[nreynolds1990]

I know what you're thinking a hate thread on ESTJs from an NT type. Well you'd be wrong about that actually. I'd just like to talk about my own thoughts on ESTJs and give an actual honest opinion about what I think about them. The past few days I've been browsing the ESFJ board and reading some of the threads here and there seems to be some vitriol toward this type. I was reading one thread the other day where one member was claiming that there were a lot of ESFJs that went to his school that he didn't like because they just go along with the crowd and are complete followers and just agree with something so people will like them but at the same time he says ESFJs love to talk about their problems but if you give them advice that contradicts their judgements and feelings they get mad at you. Logically this makes no sense. If an ESFJ is driven to agree with everything just to have people like them then logically they should not offer up a fuss if you give them advice they don't like as they run a risk of not being liked for it. Another thing he said is that he is a jock and a lot of ESFJs at his school tried to get them to like them but he thought they were fake. Might I add this particular member was an ENTP and claims to be a logical thinker however I don't see how he was being logical. How do you know the types of the people at your school unless you tested them all? And if you don't like them I would think you'd want to stay away from them not say "Here take this test for me!" I've noticed a lot of people here do this with people's type here. If its your friend I can understand its easy to have a friend tested as its not that weird to ask them. But a co-worker, teacher, classmate, boss's wife? C'mon you're guessing you don't really know and in regards to ESFJ I think people just automatically put people they don't like into that box for whatever reason.

While I do agree with some of the complaints many people have about ESFJs like they have an external based moral compass, they can be judgmental, they can be manipulative, they can be controlling, and they talk too much I think all too often people are basing that on the description they have read about ESFJs more often than not because if you actually know an ESFJ I mean ACTUALLY know them. Yes they can be difficult to deal with sometimes and they can be frustrating and annoying but they aren't that bad like how they are presented here. I do know an ESFJ and I definitely know she is an ESFJ because I had her tested and this person is my aunt. And while I can tell you a lot of the complaints people have about her are true and they are pitfalls I can also tell you that she's generally a good person and she's not perfect but she is good and she is sweet. I have my normal family problems and disagreements with her but honestly she isn't that bad, I've met people that are a lot worse of a person than her. Anyways I think some people here take Jung and MBTI as gospel and they try to pigeonhole people with it. They see 16 personality types and thats it. But I can tell you that makes no logical sense. Even when you take one of those tests it gives you a percentage in each strength you have in each letter so it would make sense depending how strong you are in each function will determine behavior as well to some degree. Give you an example. I only know 1 ESFJ but I do know 2 ESTJs. My friend and my cousin. They are the same type but they are clearly very different. My cousin doesn't like art at all and my friend has a Bachelor's degree in Fine Arts, thats one example right there. So not every ESFJ is going to be the same just like not every INTP is interested in astrophysics, some may like pilates I don't know lol. But my point is I see a lot of pigeonholing here and I think its stupid. As my ESTJ friend said, MBTI and Jung is great for knowing about the person on a basic level and how they are likely to respond to different things, however thats about as far as it goes and if you really want to know about the person you have to do it the good old fashioned way...getting to know them.



Anyways sorry for the long post but I just thought I had to say that :/

[Tezkatlipoca]

I know what you're thinking a hate thread on ESTJs from an NT type. Well you'd be wrong about that actually. I'd just like to talk about my own thoughts on ESTJs and give an actual honest opinion about what I think about them. The past few days I've been browsing the ESFJ board and reading some of the threads here and there seems to be some vitriol toward this type. I was reading one thread the other day where one member was claiming that there were a lot of ESFJs that went to his school that he didn't like because they just go along with the crowd and are complete followers and just agree with something so people will like them but at the same time he says ESFJs love to talk about their problems but if you give them advice that contradicts their judgements and feelings they get mad at you. Logically this makes no sense. If an ESFJ is driven to agree with everything just to have people like them then logically they should not offer up a fuss if you give them advice they don't like as they run a risk of not being liked for it. Another thing he said is that he is a jock and a lot of ESFJs at his school tried to get them to like them but he thought they were fake. Might I add this particular member was an ENTP and claims to be a logical thinker however I don't see how he was being logical. How do you know the types of the people at your school unless you tested them all? And if you don't like them I would think you'd want to stay away from them not say "Here take this test for me!" I've noticed a lot of people here do this with people's type here. If its your friend I can understand its easy to have a friend tested as its not that weird to ask them. But a co-worker, teacher, classmate, boss's wife? C'mon you're guessing you don't really know and in regards to ESFJ I think people just automatically put people they don't like into that box for whatever reason.

While I do agree with some of the complaints many people have about ESFJs like they have an external based moral compass, they can be judgmental, they can be manipulative, they can be controlling, and they talk too much I think all too often people are basing that on the description they have read about ESFJs more often than not because if you actually know an ESFJ I mean ACTUALLY know them. Yes they can be difficult to deal with sometimes and they can be frustrating and annoying but they aren't that bad like how they are presented here. I do know an ESFJ and I definitely know she is an ESFJ because I had her tested and this person is my aunt. And while I can tell you a lot of the complaints people have about her are true and they are pitfalls I can also tell you that she's generally a good person and she's not perfect but she is good and she is sweet. I have my normal family problems and disagreements with her but honestly she isn't that bad, I've met people that are a lot worse of a person than her. Anyways I think some people here take Jung and MBTI as gospel and they try to pigeonhole people with it. They see 16 personality types and thats it. But I can tell you that makes no logical sense. Even when you take one of those tests it gives you a percentage in each strength you have in each letter so it would make sense depending how strong you are in each function will determine behavior as well to some degree. Give you an example. I only know 1 ESFJ but I do know 2 ESTJs. My friend and my cousin. They are the same type but they are clearly very different. My cousin doesn't like art at all and my friend has a Bachelor's degree in Fine Arts, thats one example right there. So not every ESFJ is going to be the same just like not every INTP is interested in astrophysics, some may like pilates I don't know lol. But my point is I see a lot of pigeonholing here and I think its stupid. As my ESTJ friend said, MBTI and Jung is great for knowing about the person on a basic level and how they are likely to respond to different things, however thats about as far as it goes and if you really want to know about the person you have to do it the good old fashioned way...getting to know them.

Anyways sorry for the long post but I just thought I had to say that :/

I slightly agree with you on the ENTP situation, it was a bit foolish of him to kind of assume "everyone" in his school was an ESFJ, then yet I don't see his side of the story so he might actually have some credentials to support this claim. However, it is possible to type someone without them taking the test if you observe them carefully enough, and as you've said some are more developed than others so it's not always going to be an easy task, but it's not entirely unsought of.

[nreynolds1990]

I slightly agree with you on the ENTP situation, it was a bit foolish of him to kind of assume "everyone" in his school was an ESFJ, then yet I don't see his side of the story so he might actually have some credentials to support this claim. However, it is possible to type someone without them taking the test if you observe them carefully enough, and as you've said some are more developed than others so it's not always going to be an easy task, but it's not entirely unsought of.

I don't put 100% weight in pure observation mainly because of the fact that I've been surprised before between what I concluded watching someone and what the test said about them. You would have to observe them really carefully and know exactly what to look for which I doubt you'll spend much time doing on people you do not like. I don't know about you but if I don't like a person I don't like thinking about that person, and if I do think about them I'm thinking about why I don't like them and what it is that they do that is annoying to me and why they are stupid usually. MBTI is the furthest thing from my mind at that point and instead thoughts of murder cloud my mind

But my point is I think if you don't like someone you're observation of them is completely gone out the window because now you're going to attribute anything you consider negative to that person. If you read the ESFJ description and that is the one you have the most negative reaction to or the site tells you NTs don't get along well with that type or whatever, automatically even if you're not aware you're doing it you're going to start attribute that negativity to that person if you're into MBTI because in your mind ESFJ = bad so if that person = bad then its fair to say ESFJ = that person. Thats what I think anyway, which is why I don't make definitive type statements on people before I give them the test. I just try to hit within the ballpark and sometimes I'll narrow it down and say "I think you're this" but I've been wrong before and surprised by it, especially if that person is unhealthy. I actually know a healthy INFJ and an unhealthy one and they are a world apart, and sometimes that can make the difference. Seriously you wouldn't think they are the same type at all. If you're accustomed to unhealthy ESFJs thats going to be what you're looking for and a healthy one might look completely different which will throw your radar for a loop and you may not peg them as being that type. Just saying.

You're right you can type someone if you pay carefully attention AND have a deep understanding of how all of this works. But come on I seriously doubt everyone here is an expert in psychology and has a PhD. This is a community of people with a general interest on the topic and as such I doubt everyone here is an expert.

[lenabelle]

This is what I love about you NTs, defending our type using your powers of logic and reasoning. :P I can't say I've ever thought of it that way before, but it does make sense. Lately, I've seen a lot of people portraying us as being overly sensitive and having a habit of picking fights over petty things. But one of our defining traits is that we strive for harmony and good relationships with others. Doesn't add up. Also, I don't know where our reputation for liking to stir up drama is, because I hate drama and avoid it like the plague. With all of this, I agree that ESFJ has kind of become the go-to category to dump someone in when they're perceived as unhealthy. Thanks for pointing that out and coming to our defense!

[Magnificent Bastard]

This is what I love about you NTs, defending our type using your powers of logic and reasoning. :P I can't say I've ever thought of it that way before, but it does make sense. Lately, I've seen a lot of people portraying us as being overly sensitive and having a habit of picking fights over petty things. But one of our defining traits is that we strive for harmony and good relationships with others. Doesn't add up. Also, I don't know where our reputation for liking to stir up drama is, because I hate drama and avoid it like the plague. With all of this, I agree that ESFJ has kind of become the go-to category to dump someone in when they're perceived as unhealthy. Thanks for pointing that out and coming to our defense!

I think, generally speaking, the perception is that ESFJs are well-intentioned, but they can be smothering because they dispense so much care, that they don't pause to think if it's appropriate or relevant to give. Sometimes there's a better way to do it, but they don't reflect on it.

ESFJs are high-energy and constantly taking action with people, so they're bound to do something that others might not like. Put simply, they put themselves out there a lot. This doesn't mean ESFJs are bad. I frankly find them quite angelic.

[nreynolds1990]

This is what I love about you NTs, defending our type using your powers of logic and reasoning. :P I can't say I've ever thought of it that way before, but it does make sense. Lately, I've seen a lot of people portraying us as being overly sensitive and having a habit of picking fights over petty things. But one of our defining traits is that we strive for harmony and good relationships with others. Doesn't add up. Also, I don't know where our reputation for liking to stir up drama is, because I hate drama and avoid it like the plague. With all of this, I agree that ESFJ has kind of become the go-to category to dump someone in when they're perceived as unhealthy. Thanks for pointing that out and coming to our defense!

Some of these have merit and I can see where the idea that ESFJs are "overly sensitive and have a habit of picking fights over petty things," comes from. Especially from an NT's perspective which a lot of people on here are NTs. Because NTs in generally handle criticism very well especially objective criticism, even if they were hurt by the criticism they try to separate themselves from those emotions and try to take some value at what the person is saying.

ESFJs are not known for doing that, ESFJs often take criticism personally like its a personal attack on them and they can sometimes lash out or break down in the face of criticism. This trait annoys NTs and its seen as petty and childish. But its interesting on here because this trait is not just an ESFJ trait, my grandma is an ISFJ and she also shares this trait, she likes to be reassured and she'll tell you she needs reassurance and criticism makes her feel bad. I would wager that this particular trait is shared by all SF types.

ESFJ takes heat because I think its the farthest type from NTs. A lot of NTs here are INTPs and INTJs I think those two are the most represented groups on here. ESFJ unlike ISFJ is seen as loud and boisterous which is not something NTs like if you are seen as saying nothing of value which I think they stereotype ESFJs as doing. They are not seen as intuitive like their ENFJ cousin so really I think a lot of NTs view them as idiots, actually all the SJ types are viewed as idiots by some NT types on this board. I've seen many rants against SJs as a whole.

Furthermore ESFJs have a reputation for being judgmental since they are traditional type people in addition they can be controlling and manipulative. All of these things can be true of the type, my aunt definitely fits this description. She can be a little bit too controlling and she does try to manipulate my INTP cousin into doing what she wants her to do. NTs don't like to be controlled at all. But some of these traits are also shared by other types as well and are not ESFJ exclusive. ENTJs have a habit of wanting control in their lives, ENFJs can be manipulative, ISFJs are traditional. But like I said, the former two are intuitive so many people don't peg them as being an idiot. The last one is quiet so you don't have to listen to them much.

But thats what it boils down to ultimately, is many NTs view ESTJs as being idiots so everything they do can and will be scrutinized. Since ESTJs are viewed as being in the idiot box anyone who is considered an idiot or unsavory is put in that box rather than being called what they really are, just another asshole. In all honesty it gets very close to what is known as bigotry.

That probably contributes in part to why there are not a lot of ESFJs here. People often don't go where they don't feel they are welcome, I don't care if you're the most logical NT that the planet has ever seen if you don't feel like you are wanted or welcome somewhere you're going to go away and find people that do want you.

[teddy564339]

Some of these have merit and I can see where the idea that ESFJs are "overly sensitive and have a habit of picking fights over petty things," comes from. Especially from an NT's perspective which a lot of people on here are NTs. Because NTs in generally handle criticism very well especially objective criticism, even if they were hurt by the criticism they try to separate themselves from those emotions and try to take some value at what the person is saying.

ESFJs are not known for doing that, ESFJs often take criticism personally like its a personal attack on them and they can sometimes lash out or break down in the face of criticism. This trait annoys NTs and its seen as petty and childish. But its interesting on here because this trait is not just an ESFJ trait, my grandma is an ISFJ and she also shares this trait, she likes to be reassured and she'll tell you she needs reassurance and criticism makes her feel bad. I would wager that this particular trait is shared by all SF types.

In a number of places this NT/SFJ difference has popped up, and I think it's a very large source of conflict between the types.


From the ISFJ perspective, I think this post really summed it up pretty well.


An ENTP/ISFJ Difference that I Still Don't Quite Understand

One thing I find in both ENTPs and ISFJs is that we both like to consider the possibility that we are mistaken/at fault when something goes wrong. The problem is that we do it for completely different reasons and often with different results.

ENTPs consider it in order to challenge our own perceptions and make sure our logic isn't flawed or biased.

ISFJs consider it because they feel responsible for the situations they are in. The combination of introversion, feeling, and judging makes the ISFJ (in my experience) fall into patterns of guilt . "If something is wrong in my life, it must be my fault, and it's my job to figure it out. I need to do something to make this right." Add stubborn people (ex: people blaming the ISFJ) and/or uncontrollable circumstances to the mix, and it makes things worse because there's a tendency to forget that what is immediately apparent isn't necessarily an accurate portrayal of the situation.

ENTPs have an easier time considering the possibility that they are wrong as well as the possibility that sometimes "...that's just the way the cookie crumbles." If we have looked at a situation in its entirety and have been unable to find fault in our logic, it's easier for us to become complacent. [As a result, I happen to believe the ENTP "character" that seems to have formed in this forum is an accumulation of complacency with our own logic further fueled by other people who think like us (whose opinions we trust), who continue to confirm that our complacency is justified. Top it off with arrogance for humor's sake, and you've created this golem animated by the idea that as long as your logic is open, and its pieces are externally justified, you are infallible.]

Example: "This is your fault."
ISFJ immediate response: "I'm sorry!" (Mentally: What do I do next to fix it?)
ENTP immediate response: "How so?" (Mentally: It could have been my fault in this way [...], it could not have been my fault in this way [...], and the whole thing was inevitable in this way [...])

ISFJs, I think, need to believe the world is a certain way, and they often can't help but think it's their job to make their lives work, whether it's fair or not. ENTPs will only feel that sort of responsibility if they believe it is fair for them to.

I think that's a good description of why ISFJs (and maybe ESFJs) tend to take criticism so harshly. It's a combination of Si wanting us to develop habits and keep things consistent, and our Fe wanting everyone to be getting along.


I think this is why oftentimes SFJs will view NTs as holding negative viewpoints all of the time, and why oftentimes NTs will view SFJs as being annoyingly positive. The NTs view the criticisms as more helpful because it leads to changes and improvement towards the ideal N state, while the SFJs view the praise/approval as more helpful because it builds on past important foundations. It's almost like looking at the same situation from opposite angles.

[nreynolds1990]

In a number of places this NT/SFJ difference has popped up, and I think it's a very large source of conflict between the types.


From the ISFJ perspective, I think this post really summed it up pretty well.


An ENTP/ISFJ Difference that I Still Don't Quite Understand

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I think that's a good description of why ISFJs (and maybe ESFJs) tend to take criticism so harshly. It's a combination of Si wanting us to develop habits and keep things consistent, and our Fe wanting everyone to be getting along.


I think this is why oftentimes SFJs will view NTs as holding negative viewpoints all of the time, and why oftentimes NTs will view SFJs as being annoyingly positive. The NTs view the criticisms as more helpful because it leads to changes and improvement towards the ideal N state, while the SFJs view the praise/approval as more helpful because it builds on past important foundations. It's almost like looking at the same situation from opposite angles.

It depends on the situation. If I fucked up, I'd want someone to be honest and tell me I fucked up not sing my praises. I may not like being told that and I rarely do at the time but I do think about it and if what they said holds any merit I will grant concession to it. I'd rather be told I messed up so that next time I know where I went wrong than to be praised, especially if I did mess up and someone is trying to praise me. To be honest, knowing that you did something well and the ability to be confident in it is satisfaction in itself. Praise is sometimes helpful like when you are doubting yourself its nice to know there are people who believe you can do it. But to sing the praises of someone all the time even when they are wrong I think is wrong. Praising someone all the time and telling them how good they are can lead to a massive ego boost which is undesirable. I'm not saying you should criticize everything someone does, they don't deserve criticism if they did what they were supposed to be doing correct. But you also don't need to roll out the red carpet when someone does do something right. A simple, nice work, or good job will suffice in my opinion. Unless it is clear they went above and beyond and exceeded expectations. That is worthy of recognition for sure

About your ENTP asking how it is their fault. I'm not an ENTP I'm an INTP so I can't speak for them but it would depend on the situation. That would not necessarily be my default position necessarily to question whether or not something was my fault or not unless it was clear to me that it was not. Therefore I think your characterization of ENTP is a bit off as NTs generally do not have a standard response for that, unless of course the ENTP is the type that won't take responsibilty then that will be a standard response

[Shadowlight]

My experience has been that either I get along extremely well with ESFJ's or extremely poorly. The older ESFJ's and I do not get along at all. Especially those old aunty types who are so stuck on living life a certain way and have no desire to be different, or even accept someone remotely different. I find the older generation's views too archaic and most of them hate it when I challenge their traditionalism to the point where I have been shouted at in public parties and told off in private to the point where I developed some deep insecurities about myself and withdrew for months at a time.

I tend to get along best with younger male ESFJ's (about my own age) especially if they're able to withstand and at least listen to what I have say even if they don't accept it. That said, I wouldn't doubt if many (if not all) of those ESFJ's are probably just basking in my attentions awarded as opposed to being actually interested in what I'm saying.

[nreynolds1990]

My experience has been that either I get along extremely well with ESFJ's or extremely poorly. The older ESFJ's and I do not get along at all. Especially those old aunty types who are so stuck on living life a certain way and have no desire to be different, or even accept someone remotely different. I find the older generation's views too archaic and most of them hate it when I challenge their traditionalism to the point where I have been shouted at in public parties and told off in private to the point where I developed some deep insecurities about myself and withdrew for months at a time.

I tend to get along best with younger male ESFJ's (about my own age) especially if they're able to withstand and at least listen to what I have say even if they don't accept it. That said, I wouldn't doubt if many (if not all) of those ESFJ's are probably just basking in my attentions awarded as opposed to being actually interested in what I'm saying.

Well on one site it says that ESFJs don't really have an internal value system and they develop their values externally Portrait of an ESFJ ESFJ is free to comment. This is very different from a lot of other personality types especially INTPs who develop all their values and convictions via introspection and often long thought out processes and reasoning. If this is true about ESFJs then ESFJs are products largely of how they were raised (which doesn't excuse them from bad behavior or bigotted beliefs btw) which would explain why you can get along with young male ESFJs who live in a world that is more liberal and accepting of others as opposed to the aunty types who grew up in a far more conservative much more religious time period.