[saslou]

Cute. But she's far too practical. lol! :) I don't get after people to do stuff I want them to do in a direct manner. I want to keep the peace and try to influence them toward what I want. And then have an emotional tantrum when it doesn't happen. LOL! Of course I'm not every ENFJ!

I can not be an ENFJ then because the bolded sounds a lot like manipulation. Personally i know i can not get someone to see my viewpoint however i am able to compromise without having a tantrum. If one does not get their way they should be able to still communicate without emotional outbursts.

Interesting. Thanks for sharing.

[bonfirequeen]

I can not be an ENFJ then because the bolded sounds a lot like manipulation. Personally i know i can not get someone to see my viewpoint however i am able to compromise without having a tantrum. If one does not get their way they should be able to still communicate without emotional outbursts.

Interesting. Thanks for sharing.

No problem! Of course I was exaggerating in the above scenario, playfully poking at the worst of what an ENFJ can do. A common thing that ENFJ's do is influence others toward what their intuition tells them should be done. It's typically not based on just plain practical facts. It's really not intended to be manipulation, but can be perceived as such and resented by non-ENFJ's. And ENFJ's do not take criticism well, so when you resist their "influencing" they can feel it as criticism and respond negatively. Their reaction is an immediate emotional outburst that will either be external or going on internally, and when it happens you can have a sullen person on your hands until they work the problem out. I completely agree that folks should be able to communicate without emotional outbursts. The ENFJ's can have a tough time with that as corrective or constructive criticism can quickly be taken so personally. One of our weaknesses.

But this thread is about ESFJ's! So forgive me, I won't derail it any further!

[saslou]

Ohhh .. Don't worry about derailing, this is interesting as apparently we have only one letter different.

So you will use your intuition as a guide to help influence others? Whereas i will get a sense of something off and act accordingly. I may tell the other person of the instinct i have and they can either listen or not. It is usually though about me and not someone else. I am aware i have no right to influence others, they have to take responsibility for themselves, although i can be there in a supportive role, i suppose. For example when instinct tells me someone is bullshitting me, i will call them out on it. Occasionally i may be wrong but usually i am not. So I've called them out on their bullshit, now what? If they don't agree with me, i can't do anything about it. So it is left alone.

I used to take constructive criticism personally but have come to realise of late that i can take it as fact or opinion. I am mature enough to take the information, find a quiet place and rationalise it. I am not solid but fluid in my thinking, so if someone can help me grow to a place of peace with myself then it's all good.

Of everything you have said .. What concerns me most is the word influence .. When does influencing someone become meddling, what if you have an idea (intuition kicking in) and the other person disagrees with your intervention. At what point are you crossing the line?

[bonfirequeen]

Ohhh .. Don't worry about derailing, this is interesting as apparently we have only one letter different.

So you will use your intuition as a guide to help influence others? Whereas i will get a sense of something off and act accordingly. I may tell the other person of the instinct i have and they can either listen or not. It is usually though about me and not someone else. I am aware i have no right to influence others, they have to take responsibility for themselves, although i can be there in a supportive role, i suppose. For example when instinct tells me someone is bullshitting me, i will call them out on it. Occasionally i may be wrong but usually i am not. So I've called them out on their bullshit, now what? If they don't agree with me, i can't do anything about it. So it is left alone.

I used to take constructive criticism personally but have come to realise of late that i can take it as fact or opinion. I am mature enough to take the information, find a quiet place and rationalise it. I am not solid but fluid in my thinking, so if someone can help me grow to a place of peace with myself then it's all good.

Of everything you have said .. What concerns me most is the word influence .. When does influencing someone become meddling, what if you have an idea (intuition kicking in) and the other person disagrees with your intervention. At what point are you crossing the line?

Wow! That is a GREAT question. The "manipulation" is more like we have some great powers of pursuasion, with good intentions, accomplished indirectly. It can be meddling at times. For example, I can tell (intuit) that my one friend is misunderstanding some truths about life, and it is hampering his judgement and causing him to suffer unnecessary grief in life. So I build a case and appeal to his heart to try to convince him of these truths. Am I meddling? Probably because I'm strongly trying to influence his thoughts. In my mind it's for the good, to help him see some things and live a more satisfying life. A slightly different example is that I used to ask another friend, "Don't you want to go on a walk today? It's so nice out!" When what I was really saying was, "I want to go on a walk today because it's so nice out, and I don't want to go alone." She would call me on it and say "So really YOU want to go on a walk. Why don't you just say that?" Until then, I had no idea I was communicating so indirectly and "influencing" her to want to go. The implication of the "influencing" was that I was putting it out there like it was HER desire, when in reality it was MY desire. I think it comes out this way because the ENFJ in the end wants it to come off like the other person wanted to do whatever it was, and be responsible for the decision, when the irony is that WE are exactly WHY the other person made the decision!!! So crazy-backwards! It's really not a good thing. The ENFJ usually doesn't like to self-reveal, that feels risky and unsafe because we fear confrontation. We want the other person to be on-board and move forward with us in a sense of "agreement". So we do a lot of suggesting and nuancing for that "agreement" to take place.

In reality, this is totally unnecessary. The most honest way of communication is in revealing where we stand and making our wants known openly rather than subtly, and face the risk of discomfort it may cause. I've been learning personally to overcome this silly trait. It's as hard as prying your fingers off an electric fence! You just have to trust that you can do it and force yourself to do it. And then it gets easier. This thread (I found on here) may offer more insight ENFJs & Manipulation.

I think ESFJ's have more guts. They don't seem to have such a strong concern over how they'll be received. They seem more interested in cutting the crap than being so gentle & sugar-coating things. They bravely face the bad emotions that may arise from making their position known because the ESFJ feels they did the right thing to "expose" or "confront" the fallacy. The ENFJ seeks to garner agreement in their winsome, magnetic way, which I think can be annoying to certain types. I believe Obama is an ENFJ, for better or worse.

[saslou]

Thank you for your honesty. Much appreciated.

When i started reading your post, my jaw dropped. I couldn't believe you was so blaise about it but coming to the end of the post, i am happy that you see it as a silly trait and are working on growing as an individual *thumbs up*

I wonder if this is why i don't have any NF friends (mostly NT's, love a rational mind and maybe some S's), i see when people are playing/influencing me and i won't stand for it.

My partner, bless him is an NF and i see straight through his projection bullshit and i'll pull him on it .. He has a choice just like everyone else .. Say it how it is or don't say it at all, just don't play games with me .. As mature adults we have a choice how we behave, we can deal with conflict in a tactful non-defensive manner or go in guns a blazing .. I've learned from experience the latter is not a good option, lol.

[bonfirequeen]

Thank you for your honesty. Much appreciated.

When i started reading your post, my jaw dropped. I couldn't believe you was so blaise about it but coming to the end of the post, i am happy that you see it as a silly trait and are working on growing as an individual *thumbs up*

Thanks, it's hard work.

I wonder if this is why i don't have any NF friends (mostly NT's, love a rational mind and maybe some S's), i see when people are playing/influencing me and i won't stand for it.

My partner, bless him is an NF and i see straight through his projection bullshit and i'll pull him on it .. He has a choice just like everyone else .. Say it how it is or don't say it at all, just don't play games with me .. As mature adults we have a choice how we behave, we can deal with conflict in a tactful non-defensive manner or go in guns a blazing .. I've learned from experience the latter is not a good option, lol.

Right, that's the very reason why I struggle with S or T personality types. They feel too "harsh" for my emotional needs. I don't naturally get the ooy-gooy feelings I need to feel valued, loved & understood. I need truckloads of affirmation along with criticism for me to not take it personally sometimes. It takes maturing to see the implications of my behavior; that they may not always be happily recieved, and that negative feedback from another person - someone rejecting me or having a problem with me - is to improve our relating because there's something I did that they didn't like! It's not a personal attack to tear me down. And rather than take it personally (meaning as a personal failure of my ability to make the other person happy, because the ENFJ wants most, for some reason, to make others happy with them), recognize that I have choices and can react more objectively AND be in control of myself so I don't do that crazy 'projection' thing. The more I mature, the tougher skin I get and the more realistic my views & reactions become. Still, the natural bent is always there, but I can reason myself out of it much faster and not become that martyr, thank God! :) AND I find my relationships flow smoother.

I think the conflict exists between the S and N personality type by default because the basis of the N and S is how you perceive the world; "as it is" (S), or "as it could be" (N), and neither type respects or willingly accepts the other's viewpoint at a gut level, because you suspect the other of not perceiving things correctly, thus the conflict. That's my opinion from my observations & experiences.

Thanks for discussing this. I am enjoying talking with you. (and that's the truth, no manipulation, lol!)

[bonfirequeen]

One positive trait the ENFJ has is a very keen eye on others motives that I think the ESFJ doesn't always perceive. I can sense a mile away a person with bad intent, a shyster (someone who acts in a disreputable, unethical, or unscrupulous way). My ESFJ friend is usually more trusting than I am and takes a person at face value. But she has a keen sense of the politics going on behind the scenes that I don't usually catch. I guess our opposite ways of perceiving things make us a good team.

[sarahtonin]

aaaaaaaargh I have an INTP boyfriend with an ESFJ mother. for the first several months we were dating she got overprotective and criticized me CONSTANTLY both behind my back and to my face. for example, she thought i had weird table manners and whenever we sat down to eat she would just stare at me, her eyes bulging out...

a lot of the time her criticism was concealed as caring, though. she started sending out all these emails about me to her family members about how she was 'worried ' about me because i might have -gasp - dyspraxia. which is a fancy way of saying I'M CLUMSY. she kept talking to people about how she was just concerned ... even though our relationship was great, was living on my own, had like a 3.8 at a top University...

she'd also be critical of me for not following 'house rules' that i had no idea existed, like which basket to put the clean glasses in. but she wouldn't tell me about it, just criticize me behind my back and hold a grudge. she'd also make backhanded comments about how my mother must have raised me.

...sorry to vent, this thread just brought back memories. i'm certainly not saying that all or even most ESFJ's are this bad; his mom's had a lot of issues in her life so isn't terribly psychologically healthy. but one day i just snapped and yelled at her and she never bothered me again

[MNiS]

The ESFJ friends I've had were never really critical, only really sweet and all to eager to give compliments. Even for things I didn't really think required being complemented on. They're awesome and I wish there were more ESFJs on this forum.

[saslou]

One positive trait the ENFJ has is a very keen eye on others motives that I think the ESFJ doesn't always perceive. I can sense a mile away a person with bad intent, a shyster (someone who acts in a disreputable, unethical, or unscrupulous way). My ESFJ friend is usually more trusting than I am and takes a person at face value. But she has a keen sense of the politics going on behind the scenes that I don't usually catch. I guess our opposite ways of perceiving things make us a good team.

Lol .. This is where i am completely naive, i do trust people and take them at face value and this blows up in my face as it did this week when someone who i work with back stabbed me in the presence of some big wig and that hurt. Oh well, shit happens.

I have to realise that people are looking after number 1, which makes sense and think the same regarding myself .. Not easy though.