[SpilledMilk]

I have matured to the point where I no longer find the need to argue just to prove I'm right; rather, I see myself as enjoy the dissection of concepts in order to find the truths inside.

But herein lies the problem: it seems to me that most other people don't really care about what is really true, nor do they really care about finding out what is true. They care more about what they believe, and also what they're comfortable with.

I've had several conversations recently which really made me ... despondent. Lately, in chatting with several individuals, certain things came up which I said with total sincerity that based on evidence, I don't believe those things are true.

Yet it appears that they and most, if not the vast majority of other people, are much more concerned with:

1. Being "happy" (or having a feeling of "happiness" or "contentedness");
2. Being socially accepted/not feeling weird
3. Being peaceful and not causing problems
4. Being comfortable

Truth, and the pursuit thereof, is secondary or even irrelevant to their lives.

This irks me to no end. Even when I try my best to be honest and forthright, it only seems to make matters worse. For when I was younger and argued for the sake of arguing, it was "cute". But now when I am serious about finding truth, people only run the other way. They change the subject or accuse me of being heartless, evil, or with some other pejorative.

I also have a hard problem finding NTs on my level. Younger ENTPs especially seem content with finding ways to be smartasses rather than truly pursuing a mature, truth-finding agenda (of course, I was like that once upon a time).

So in the end, I really have nobody to talk to about anything deep. Truth lies unfound in cages which others build. Thus the despondency.

Has anyone else felt this way?

Case in point (a bit long; you can skip if you want):

A missionary asserted (as part of a presentation to a Christian group, which ended with asking for a donation) that he felt obligated to go abroad in part because one day, a lady who he never knew and never talked to told him that he should go proselytize abroad.

The presenting missionary also related a story about another missionary whose family was ruined because they did not trust in God - this other missionary brought his family to Papua New Guinea to prosletyze, but was fearful of snakes. The other missionary then brought his family home to Louisiana in the United States, and lived in a trailer that was donated by his home church. One day, that missionary's children were playing around the trailer when one crawled underneath the trailer, ran into a nest of rattlesnakes and was bitten. The child screamed, and the missionary ran out of the trailer in response. He put the bitten child into his truck and quickly backed his truck out of the driveway. In his haste, he did not see another child behind his truck and ran that child over. At that instant, his wife ran out of the trailer and upon seeing two of her children severely injured, she collapsed and died of a heart attack. The presenting missionary said that this story motivated him to trust in God and go abroad, and that the missionary in the story suffered all of those ills because that missionary did not trust fully in God's protection (i.e. God will have protected them from snakes while in New Guinea had they trusted God). The group as a whole was "moved" as a result of his stories.

I spoke with someone who was also present, who is ambivalent about God and definitely not a Christian, and brought up the issue of whether the missionary was telling the truth about his stories.

I said that based on the missionary's body language, the fact that he was asking for donations to support his trip abroad, the hearsay nature of his stories, and the improbability of those occurrences which he asserted as causing him to believe in what he wants to do, his stories are not credible.

My fellow conversationalist (this is after we've left, and we were alone) responded with basically the following:

1. He believed the presenting missionary and the missionary's stories;
2. The missionary was doing good;
3. The missionary has absolutely no reason to lie;
4. I am a cheap bastard who didn't want to donate, and was looking only for a reason not to;
5. I (myself) am paranoid.

I said that he was changing the subject, since the original subject was about whether the missionary was telling the truth about his stories. My conversation partner repeated that I am paranoid and should trust other people more.

[MartyMcFly1]

I completely get where you're coming from. It's sort of the nature of the world outside of our intuitive bubble. I've found that most of the time honesty is not only not the best policy, but the worst policy. Especially when interacting with SFJ's (who typically want to maintain their inner peace above all else, even at the cost of an objective understanding) I've found that my objective honesty will make them see me as the bad guy or an unhealthy and negative individual.

I'm not sure if there is really solution to this problem that I could suggest. Lately I've resolved to let many of those around me make their own mistakes, get tricked/manipulated, proceed towards projects I know will fail, ignore large flaws in their immediate plans that seem obvious to me, and end up in relationships with people who are completely wrong for them because in the past my good intentioned analysis has offended them a great deal.

To most people the objective truth not only doesn't matter, but is entirely unwanted. As an ENTP the sooner you learn this, the better.

[MNiS]

That story pisses me off. Why the hell wasn't that missionary sent to jail for murdering two kids?

[MNiS]

Words, words, more written words.

I think an interest in the Truth naturally develops from an educated mind. Don't sweat it too much if you find that it's becoming increasingly more difficult to have deep conversations with others, as people become increasingly busy as they grow older.

So out of sheer curiosity, what is this "truth" that you're trying to seek? Is it a general sense of curiosity and assurance that there are answers out there in life waiting to be discovered? Well, welcome to life. If you haven't started school (I consider college the beginning of a person's schooling because K-12 is really that crappy here in the USA) yet, I think the world may just have another future philosophy major on their hands. lol

[grizzlyy]

Whether they want to discover the truth or not is their prerogative. In fact, it is probably a good thing that everybody is seeking for their own "truth." If everybody was a smart cynical bastard then the world would be in chaos. Absolute chaos.

I do agree with you in that I feel like most people are too indifferent to care for things they should care about (especially in the US). However, I do not believe that it is their fault. Finding the objective truth is not in everyones' nature, culture or upbringing. If you see an obese family, are you first to blame the parents or the kids for being obese?

Since we as NTs do believe in seeking the truth, then it should be our duty to advocate such. As in actually doing something about it. Do you see injustice in your life? What can you do to change that? How can you educate and inspire others to feel the same? Don't ponder too hard about the current human condition, it will only immobilize you. You are smart and capable of doing awesome things with other people, but only if you believe in them.

1. Being "happy" (or having a feeling of "happiness" or "contentedness");

How is not believing in personal happiness truth itself?

#2-4 Finding peace with oneself

Which are all essentially things that lead to #1.


Some people need to find out more in this world and improve upon it, others just want to live life and be happy.

[SpilledMilk]

...To most people the objective truth not only doesn't matter, but is entirely unwanted. As an ENTP the sooner you learn this, the better.

Yes, I've known this for a long, long time now. Thanks for the sympathetic ear. It's just that lately, as I see myself maturing, I somehow expected (unrealistically, perhaps) others to share my newfound maturity and honest drive for truth.

...So out of sheer curiosity, what is this "truth" that you're trying to seek? Is it a general sense of curiosity and assurance that there are answers out there in life waiting to be discovered? Well, welcome to life. If you haven't started school (I consider college the beginning of a person's schooling because K-12 is really that crappy here in the USA) yet, I think the world may just have another future philosophy major on their hands. lol

I was a political science/philosophy undergrad way back in the day. I've since become much more interested in Ancient Greek philosophy. I have a doctoral-level degree today, and work in a field where absolute truth is important. What I do today, I think, complements and sharpens my drive for what is true and what is unsubstantiated. So from even a purely career perspective, I've matured enough to put my ENTPness to good use.

Truth comes in two generalized flavors for me - an abstract framework of what is true and false in the world, and a concrete detail-by-detail understanding of what specific things are true or false.

So yes, welcome to life. I know that the world functions only as it does (for better or worse) because there is such a diversity of other personalities around. Drones and soldiers need to be lied to so they will sacrifice their lives to prop up the establishment. But is there really no way for those around me, as individuals, to have honest conversations? I mean, fine, don't make truth-seeking your life objective, but truth seeking in any form seems to be wholly lacking in the vast majority of people who just want to feel warm and comfortable.

...If everybody was a smart cynical bastard then the world would be in chaos. Absolute chaos.

I agree. But I think that truth-seeking isn't necessarily cynicism and rejection of the social glue. If, somehow, everyone was open to truth-seeking, then I suppose that being in general agreement of what is true and false, there will be cooperation towards the realization of truth-based actions. But people would rather be lied to so they can continue to feel good. I've even had conversations where people say things like "it doesn't really matter whether it's true or not". It really ... sickens me. Like addicts to their drug dealers, whores to a pimp.

...Since we as NTs do believe in seeking the truth, then it should be our duty to advocate such. As in actually doing something about it. Do you see injustice in your life? What can you do to change that? How can you educate and inspire others to feel the same? Don't ponder too hard about the current human condition, it will only immobilize you. You are smart and capable of doing awesome things with other people, but only if you believe in them.

That's the problem. Most people need and want to be lied to to get them to do anything. They want to believe - regardless of whether their beliefs are true or not (not just limited to religion). Show them the bigger picture and they get scared. I believe that I can get them to do what I want, but I will have to resort to manipulation which borders upon lying, and despite ENTPs being good at that, I really, really find it distasteful.

Is this a false dichotomy that I'm drawing? I can either lie/manipulate, the ends justifying the means, or I can tell the truth and achieve nothing?

[Joonas]

I had to make an account just to say that I love you as a person :o (First time I've read your writings btw.)

I wish I could help you chew on your dilemma, but I have hardly any experience with these kind of people.

[RockCandy]

I've given up on the objective truth when it comes to people. Anything that involves the opinions or feelings of others is going to be subjective to an extent.

Alas, I think the word "truth" has lost a lot of its meaning to me over the years. While I still enjoy intellectual pursuit of the truth, the truth about a certain person is lost on me.

[William I am]

@SpilledMilk: Yes. I've absolutely felt this way.

And I am also finding how much happiness, acceptedness, and a feeling of normalcy is important to me. But that never means believing something I know to be false, it means finding others who care about the truth and the things I do, and accept me.

I think that you, my friend, have merely discovered how sadly fitting the term Sheople is.

[StevieRay]

Truth usually involves a lot of discomfort; people choose to remain ignorant and it is interesting to watch the bliss they have in that state. Then a person comes along and threatens that bliss and points something out that might upset the apple cart. People can handle only so much truth at a given time; some more than others... The time it takes to lay the truth out (bit by bit) in bit size pieces, for them to swallow, is very arduous and time-consuming. There is a freedom of not being ignorant though and knowing truth; you aren't bound as much... I will pick freedom any day of the week over ignorant bliss.
So in conclusion: how much you compromise the truth directly correlates to how much you limit your freedom...