[Christie42476]

The very best person I ever knew was an ESTJ. He was killed a few months ago, just as our 20-year casual acquaintance had turned into a very deep friendship, and I'm still struggling with it. If he was a "typical" ESTJ (and based on what I'm learning, he seemed to be), then ESTJ's absolutely do have a very deep and insightful side. They just don't always express it the way other types might want them to or expect them to. That I tend not to have expectations in that regard is probably a huge reason why our friendship suddenly flourished the way it did when he tentatively asked for my advice. I never tried to foist any of my "emotionally analytical" tendencies on him, even when I sensed he was in turmoil. I just quietly made sure he knew I was there and let him come to me. To my eternal surprise, he did.

Based on my albeit limited experience, the kinds of "deep" conversations you're referring to are simply not where their primary focus of interest is. My friend was a doer, a decider, a person of action. He was also profoundly moral and deeply concerned with the welfare of others and living up to his responsibilities to them.

He confided very personal things to me and revealed a side of himself that I imagine few have seen, but the only reasons he did so were (1) he was going through a personal crisis, and his natural instinct when confronted with such was to resolve it in whatever way would be BOTH moral and effective, (2) the nature of his problem necessitated gathering the insight of others because he had zero problem with acknowledging when he was ill-equipped to handle something alone, and (3) he, for some reason even he couldn't explain, felt emotionally safe with me and suspected I might have a helpful perspective on it that he could factor into his decision-making process.



Without all of those factors, I never would have heard anything about it, but not because he wasn't a deep or insightful person. In fact, it demonstrated what I admire most about the type: it doesn't matter if something is uncomfortable for them to do...if it needs to be done, they do it. There was a ton going on inside him, but he didn't have a natural, compelling need to express it purely for the sake of expression. He had a very streamlined logical process.

As our friendship progressed, we were able to talk very candidly about philosophical and emotional issues, but they were always relevant to him or to me....so perhaps that was the only time he would have been interested in that kind of discussion. Maybe he needed it to have some kind of application to his own life or the lives of people he cared about...that I don't know. He was killed before we got that far, but, frankly, I don't think it really matters. The point is, there was enormous depth to his personality and character, it just wasn't loud or overt, and I loved that about him.

My take on ESTJ when it comes to communication (and please, any ESTJ's correct me if I'm way off base) is that they communicate what they think and feel primarily through their actions, and if they do verbalize it, it will be straightforward, concise, and honest. My friend preferred to approach things directly, candidly, and honestly, and he responded favorably to that approach from others. He had no patience or liking for hedging or equivocation (but could tolerate it in someone he loved and respected), and though he never had any trouble with how wordy I tend to be, he was rarely if ever wordy back. He didn't need to be. To date, he was the easiest person for me to understand, and part of the reason I joined this forum is to try to figure out why that is.

Everything anyone needs to know about an ESTJ is in the way they conduct themselves. Words are unnecessary, if one is paying attention.

ESTJ's are my very favorite type of people. They inspire me.

[WickedQueen]

Everything anyone needs to know about an ESTJ is in the way they conduct themselves. Words are unnecessary, if one is paying attention.

Perfect. Thank you.

[laly37]

I do enjoy a good deep discussion but like someone mentioned before you end up talking about death. At work I often trigger conversations or debates from something I say but I am rarely the one that keeps the conversation going. Also I do have sometimes my own opinion about things, and people end up telling me it's wrong to think like that. (i.e, I can park in the child and parent spot because this is a life choice unlike a disability, I pay taxes like them, so I can have the wide spot to open the large doors of my car)
Anyway, it often turns argumentative and i am accuse of moaning about everything. so not cool

[teddy564339]

I think it's definitely true that ESTJs want most that people can see and appreciate their efforts and hard work. I think it's something that I've done very wrong with my boyfriend, since I often tend to complain about it... :( It's just that whatever he works on is usually a lot of time away from me and our relationship hehe. But I really try not to complain. Besides, secretly I'm super proud of him. I've never met anyone with such self discipline. He can do anything he sets his mind to.

Btw, I've read a lot about how ESTJ can become very stressed and need support. But that's never really happened with my bf. He's so chill about everything, he's like neever upset or stressed.

I have an ESTJ friend that I deeply admire, and I feel very similar about him that you mention here. He is extremely chilled out and confident about everything...I never see him upset or stressed out. He's always seemed to be able to help me out with stuff, but I never feel like I can do anything for him return.

This whole topic came up some in this thread:

Dealing With 'Too Much' Appreciation?


In my post # 11, I posted a quotation from an MBTI book that I have. It discusses how ESTJs have inferior Fi, which can make discussing their feelings awkward sometimes.

When Feeling types talk about things they care about (their Feeling values), an expression of emotion may accompany their expression of the values involved. For Introverted Feeling types, the emotion may be somewhat muted, but it is still a way of emphasizing the importance of whatever is being discussed. Extraverted Thinking types may not differentiate between feeling as a judging process and a Feeling type's use of emotion. They may confuse using Feeling for rational decision making with sentimentality and emotionality. This occurs because they experience their own Intorverted Feeling as sentimental and emotional--as inferior Introverted Feeling. Being in the presence of Feeling values and emotion brings ESTJs and ENTJs uncomfortably close to their own unconscious Feeling and can disrupt or hamper their ability to be effective as themselves, i.e., as Extraverted Thinking types.


ESTJs and ENTJs report being quite uncomfortable with their own and others' Feeling judgment. "It seems mushy and chaotic and scary, not crisp and precise like thinking," said one ENTJ. An ESTJ described her uneasiness about expressing appreciation or complimenting others verbally: "I never know how much is appropriate. It always feels gushy." She found writing thank-you notes to be much more satisfying both personally and to the recipients, who recognized the genuine depth of her feelings.

I think what I've learned is that STJs often show their love through their actions rather than words or expression of feelings. I think with my ESTJ friend, I remind myself that he enjoys spending time with me, and that we have fun together. I remind myself that as much as he enjoys his work (and he's very into it, just like your ESTJ boyfriend), he also really needs time to enjoy himself with friends. He values this time greatly, even if he doesn't openly express it. He's just more comfortable doing things...talking about it seems to be pointless. It's like it's obvious to him that he enjoys it, so he doesn't feel a need to express it.

This does make me feel a certain emotional disconnect with him, since I value clear expression of emotion. But I think it helps me to remind myself that if he didn't value me as a friend, he wouldn't waste him time spending it with me.

As Fe users, I think you and I both can be swayed into doing things just to make them feel better. We kind of do things we don't really want to do just because we don't like hurting others' feelings. Fi users (even inferior Fi ones) tend to do more what they believe is right, and if they aren't feeling it, they won't do it. They're not as easily influenced by the emotions of others.


Obviously your situation is different than mine since you have a deeper relationship with your boyfriend, so I know that makes it frustrating for you. I also think your Ni has a desire for a much deeper emotional type of connection through conversation than my Si does, which deals more with surface emotions.


So I think this makes your situation more frustrating. Nonetheless, I think sometimes you have to just value who your boyfriend is and just understand that he probably shows love in a very different way than you do. This doesnt' mean he loves you any less, even though I'm sure it might feel like that sometimes. But I think it helps to remind yourself that he wouldn't stay with you for 3 years if he didn't.

I wouldn't bank on marriage changing this, though; I've heard a lot of people (particularly women) who feel like their partner will change once they get married, or even that they can change their partner once they're married. It seems like this never happens. Marriage isn't some magic switch that forces people to change.


This doesn't mean that both of you can't make some adaptations to understand and connect with each other more. I think you have to be careful not to badger him about it. I also think it's good for you to try to understand what's most important to him, and make sure that you value this and make sure that he understands that you do. When you do that, it might be easier to express your own desire for a certain kind of deeper connection and have him respond positively.


If you want, I can dig out my MBTI relationship book and tell you what it says about INFJs and ESTJs. But since I'm posting this two weeks late, I'll wait for your response before I do that.

[CasualFriday]

Get him in bed he will talk and talk and talk......

[KJo]

I do have deep conversations, but only with my two very close friends. I don't share my hopes/dreams/etc. with anyone who hasn't earned my trust. In terms of other conversation topics (politics, etc.), I will get into deep conversation if pressed. It pretty much comes down to the fact that I know what I think and why I think it, and while I sort of understand why a person might disagree with me, I don't really want to discuss my opinions with others. It seems like a rather pointless exercise when opinions have already been formed.