has been having problems for a while now. She's been going out with him for less than a year, but they've been best friends for a couple years. She says that she had to change herself to meet his needs. She says that she's usually the dominant one in a romantic relationship, and this guy needed her to be submissive/compliant, so she became that. She says that it really broke her down as a person.

See, the thing is, I know her. She's not a chronic complainer. She's not really inclined towards depression. She's kinda happy-go-lucky. Very easygoing, cool with pretty much anything. Good looking girl, good natured. She has no problem at all finding interested males. She does have her insecurities (pretty much all 18 year old females do), but all in all she's bright eyed and bushy tailed. I ~know~ that in time, probably less than a year, she'll be back to her old self, and be perfectly fine.

She has attemped suicide twice and been hospitalized, yet you say she's not really inclined towards depression? She has clearly had very serious episodes of depression in the past. Even though she comes across to you as being happy-go-lucky, there could be other stuff going on underneath that remains unexpressed.

How do I feel? I'm not sure what I want to do here. I don't really like to meddle in other people's decisions unless I have a very good reason to. I could probably manipulate her into feeling better. I could probably manipulate her into reducing the odds she'll attempt suicide again. I'm not sure if I have the right to, though. And even if I don't have the ability, I'm pretty good at networking some INFJ advisor types to help me :D

Fuck, doesn't she have an INFJ best friend? Why do I get stuck with the heavy lifting? Of course, I don't want her to kill herself. There is a lot of joy for her to have. What I'm struggling most with is that it feels like I'm making decisions for her. I don't feel convinced that I have the right to intervene strongly (i.e. pull out the manipulation playbook).

Those professionals who do therapy have to use some sort of framework to help the person. Perhaps that seems manipulative to you but if it's done from a sincere and ethical place I consider it to be helping people. If you care about your friend and she seems to want your help, trying to help her isn't being manipulative- it's being a good friend. At the same time, I think someone who has attempted suicide several times should be seeing a professional in addition to getting support from friends.

[StElmosDream]

Does she have a friend that can be very tough about making sure she doesn't attempt suicide again? Like go through her apartment and throw out any painkillers on the premises, maybe make sure she doesn't go out and purchase items that could be dangerous to her person? Regularly come by and check up on her? Generally meddle and try to "police" her activities until she's able to get a hold of herself?

This area can often be the toughest to manage, when it sometimes seems people just need people around during low periods or the opportunity to 'grow' back into their old personalities with more wisdom. Ultimately like any form of depression people may need time gain perspective and see more positives with reasons why negatives occurred, while appreciating that blame or internalising may not be helpful methods of self management; when two parties were involved.

however as previously stated addressing root causes has to be the main priority, where people need to know support is available but not to be exclusively relied upon from one individual (unless trained), if anything I can't help but wonder if the suicidee has noticed a shrinking of social circles or potential SO dependency issues where they just kept spending too much time together in a toxic relationship habituating this as the norm.

@ feelings
Oh no I'm not accredited in counselling, I just tend to do much reading into practises, approaches, psychology, how people overcome issues and have been fortunate enough to professionally befriend my former counsellor... although I am still unsure what aspect of psychology interests me with the key choices being clinical, educational and counselling/therapy (still unsure on this one although people suggest I have a Ni talent for therapy, I still dislike non psychotherapy or psycho dynamic styles). Instead I just take a lot of interest in psychology if each specialism will require 4-7 years of self funding at masters levels.

[See Above]

Advice here from someone who really doesn't know anything about anything, but, doesn't usually let that get in the way. ;-)

Remember the stages of grief? She is probably in the thick of denial (1.) right now. You can help with the next stages. (BTW, You'll have to figure out ways to adapt this to an online situation.)

2. If you know the guy, or know enough/anything about him, make fun of him and ridicule him. Make sure she knows you do this because you take issue with anyone who would hurt her, and make sure it is funny. (Anger stage. She is too nice/too noble to feel it. You feel it for her.)

3. Bargaining stage usually comes next. You may get a little push back on your "anger" but it probably won't be coherently expressed. You may hear the phrase, "Maybe if I had..." or, "Maybe if I tell him....." or, "Maybe if I go...." Remind her that she already signed on to a bad bargain - not being herself, and that it makes no sense to be trying to look for anymore! (Gently help guide her through this part.)

4. Offer her a beverage of her choice and just let her talk your ear off about it. Listen and nod and bolster her self-esteem when needed and pat her hand when needed. (Depression/Mourning. This is her part. Let her mourn.)

5. Remind her of the good things that are still out there for her. Remind her of her successes, her good times, the kind of guy who is out there that would be perfect for her - someone better than this last one. (Acceptance/Recovery. This is the work of both of you.)

Anyway, good luck with this! You are a good friend.