What is NOT a manipulation within an interaction aimed at action?

Originally Posted by sprinkles

Admittedly. I can see how it could be taken that way. To me that is a loop because it uses the same criteria to determine what isn't manipulation. I'm not saying that it is black and white. I'm saying this doesn't let you actually determine when it is gray or not since the determination itself falls into gray, being part of a loop.

I take it as a matter of scale. You can keep zooming in until you see the black and white pixels that make up the grey, but you can also acknowledge that the overall impression is grey sometimes - though not all. And it's hard to zoom in when there is no focus. Kind of like law. There are general principles, and you apply them to individual cases - with, ideally some flexibility as to circumstance. And then looking at past cases can give some idea of how to deal with future ones. That's not really a loop. The same principles apply in all cases, but they are more and less obvious in terms of the actual data, circumstances, &c. In some cases the verdict is clear, in others it takes more work, and the sentencing differs. A bit of a laboured metaphor, but I think it makes the point clear.

It just seemed like an ordinary caveat to me. I'm used to getting criticised for not putting them in (Because, y'know, TJs are all narrow-minded and rigid), it's funny to see it the other way around.

Originally Posted by lirulin

I take it as a matter of scale. You can keep zooming in until you see the black and white pixels that make up the grey, but you can also acknowledge that the overall impression is grey. And it's hard to zoom in when there is no focus. Kind of like law. There are general principles, and you apply them to individual cases - with, ideally some flexibility as to circumstance. And then looking at past cases can give some idea of how to deal with future ones. That's not really a loop. The same principles apply in all cases, but they are more and less obvious in terms of the actual data. In some cases the verdict is clear, in others it takes more work, and the sentencing differs. A bit of a laboured metaphor, but I think it makes the point clear.

It just seemed like an ordinary caveat to me. I'm used to getting criticised for not putting them in (Because, y'know, TJs are all narrow-minded and rigid), it's funny to see it the other way around.

Well then we don't actually disagree. One minor difference is that I see things which are gray as overall being difficult to apply to even individual situations, and things which are nuanced as not necessarily so. No big deal.

Did Eylrid say that?

I got that impression but I can always be mistaken.

Originally Posted by sprinkles

Well then we don't actually disagree. One minor difference is that I see things which are gray as overall being difficult to apply to even individual situations, and things which are nuanced as not necessarily so. No big deal.

I never even heard of that distinction before, certainly not attached to those words, anyways. Interesting. I guess if I used those definitions, I would normally say "nuanced" rather than grey for most things, but I get called an arrogant twat for using "big words" often enough that I might just stick to saying "grey."

Originally Posted by sprinkles

I got that impression but I can always be mistaken.

I didn't really, but he can always come clear it up.

Let's put it in layman terms then, and i'll just go into emotional manipulation for now as that was where this originated from.
I also don't believe i need to cover manipulation since @Eylrid already did that.
So here goes my best attempt at emotional manipulation. -cracks knuckles-

-I have a heated argument with you.
-I'm not being logical.
-I only see my point of view.
-I say you don't care about my feelings.
-I make sure i try to find a way for you to feel my hurt/anger.
-I make up claims about you in terms of emotions.
-I back it with something i or you said about me in the past and i've kept it.
-I turn it around and make sure you feel hurt.
-I know how this fight is going to end:
It ends with you giving up, saying you're sorry and doing what i want. You can't argue, fight or say anything. I will find my way to turn it against you.

Does that sound familiar?
(i'm good aren't i? XD)

I think it depends on what kind of connection you have with the person vs. what kind of connection they think you have.

e.g. someone might care more about you than you do them, but they think it is all reciprocal. I find that in cases like that, they are less prone to succeed in overt manipulation but are themselves more open to covert manipulation. So it can reverse itself depending on the dynamic between parties.

Originally Posted by sprinkles

Well then we don't actually disagree. One minor difference is that I see things which are gray as overall being difficult to apply to even individual situations, and things which are nuanced as not necessarily so. No big deal.

Did Eylrid say that?

I got that impression but I can always be mistaken.

Say what, exactly? That there's a difference between grey and nuanced? (I never said anything about differences between them.) Where is the post that quote came from?


@lirulin's explanations of what I said are pretty spot on.

Here's my restatement of things I said:
Are you being deceitful?
Are you thinking of the benefit of the other person, or just yourself?
Are you being disrespectful of the other person's feelings, opinions, rights, etc.?

Deceit, selfishness, and respect are all nuanced. In some situations they're obvious (outright lies, for example). In other situations they're grey (using the truth, but twisting it, for example).

Manipulation thrives in the grey zone. When it's difficult to identify, it's difficult to combat.

If you want to know if you are being manipulative:
You need to take a really hard, honest look at yourself, your actions, words, and most especially your motivations. You have to approach it with extreme humility. Ask yourself: Am I being honest? Am I thinking about the needs of others? Am I being respectful? Am I willing to admit I may be wrong? Am I willing to change? Do I want to identify my weaknesses to improve? Or, do I want to justify myself by finding a way to say that what I'm doing is ok?

This is all very personal. You have to ask yourself these questions and answer yourself honestly.

(This post is not aimed at anyone specific, nor meant to be a criticism of anyone. It's just to help anyone who wants to take a closer look at themselves and become better.)

Well, I read the article, and as a type known for manipulation (INFJ) I can honestly say I don't do this. If I say I'm going to do something, I do it. If I don't want to do it, I make sure that's hidden. I don't sit around sighing (although I know some people who do that and it pisses me off!)

I don't see how requesting something is manipulation. The person can say no.

1) There is no use in trying to be honest with an emotional manipulator.

This is making excuses for something you've done wrong. I do sometimes catch myself unable to face my mistakes and I might briefly try to justify them, but it dawns on me that it's my fault and I accept that and apologise. And being stressed isn't an excuse for anything. I'm stressed a lot of the time so I make a lot of mistakes, but those mistakes are still my fault.

2) An emotional manipulator is the picture of a willing helper.

This is the sighing thing. I've met people who do it but it pisses me off.

3) Crazy making - saying one thing and later assuring you they did not say it.

I've never encountered this.

4) Guilt. Emotional manipulators are excellent guilt mongers.

Haven't come across this much and personally try to sort out my own problems. I might take about my problems but I genuinely don't expect people to do something for me and if they do then I am very grateful and show it!

5) Emotional manipulators fight dirty.

Nope. Rarely come across it either.

6) If you have a headache an emotional manipulator will have a brain tumor!

I guess you could do this accidentally, if you're really caught up in some problem of yours and something your friend says reminds you of it you might talk about it. But I think you need to watch that. Sometimes I do it because I'm too caught up in my problems and I always feel awful when I realise I've essentially stolen the conversation.

7) Emotional manipulators somehow have the ability to impact the emotional climate of those around them.

Nah, hide your emotions so they don't affect others. That's my policy. Besides, it's embarrassing to be so emotional that everybody notices it!

8) Emotional manipulators have no sense of accountability.

I do sometimes find it hard to face my own mistakes, like I said, but I get there eventually. Especially if someone reminds me!

So to the OP - it is exceptionally easy to go through life without manipulating in these eight ways. However, I do manipulate for the greater good sometimes. I will manipulate arseholes to do some good and I will manipulate people who are hurting others to make them change their behaviours and reduce the damage they are doing. But never for my own gain, that's immoral. Well = my way is probably immoral too, but at least it has a good side!