[hornet]

I've read this thread just now, gives all this a bit more meat.
Now I understand that my neighbors have serious issues.

Dominant-Tertiary Loops and Common Personality Disorders

I've underlined their symtoms.

ESTP/ENFJ: Se/Fe or Fe/Se--Histrionic Personality Disorder. This tends to manifest itself in terms of exaggerated, aggressive sexual behavior and physical impulsiveness. Since reflecting the outer world is the only thing that matters, whatever will shock, impress, or otherwise affect others enough to include the user in their social rituals is what has to be done. Real empathy is rare as this type requires constant thrills or conflict--in the ENFJ version, this often results in excessive sensitivity to perceived "rudeness" or failure to respect the user's preferred cultural custom (Fe), combined with tertiary Se responding aggressively through implied threats of brute force. (e.g., Vito Corleone: "I'll make him an offer he can't refuse"--gives a surface appearance of respecting the cultural standards of negotiation, but implies that refusal to accept this "offer" would be quite unpleasant for the recipient!) If Ti/Ni were doing its job, the user would find a sense of balance and comfortability with himself, granting him the ability to discover what is subjectively important to him, rather than constantly shifting with the tide of cultural and social trends.

ESFP/ENTJ: Se/Te or Te/Se--Obsessive-Compulsive Personality Disorder (not the same thing as OCD)! I've seen people mistake ESFPs in Se+Te dom-tert loops for ESTPs because they can be so insistent upon controlling their surroundings. These types epitomize enneagram type 8, as they are aggressive, blunt, confrontational and not the least bit afraid of hurting anyone's feelings. Inside they require the approval of others to a much higher degree than they let on, as Te insists on controlling and organizing external surroundings to ridiculous proportions, while Se pushes any naysayers out of the way with aggressive force and a take-no-prisoners attitude. Territorial and looking for any reason to display their power, these types are some of the most difficult to deal with of all dom-tert loops. If Fi/Ni were doing its job, these types would stop to consider that their actions have negative implications for others, and that aggressively taking charge is not always the best solution in every situation.

[Neon Knight]

I've read this thread just now, gives all this a bit more meat.
Now I understand that my neighbors have serious issues.

Dominant-Tertiary Loops and Common Personality Disorders

I've underlined their symtoms.

ESTP/ENFJ: Se/Fe or Fe/Se--Histrionic Personality Disorder. This tends to manifest itself in terms of exaggerated, aggressive sexual behavior and physical impulsiveness. Since reflecting the outer world is the only thing that matters, whatever will shock, impress, or otherwise affect others enough to include the user in their social rituals is what has to be done. Real empathy is rare as this type requires constant thrills or conflict--in the ENFJ version, this often results in excessive sensitivity to perceived "rudeness" or failure to respect the user's preferred cultural custom (Fe), combined with tertiary Se responding aggressively through implied threats of brute force. (e.g., Vito Corleone: "I'll make him an offer he can't refuse"--gives a surface appearance of respecting the cultural standards of negotiation, but implies that refusal to accept this "offer" would be quite unpleasant for the recipient!) If Ti/Ni were doing its job, the user would find a sense of balance and comfortability with himself, granting him the ability to discover what is subjectively important to him, rather than constantly shifting with the tide of cultural and social trends.

ESFP/ENTJ: Se/Te or Te/Se--Obsessive-Compulsive Personality Disorder (not the same thing as OCD)! I've seen people mistake ESFPs in Se+Te dom-tert loops for ESTPs because they can be so insistent upon controlling their surroundings. These types epitomize enneagram type 8, as they are aggressive, blunt, confrontational and not the least bit afraid of hurting anyone's feelings. Inside they require the approval of others to a much higher degree than they let on, as Te insists on controlling and organizing external surroundings to ridiculous proportions, while Se pushes any naysayers out of the way with aggressive force and a take-no-prisoners attitude. Territorial and looking for any reason to display their power, these types are some of the most difficult to deal with of all dom-tert loops. If Fi/Ni were doing its job, these types would stop to consider that their actions have negative implications for others, and that aggressively taking charge is not always the best solution in every situation.

You diagnosis for me is the same as mine by the look of it. BUT I have to lean towards OCD...the more shit happens the more I move towards it...what can I say? All of that one should be underlined really...maybe I should start my own mafia, I might be good at it, XD

It takes a lot of damage to get to this point let that be a lesson and don't let it happen to any of you...but then again if you let it out on here at all, depression hurts and you don't need to add to it in any way or anyone else to.

[hornet]

You felt hit by it?
I was analyzing my ESTP and ENTJ flat mates and not you!
No offense meant!

I see now that ENTJs AND ESFPs get similar symptoms
when having a underdeveloped secondary function.

My ESTP flatmate use Se, Fe I believe and the ENTJ use Te Se.
Creates interesting situations to be sure.

From this it would seem that working on Fi would be a solution for ESFP.

It is often hard to assign words to the values used to make introverted Feeling judgments since they are often associated with images, feeling tones, and gut reactions more than words. As a cognitive process, it often serves as a filter for information that matches what is valued, wanted, or worth believing in. There can be a continual weighing of the situational worth or importance of everything and a patient balancing of the core issues of peace and conflict in life’s situations. We engage in the process of introverted Feeling when a value is compromised and we think, “Sometimes, some things just have to be said.” On the other hand, most of the time this process works “in private” and is expressed through actions. It helps us know when people are being fake or insincere or if they are basically good. It is like having an internal sense of the “essence” of a person or a project and reading fine distinctions among feeling tones.

However that might turn the ESFP off reading...
A shame really!

[Neon Knight]

You felt hit by it?
I was analyzing my ESTP and ENTJ flat mates and not you!
No offense meant!

I see now that ENTJs AND ESFPs get similar symptoms
when having a underdeveloped secondary function.

My ESTP flatmate use Se, Fe I believe and the ENTJ use Te Se.
Creates interesting situations to be sure.

From this it would seem that working on Fi would be a solution for ESFP.

However that might turn the ESFP off reading...
A shame really!

This requires a bit of extra data.

None taken it actually what I've been lookg at lately and I just thought you found it so were pointing it out. I really do feel like that , I've been asking all over the place about the possibility and the more I think about and read the book I got on stressed personalities the more I wonder.

That's part of the problem, is that I've been asking but I can't get answers that I can settle on. The only thing I thought of is the difference between projecting an image or actually being that image someone is trying to project and that makes the difference I think. People who really know me might be puzzled to wonder why I think I would even ponder the OCD description but that's because it all happens in the head and doesn't come out.

At first I wondered if I could have misread myself and actually was ESTP but I really doubt it. It's even harder to figure out when you actually have all the stress signs that send you into an inferior grip episode (insomnia, stress, fatigue, illness...etc, etc.) and have depression at the same time. Putting all that together with what I'm reading is interesting at least but it makes me feel frustrated at all the roadblocks, because I was seriously reconsidering ISFP...again!! XD

It's also funny you mention Fi because that's the biggest reason I figured I couldn't possibly be ESTP since I have a ton of that and (if you go by functions tests results) almost no Ti, which I would honestly prefer, but that's irrelevant.

Incidentally, I was working on the one riddle yesterday that seemed the most complicated when I felt I was certain of the solution but I only figured out that there were 4 variables, not 5. I even made a chart of sorts to figure it out lol. I realized all this when I looked up to see if there was a brand of fish called any of the names that refer to what certain people smoke and got frustrated my chart seemed to be missing something. Then I saw it was an Einstein riddle and was actually mathematical, doh! Not my strength. I was going to give it another shot when I forgot the answer completely to see if I can do it knowing there are 5 variables and not 4. Probably won't work, but I enjoy the challenge in any case.

This ESFP still loves reading when it's relevant ;)

[hornet]

It's also funny you mention Fi because that's the biggest reason I figured I couldn't possibly be ESTP since I have a ton of that and (if you go by functions tests results) almost no Ti, which I would honestly prefer, but that's irrelevant.

The lack of Ti might not be an indication of not being a ESTP if that is the weakened secondary function.

ESTP
Ordinary is Se, Ti, Fe, Ni.
Weakened is Se, Fe, Ti, Ni
Stressed ordinary Se, Te, Fi, Ne
Stressed weakened Se, Fi, Te, Ne

ESFP
Ordinary is Se, Fi, Te, Ni
Weakened is Se, Te, Fi, Ni
Stressed ordinary Se, Fe, Ti, Ne
Stressed weakened Se, Ti, Fe, Ne

I'm assuming that the main function Se is strong enough to not be affected by stess.

You need to take account of that under stress you access your shadow as well.
Cause being weakened and accessing the shadow are to separate events.
And accessing your shadow may lead you to conclude wrongly about your type!
They may happen together, but that's not what we are looking for.

Imagine a relaxing vacation where all your problems are stripped away.
What functions do you feel like using then?

Only when we know that can we unravel this puzzle!

[Neon Knight]

The lack of Ti might not be an indication of not being a ESTP if that is the weakened secondary function.

ESTP
Ordinary is Se, Ti, Fe, Ni.
Weakened is Se, Fe, Ti, Ni
Stressed ordinary Se, Te, Fi, Ne
Stressed weakened Se, Fi, Te, Ne

ESFP
Ordinary is Se, Fi, Te, Ni
Weakened is Se, Te, Fi, Ni
Stressed ordinary Se, Fe, Ti, Ne
Stressed weakened Se, Ti, Fe, Ne

I'm assuming that the main function Se is strong enough to not be affected by stress.

You need to take account of that under stress you access your shadow as well.
Cause being weakened and accessing the shadow are to separate events.
And accessing your shadow may lead you to conclude wrongly about your type!
They may happen together, but that's not what we are looking for.

Imagine a relaxing vacation where all your problems are stripped away.
What functions do you feel like using then?

Only when we know that can we unravel this puzzle!

(I just thought of this, you poor INTJs only have me to study your opposite but hopefully finding some use lol.)

Hmmm. This might be easier than just letting grip episodes happen and try to figure out what's in charge at the time. And not as devastating, as I feel quite weakened physically. I am still having a hard time telling because of my chaotic mind needing to be cleaned out and everything around me that is appearing cluttered all of a sudden (Te, I lost ALL my messages in that process without meaning to, how frustrating! It's quite a hasty way I go about it) and also the (what I would consider the mos) out of control Ni) jumping to conclusions, they both appear it seems, hence my xSFP confusion. Letting a loop happen if it is isn't helping I don't think either, but I may be reassured that at least Fi and Ni are at least present if not functional. I'm not sure of the technicalities, but I believe a loop happens when 2 specific functions are shut off completely, and if that's not the case then it' because they aren't doing their job. You should read the book I am it's quite interesting, here's a link to where I found it, though it's not all accessible some really good stuff is:

Was that really me?: how everyday ... - Google Books

The unstressed and stressed functions you gave would actually possibly explain why things like Ne and Fe are high enough in my score to muddle the picture just enough from the test scores alone lol. But I'm not even considering that at the moment since gut says xSFP. Too bad when stressed we just don't turn into a healthy version of our opposites instead of unhealthy, I could get so much more done. I even read in the book about when we access our shadow that even if we've mastered and developed all our proper functions, you can still have grip episodes, which isn't very good news at least not as far as I'm concerned since I assumed that would eliminate the problem. Plus I think it would be a very useful function, I wish I had more of it when it counted. There's definitely a feeling from me that Ni is responsible for panic/anxiety attacks when highly stressed by all sorts of conditions, physical and psychological. Apparently Grip Episodes can last from minutes to weeks or more, I can vouch for that I think, not sure enough to say 100% just yet.

I'm copying and pasting this here to help get an idea of the experience.
I've added also the Grip Experience order that I have been reading about as well:

ESFP
Ordinary is: Se, Fi, Te, Ni

Weakened is: Se, Te, Fi, Ni (this here can I assume is a loop looking order?)

Stressed ordinary: Se, Fe, Ti, Ne (I bet I've been here as well, but I find it interesting that you'd need to be stressed to get here)

Stressed weakened: Se, Ti, Fe, Ne (I have been wondering if I've been using Ti and this might explain it, but at the time it didn't feel like I was stressed, just relaxing)

Grip experience: Ni, Te, Fi, Se (This seems to occur often enough which I have been poorly attempting to watch while in them, but I feel way too unstable to do that any more. I think it's the extraversion becoming intraversion and not being able to handle it yet. (Also in the book I'm reading).)

I find it really interesting now that there are 4 different stages I had no idea about. I think I can safely assume all of the functions are negative in form for anything beyond ordinary? Except maybe Stressed Ordinary where you probably feel fine but are maybe in any of the states listed in my last post (physical illness, mental illness, stress, etc.) but aren't FEELING stressed, if that makes sense :P Who's theory is it that has the 4 stages? I've never seen it before, it looks really interesting. Anything useful is worth giving a shot.

Your assumption of Se being strong enough to withstand stress is interesting because it matches my experience, which I again read in the book I am. I haven't felt much shaking up of Se but I DO feel shaking up of Fi. This not trusting of it is also something I read in the and wondered about ISFP being stressed btw, because it says you lose trust in your dominant apparently. The book was supposed to lessen, not add to the confusion XD, (oh wait not smiley weeks is over yay! Now I'm aware of just how bad I was, mission accomplished)

Now about this: "Imagine a relaxing vacation where all your problems are stripped away.
What functions do you feel like using then?"

Ohh that would be so nice! Se, without a doubt, it's my most favourite and would be the ideal choice. I can't imagine using anything else, I wonder if that's meaningful or just my lack of total function understanding. But what I CAN imagine is indulging my senses and looking for exciting things to do. Fi would assist in choosing what to do probably. No need for Te or Ni when on vacation, for me at least. I do enough of that at home now probably lol. I don't think I have enough of a handle on Ni to over use it but I THINK I am when trying to guess future events watching tv stories develop for instance.

What would you pick (I'm curious. You are being "analysed" a little bit as well, I hope you don't mind )? Oh when you talk of shadow you mean the 8th function right? I am aware at least of there being a few different approaches, some only accounting for the first 4 and others considering all of them. I assumed Ne was developed in me because it is similar to Se and in tests can't be really separated, at least not the keys2cognition one. But being long time stressed having developed it makes sense too. Apparently I've had depression since I was 10, that's a long time. There's just so much interesting stuff to go through.

Feel free to berate me on my lack of organization here, btw, it's a lot for me to sort out any better than this. And if I forgot anything important, I'm still recovering from last week's over-activity, so tired I could go to sleep now and sleep through the night probably.

[trice]

I'll understand the theory if I have too, but it sucks and it's no fun. I happen to have a lot of people tell me I'm very good at being theoretic, but gosh boring.

[Neon Knight]

It's not fun in that it's confusing, but, it's worth it in the end I believe. Can you believe I typed that much? lol

[trice]

I'm telling you Super, theory is fine and I've looked at it and I've delved in it but my Gosh, isn't there a point in someones life when they say I just want to enjoy my life not enjoy my books. It just seems like that's all I've been doing is reading reading reading and thinking .

I went outside and rode my bike for the first time in 2 years. My husband said, "oh my gosh you look so happy".

[Neon Knight]

I'm telling you Super, theory is fine and I've looked at it and I've delved in it but my Gosh, isn't there a point in someones life when they say I just want to enjoy my life not enjoy my books. It just seems like that's all I've been doing is reading reading reading and thinking .

I went outside and rode my bike for the first time in 2 years. My husband said, "oh my gosh you look so happy".

I'm there myself actually. The only studying I'm doing is MBTI. I used to be an avid reader, myself but lately I just don't feel like it. It's good to take a break, i had a good one before getting into this. This is the first serious endeavour I've taken in a while.

That's good Damn after a week of no smileys I'm too lazy to do them any more they way you're supposed to Letting go feels good, I know this for certain.