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This is a discussion on Occupy Wall Street within the ENTP Forum- The Visionaries forums, part of the NT's Temperament Forum- The Intellects category; All we're saying, Souljorn, is if they don't know what it is they want, how can anyone give it to ...

  1. #101
    ENTP - The Visionaries

    All we're saying, Souljorn, is if they don't know what it is they want, how can anyone give it to them? Protesting needs to have an end goal or it's pointless. They don't have that end goal right now. And that's sad, because as others had said here, although some of their points are crazy, they are making a lot of really good points. And I as much as anyone hope to someday be financally secure and be able to live comfortably on 40-50 hours of work a week without having to work my butt off and still be unable to make ends meet. It would be nice if we as a society weren't making that harder and harder to do. But they NEED to have a clearly defined, clearly articulated goal to make their protests effective.
    Psychosmurf thanked this post.

  2. #102
    ENTP - The Visionaries

    Great article by Mark Cuban on what he would do with Occupy Wall Street:

    My Soapbox Advice to the OWS Movement and then some blog maverick

  3. #103
    ENTP - The Visionaries


    I posted much of this in another thread, but I think it's relevant to this topic as well.

    The financial sector employs more than 3,000 lobbyists, more than five for each member of congress. Between 1998 and 2008 the financial industry spent over $5 billion dollars on lobbying and campaign contributions and since the crisis they're spending even more money. I'm curious, do you believe it's fair that these people are allowed to spend billions of dollars lobbying to get laws removed/passed? If there is such heavy regulation as you say, why the hell would the financial industry be spending billions and billions of dollars on lobbying?

    The financial industry also exerts it's influence in a more subtle way, one most American's don't know about; it has corrupted the study of Economics itself. Deregulation had tremendous financial and intellectual support during the Bush era. Do you know why that is? College professors at some of the leading universities like Harvard, Stanford and Princeton actually taught that deregulation is good for the economy. Little did their students know that they were in fact arguing this point for their own benefits alone. The economics profession was in fact the main source of this delusion. Since the 1980's academic economists have been major advocates of deregulation and played powerful roles in shaping US government policy. Very few of these economic experts warned about the crisis. And even after the crisis many of them opposed reform. As a testament to this business professors at colleges don't live on a faculty's salary, and in fact they do very, very well.

    A few examples of these sort of dishonest academics are Martin Feldstein, Economics professor at Harvard and one of the world's most prominent Economists. He was also president Reagan's chief economic adviser and a major architect of deregulation. From 1998-2009 he was on the board of directors at both AIG and AIGFP (The company that gave out all those bad loans and then got bailed out, remember?) which payed him millions of dollars. There is also Glenn Hubbard, chief economic adviser to the Bush administration, and Dean of Colombia Business School. He was also the chairman of economic advisers under George W. Bush. Laura Tyson, who is a professor at the University of California Berkeley, was the chair of the council of economic advisers, and then director of the national economic council, both positions were held under Clinton. Shortly after leaving government, she joined the board of Morgan Stanley. Ruth Simmons, the president of Brown University, is on the board of Goldman Sachs. Larry Summers, who as treasury secretary played a critical role in the deregulation of derivatives became president of Harvard in 2001. While at Harvard he made millions consulting for Hedge Funds and speaking for investment banks. Frederick Mishkin, who returned to Colombia Business school after leaving the federal reserve co-authored a study in 2006 about Iceland's financial system and had this to say about Iceland's economy in the study, "The economy has already adjusted to financial liberalization, which was already completed a long time ago, while prudential regulation and supervision is generally quite strong,"

    When later interviewed about that claim, Mishkin had this to say, "Yeah, and that was the mistake. It turns out that the prudential regulation and supervision in Iceland was not strong." Of course, it's important to keep in mind that he released the study before Iceland's economy collapsed and retracted his statement after. There is also video evidence of him making the above quote, and he looks very uneasy while saying it, and when pressed he simply opts not to say anything more. It's very apparent that he knew regulation wasn't strong, but said it anyway to push for more deregulation. It's also important to note that he was paid $124,000 by the Icelandic Chamber of Commerce to write this report. He also went back and chanced the title of his report from Financial Stability in Iceland to Financial Instability in Iceland. Sadly, this sort of coerced academic dishonesty is much more common than people would like to believe. It's worth mentioning that whenever anyone does research on a topic, they do not have to disclose whether or not they have a financial conflict of interest. I could literally sit here and cite examples of this all day.

    Many prominent academics quietly make fortunes while helping the financial industry shape public debate and government policy. The Analysis Group, Charles River Associates, Compass Lexecon, and Law and Economics Consulting Group manage a multi-billion dollar industry that provides academic experts for hire, check it out.

    Two bankers who used these services were Ralph Cioffi and Matthew Tannin, Bear Stearns hedge fund managers who were prosecuted for securities fraud. After hiring The Analysis Group, both were acquitted. Glenn Hubbard was paid $100,000 to testify in their defense.

    I think it's masterful that the corporation owned media has gotten people riled up and pissed off at the government, when they are simply in the pockets of Wall Street. If it seems like the government is doing things that aren't in the best interests of the common man, it's because they aren't. They are being paid millions and millions of dollars by people, why would we expect them to look out for us when the alternative to looking out for us being being a filthy rich millionaire?
    Souljorn and possiBri thanked this post.

  4. #104
    ENTP - The Visionaries


    Quote Originally Posted by Devin87 View Post
    All we're saying, Souljorn, is if they don't know what it is they want, how can anyone give it to them? Protesting needs to have an end goal or it's pointless. They don't have that end goal right now. And that's sad, because as others had said here, although some of their points are crazy, they are making a lot of really good points. And I as much as anyone hope to someday be financally secure and be able to live comfortably on 40-50 hours of work a week without having to work my butt off and still be unable to make ends meet. It would be nice if we as a society weren't making that harder and harder to do. But they NEED to have a clearly defined, clearly articulated goal to make their protests effective.
    my whole point is we know what we want. to regulate wall street and higher tax for imports. That's what we want and need but the media is pushing that goal farther and farther away and since we dont have any face behind the movement the message gets lost.

    what is really irritating me right now is I remember the foundation now, steven colbert and john stewarts rally to restore sanity last year and it's upsetting me that they haven't support the group but that is just another example of how pervasive our corporate oligarchy has become in todays society.

  5. #105
    ENTP - The Visionaries


    Global Day of Rage peaceful for most | Reuters

    Sunday Global Day of Rage

    So it's clear now it has become a war of the people against bankers and politicians. What side are you on, I am about to be merciless towards people who disagree and treat you like an enemy because that's what you are. if you haven't got the message then you dont want to understand our RAGE and you'll FEEl it. Sorry but you're either for it or against it there is no more time for you to ponder...... You can say "well I like corruption and fraudulent banks playing with our savings." I'll respond with a swift bird. You're either with the 99% or you're with the 1% and guess what either way the 99% will reign supreme if it doesn't I am going to fly to washington d.c. and be arrested for shitting in the constitution.

  6. #106
    ENTP - The Visionaries

    Quote Originally Posted by Souljorn View Post
    Global Day of Rage peaceful for most | Reuters

    Sunday Global Day of Rage

    So it's clear now it has become a war of the people against bankers and politicians. What side are you on, I am about to be merciless towards people who disagree and treat you like an enemy because that's what you are. if you haven't got the message then you dont want to understand our RAGE and you'll FEEl it. Sorry but you're either for it or against it there is no more time for you to ponder...... You can say "well I like corruption and fraudulent banks playing with our savings." I'll respond with a swift bird. You're either with the 99% or you're with the 1% and guess what either way the 99% will reign supreme if it doesn't I am going to fly to washington d.c. and be arrested for shitting in the constitution.
    "Only a Sith deals in absolutes."

    - Obi-Wan Kenobi

  7. #107
  8. #108
    ENTP - The Visionaries


    Quote Originally Posted by MartyMcFly1 View Post
    *puts it in the row of tupperware containers for lost and found*

  9. #109
    ENTP - The Visionaries


    Okay so I found some videos I liked.

    Noam!




    Great interview, and she makes some great points. Glad I am not the only one that thinks this will escalate into fullscale riot.
    nothingnew, Souljorn and possiBri thanked this post.

  10. #110
    ENTP - The Visionaries


    @mkeath if Noam Chomsky supports wall street then I made the right choice. Noam Chomsky is one of my heroes

    If your interested on the foundation of the American corporate and business spirit read this book
    Propaganda by Edward Bernays (1928)

    It was wrriten by bernais the nephew of Freud and he essentialy made the media and capitalist system where planned obsolescence, greed and want are transmitted by the tv to the public and makes them believe that they need or want things trivial or unnecessary

    About it scalating into riots, it probably will in some places but truth is the slower those changes come the more frustrated people will become but I feel like the movement especially in NYC have Gandhi and Luther King as their role models and they didn't preach violence so that one ought to remain peaceful


 

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