The Lucifer Effect

One thing I find fascinating about the infamous Stanford Prison Experiment is what is apparently known as "The Lucifer Effect."

I have always been a firm believer that we won't know how we will react in a situation unless we are faced with that situation and actually have to make the choice. We can know how we'd think we'd react, or how we hope we'd react, but how we would actually react is always going to be unknown to an extent.

That said, I think it ultimately boils down to character, the choices we make in daily life, and even how we've reacted and the choices we've made in past situations that have come our way.

The other point I find fascinating about this whole thing is that both guards and prisoners fell captive to their respective rolls, only one man truly rebelled. Was he able to verbalize what he knew instinctually was happening? Was he able to say "look guys, this experiment has gotten completely out of hand for reasons x, y, and z"? Not exactly, but he was the only one who truly rebelled. He was the only one who recognized the reality of the situation and acted upon it.

As I remember even the other "prisoners" hated him because he was fucking up the system, nevermind that it was all an experiment, they were so trapped in their rolls.

What does this say about humanity? What does this say about reality? What does this say for those who can't be bothered with anything other than status quo?

i highly suggest checking out articles related to the subject:

The Stanford Prison Experiment: A Simulation Study of the Psychology of Imprisonment

especially the pdf entitled "The Banality of Heroism" :

http://www.prisonexp.org/pdf/greatergood.pdf

what do you think?

Here is a lecture from the author, Philip Zimbardo, about how people become "good" or "evil." He talks about his prison experiment and his investigation in to Abu Ghraib.

I have his book here right next to me, haven't finnished it...

I think it's quite disturbing when you read some sick things that just make you stomach turn, even for an INTJ...


Like soldiers forcing an 11 year old kid to rape his mother at knife point while his sibblings helps and their father is forced to watch...

It's not a cover to cover book if you catch my drift...

That experiment was so disturbing. It's depressing to think about the depths ordinary people can sink to so quickly and easily.

I've not read this thread. But I just thought I would say that my bicycle is called LUCIFER.

of course the Milgram electric shock experiment is a testament to this concept as well:

Milgram summarized the experiment in his 1974 article, "The Perils of Obedience", writing:

The legal and philosophic aspects of obedience are of enormous importance, but they say very little about how most people behave in concrete situations. I set up a simple experiment at Yale University to test how much pain an ordinary citizen would inflict on another person simply because he was ordered to by an experimental scientist. Stark authority was pitted against the subjects' [participants'] strongest moral imperatives against hurting others, and, with the subjects' [participants'] ears ringing with the screams of the victims, authority won more often than not. The extreme willingness of adults to go to almost any lengths on the command of an authority constitutes the chief finding of the study and the fact most urgently demanding explanation.

Ordinary people, simply doing their jobs, and without any particular hostility on their part, can become agents in a terrible destructive process. Moreover, even when the destructive effects of their work become patently clear, and they are asked to carry out actions incompatible with fundamental standards of morality, relatively few people have the resources needed to resist authority.[4]

(emphasis mine)

Right away I knew it was like i failed a quiz
The man said do you know what a fascist is
I said yeah it's when you do things you're not proud of
but you're scraping by taking orders from above
I get it now I'm the face I'm the cause of war
We don't have to blame white coated men anymore
When I knew it was wrong I played it just like a game
I pressed the buzzer
I pressed the buzzer

so i guess what interests me most about all this is not necessarily the horrors of any single isolated incident, but the factors that create the possibility for those incidents to ever occur. what does this mean to us each individually in a time of world-wide political turmoil? how do we develop our characters with integrity strong enough to resist this "lucifer effect" that disgustingly shows an almost complete majority of people simply need to be asked in order to commit even the most unspeakable evils?

how can we live our lives differently so that the results of such studies won't turn out so grim?

how do we develop "the resources needed to resist authority"?

how do we hold the authorities in our lives to a standard of integrity congruent with our moral values?

Originally Posted by Mikbert

I have his book here right next to me, haven't finnished it...

I think it's quite disturbing when you read some sick things that just make you stomach turn, even for an INTJ...


Like soldiers forcing an 11 year old kid to rape his mother at knife point while his sibblings helps and their father is forced to watch...

It's not a cover to cover book if you catch my drift...

which book?

Originally Posted by Peace-3PO

of course the Milgram electric shock experiment is a testament to this concept as well:

(emphasis mine)

YouTube - Dar Williams - Buzzer, at WNRN

so i guess what interests me most about all this is not necessarily the horrors of any single isolated incident, but the factors that create the possibility for those incidents to ever occur. what does this mean to us each individually in a time of world-wide political turmoil? how do we develop our characters with integrity strong enough to resist this "lucifer effect" that disgustingly shows an almost complete majority of people simply need to be asked in order to commit even the most unspeakable evils?

how can we live our lives differently so that the results of such studies won't turn out so grim?

how do we develop "the resources needed to resist authority"?

how do we hold the authorities in our lives to a standard of integrity congruent with our moral values?

It's so true. Nobody wants to think that they would be susceptible to hurting someone else, even against their conscience, simply because a person of "authority" tells them to. How much more are people willing to do this if something is at stake, such as imprisonment or death, if they fail to comply?

Originally Posted by Shadow

It's so true. Nobody wants to think that they would be susceptible to hurting someone else, even against their conscience, simply because a person of "authority" tells them to. How much more are people willing to do this if something is at stake, such as imprisonment or death, if they fail to comply?

Excellent and important point. Wow. Seriously! I didn't even think of that!!

Originally Posted by Peace-3PO

Excellent and important point. Wow. Seriously! I didn't even think of that!!

In the military, failing to obey a direct order can result in imprisonment. If a person believes that the person they are inflicting pain on is evil or guilty of a crime, or a danger to society, they will be even more inclined to execute their orders.

If people in this country who are opposed to the increasing power of the government are deemed as "terrorist threats," then other people who are seemingly innocent or serve their country in a federal position may easily act on orders, which would otherwise trouble their conscience.