[Ray Mabry]

@Vel Hmmm...as I said in my last post you've set me in the right direction...but....I'm once again confused. Having INFP as our supervisor makes sense function wise being that they have strong Fi and can understand our perceptive function but I don't get the impression that my INFP friend is watching my every move.



I definitely don't believe we supervisor ISTJ's. I feel like we are both each others supervisor if that makes any sense. I have 2 ISTJ friends and the relationships are generally the same. I am critical of them and they are critical of me. There is an attraction as well however and we are generally forgiving of each other and can converse and understand each other fairly easily with the occasional hiccup in communication.

My INFP friend being MY supervisor though is confusing. There has probably only really one instance where she told me something I needed to fix and I felt conflicted to fix it...but generally I seem to be the one offering advice most of the time and I don't feel like she is watching my every move.

[Rugwyn]

INFJ, INFP, and INTP are great types, but the thing is, you can't base your compatibility on that alone. I'm in a relationship with an ISFJ, and it's a matter of striving to understand one another more, but we're also highly compatible.

[vel]

Thanx alot though for all of this information. That set me in a new direction that makes a bit more sense. Do you know of any websites that explain all of the type relationships correctly?

I have used Wikisocion for the most part - Intuitive Logical Extratim - Wikisocion. If you scroll to the very bottom of profile there is relationship chart there and you can click on all relationship definitions. Descriptions of Renin dichotomies are also pretty good - these explained to me why INFPs seem to speak more than INFJs (apparently they are declaring types who are prone to making declarative statements and monologuing). For all the introverts you should flip the last letter but extraverts stay same, so INFJs become INFps with our perceiving intuition being dominant and ENTPs stay ENTps. What I like most about socionics is that each function is given a certain role i.e. POLR, vulnerable, creative, etc. rather than order like in MBTI that many people then try to correlate to the 'strength' of the function. Seems to make more sense to describe it this way via roles.

This website have the right relationship chart but they have assigned wrong profiles to each personality type (their INFp profile is INFP in MBTI while it should be INFJ). If you ignore the profiles the chart is accurate: Complete relationship chart between psychological ("personality") types

@Vel Hmmm...as I said in my last post you've set me in the right direction...but....I'm once again confused. Having INFP as our supervisor makes sense function wise being that they have strong Fi and can understand our perceptive function but I don't get the impression that my INFP friend is watching my every move.

I definitely don't believe we supervisor ISTJ's. I feel like we are both each others supervisor if that makes any sense. I have 2 ISTJ friends and the relationships are generally the same. I am critical of them and they are critical of me. There is an attraction as well however and we are generally forgiving of each other and can converse and understand each other fairly easily with the occasional hiccup in communication.

My INFP friend being MY supervisor though is confusing. There has probably only really one instance where she told me something I needed to fix and I felt conflicted to fix it...but generally I seem to be the one offering advice most of the time and I don't feel like she is watching my every move.

Yes, I was confused about "watching every move" part too. While I don't have any close ESFJ friends, within my family there is somebody very close to me to whom I am a supervisor and I couldn't believe this person would feel like I'm watching her every move. Just didn't make sense.

From what I read supervisory relationships can unfold in many different ways and it will play out differently from if you just have INFP/ISTP friends vs. having wife or somebody close to you in family or a boss/subordinate in this relationship. Gender, age, maturity of supervisor as well as his or her type of relations to you all matter. Also from what I've read these relationships play out differently for different pairs so INFP-ENTP supervisory relationship may play out differently than ENTJ-INFJ one. Usually it plays out better if the 'softer' partner in relationship (F-type) is the supervisor over the T-type, because Fs are naturally conflict avoidant so F-supervisor will hold back from criticism more. I've read different accounts on how this plays out, from supervisor wives completely disrespecting their supervisee husbands to the point of physical abuse, so relatively warm relations. According to Wikisocion the supervisee will see supervisor "as an admirable but somewhat bewildering persona." So there is admiration on part of supervisee and attraction (admiration on part of ENTP for INFP), and it is not only until supervisor starts constantly correcting the supervisee that these relations can go very wrong. Supervisee then feels like he or she is being constantly scolded by this object of their admiration and at this later point is probably where feelings of supervision develop. But if supervisor is F-type and supervisee is T-type like I said this may have a very mild effect as F-type will avoid conflict and criticism and T-type will not be overly sensitive to it in the first place.

Btw it is not ISTJs who are your supervisees, it is the ISTPs. ISTJs are ENTP's semi-duals. Perhaps you need to find an ISTP friend to see what it feels like to be in position of supervisor.

From all sources that I've read and from what I have experienced myself what seems to be the constant factor in these relations is that the supervisor feels the need to rephrase what supervisee said in manner of his or her own dominant function. So for ESFJ in my family I found myself many times often trying to point out to her that this person she is complaining about now was acting same last weeks and last month also, so there is no need to always complain about them and always fall for the same trick. In essence I get a sense that ESFJ is lacking in ability to 'tally' people up over long periods of time and thus they get hurt by same people. They don't see the pattern. So I constantly want to insert Ni into ESFJ's way of thinking. However ESFJ is completely blind to Ni and it fact this is not how they deal with people problems. They don't need my Ni. To deal with people they rely on their tertiary Ne, do a slight recombination, move on to next opportunity. Ne is my ignored function, however, so only after thinking about this for a while do I see how this can play out in a rather bad way if I was a more pushy vocal person, always trying to give my Ni advice to someone who doesn't need it. In family setting I've held myself back many times from saying anything, because I see that my advice doesn't work, even though every time I develop a very strong urge to say something. In case of supervisor-supervisee relations it is said that it is best for supervisor to fall back on their creative (auxiliary) function, which is exactly what I resorted to doing even before I knew about MBTI - instead of offering Ni advice to ESFJ just speaking to her completely from my feelings.

I was reading this thread recently and I saw the same phenomenon. INTPs are supervisors to ENFPs. Notice how in what he says he is constantly trying to introduce Ti into ENFP's way of thinking, but ENFP doesn't need his Ti and other posters in the thread tell him to just that, that he needs to let her be her own person: My ENFP is a Love Machine

[Ray Mabry]

I have used Wikisocion for the most part - Intuitive Logical Extratim - Wikisocion. If you scroll to the very bottom of profile there is relationship chart there and you can click on all relationship definitions. Descriptions of Renin dichotomies are also pretty good - these explained to me why INFPs seem to speak more than INFJs (apparently they are declaring types who are prone to making declarative statements and monologuing). For all the introverts you should flip the last letter but extraverts stay same, so INFJs become INFps with our perceiving intuition being dominant and ENTPs stay ENTps. What I like most about socionics is that each function is given a certain role i.e. POLR, vulnerable, creative, etc. rather than order like in MBTI that many people then try to correlate to the 'strength' of the function. Seems to make more sense to describe it this way via roles.

This website have the right relationship chart but they have assigned wrong profiles to each personality type (their INFp profile is INFP in MBTI while it should be INFJ). If you ignore the profiles the chart is accurate: Complete relationship chart between psychological ("personality") types


Yes, I was confused about "watching every move" part too. While I don't have any close ESFJ friends, within my family there is somebody very close to me to whom I am a supervisor and I couldn't believe this person would feel like I'm watching her every move. Just didn't make sense.

From what I read supervisory relationships can unfold in many different ways and it will play out differently from if you just have INFP/ISTP friends vs. having wife or somebody close to you in family or a boss/subordinate in this relationship. Gender, age, maturity of supervisor as well as his or her type of relations to you all matter. Also from what I've read these relationships play out differently for different pairs so INFP-ENTP supervisory relationship may play out differently than ENTJ-INFJ one. Usually it plays out better if the 'softer' partner in relationship (F-type) is the supervisor over the T-type, because Fs are naturally conflict avoidant so F-supervisor will hold back from criticism more. I've read different accounts on how this plays out, from supervisor wives completely disrespecting their supervisee husbands to the point of physical abuse, so relatively warm relations. According to Wikisocion the supervisee will see supervisor "as an admirable but somewhat bewildering persona." So there is admiration on part of supervisee and attraction (admiration on part of ENTP for INFP), and it is not only until supervisor starts constantly correcting the supervisee that these relations can go very wrong. Supervisee then feels like he or she is being constantly scolded by this object of their admiration and at this later point is probably where feelings of supervision develop. But if supervisor is F-type and supervisee is T-type like I said this may have a very mild effect as F-type will avoid conflict and criticism and T-type will not be overly sensitive to it in the first place.

Btw it is not ISTJs who are your supervisees, it is the ISTPs. ISTJs are ENTP's semi-duals. Perhaps you need to find an ISTP friend to see what it feels like to be in position of supervisor.

From all sources that I've read and from what I have experienced myself what seems to be the constant factor in these relations is that the supervisor feels the need to rephrase what supervisee said in manner of his or her own dominant function. So for ESFJ in my family I found myself many times often trying to point out to her that this person she is complaining about now was acting same last weeks and last month also, so there is no need to always complain about them and always fall for the same trick. In essence I get a sense that ESFJ is lacking in ability to 'tally' people up over long periods of time and thus they get hurt by same people. They don't see the pattern. So I constantly want to insert Ni into ESFJ's way of thinking. However ESFJ is completely blind to Ni and it fact this is not how they deal with people problems. They don't need my Ni. To deal with people they rely on their tertiary Ne, do a slight recombination, move on to next opportunity. Ne is my ignored function, however, so only after thinking about this for a while do I see how this can play out in a rather bad way if I was a more pushy vocal person, always trying to give my Ni advice to someone who doesn't need it. In family setting I've held myself back many times from saying anything, because I see that my advice doesn't work, even though every time I develop a very strong urge to say something. In case of supervisor-supervisee relations it is said that it is best for supervisor to fall back on their creative (auxiliary) function, which is exactly what I resorted to doing even before I knew about MBTI - instead of offering Ni advice to ESFJ just speaking to her completely from my feelings.

I was reading this thread recently and I saw the same phenomenon. INTPs are supervisors to ENFPs. Notice how in what he says he is constantly trying to introduce Ti into ENFP's way of thinking, but ENFP doesn't need his Ti and other posters in the thread tell him to just that, that he needs to let her be her own person: My ENFP is a Love Machine

Ah, I visit Wikison quite frequently. Seems like for every single socionics site they got the types mixed up. Oh well. I guess when looking at socionics i'm going to have to remember that for the introverted types.

Thanx alot for all of this though. I really appreciate it and it is really helpful to me you have no idea!

I guess I understand it a bit better now. My INFP friend has alot of issues going on with herself on top of being F type so I suppose i'm less likely to feel psycological pressure from her becuase she isn't exactly in that position. But I do know a few other INFP's (although i'm not as close to them) so i'm definitely going to want to pay attention to our interactions when we do meet up.

Also, though, I thought that the POLR and the Vulerable functions were the same...Or am I mistaken?

and also yeah I like the way that Socionics does it too. I actually prefer the MBTI order of the functions. It tends to make sense to me even combined with socionics. I think that generally the order does speak to a "strength" but of a different kind. They all kind of work together and against each other so socionics does a good job of explaining it a bit more.

EDIT: HOLY CRAP! The description for Semi-duals is DEAD ON with the ISTJ/ENTP relationship.

[Ray Mabry]

@Vel

So, I was going over my friend's test results on FB and I noticed that I do in fact know my Dual and judging from her behaviors there's no questioning she is ISFJ.

Anyways, you were right when you said there was no spark. I was perplexed by ourfriendship in the past but it makes sense now.

When her and I first met at college I don't think she liked me very much initially. Mainly because me and my ESTP friend have such a vulgar sense of humor. However I naturally gravitated towards her and conversation was very easy between us so in time our friendship developed somewhat and she's even come around to my type of humor. Plus in spite of the fact that we haven't known each other for a very long time yet there has always generally been a high comfort level.

What was odd to me is that after she moved to Jersey she always keeps me in mind though whenever she visits and generally wants to see me probably even more so than friends i've known for alot longer. How our friendship has stayed within that comfort level and has remained consistent was always odd to me.

But I could never decide whether I liked her. On the one hand there is something about her that I can't explain. But on the other hand there isn't a huge spark. I think that she might feel the same about me as well but probably won't say it. I think other people generally see us as being good for one another where as we both are unsure of that.

Fascinating....

It's funny that we as humans conciously search for someone like ourselves but the types we are most comfortable with are nothing like us and are almost in some ways boring to us. It's like we're blind to what we truly need. It's so odd. I mean I always felt there was something about her but I didn't understand why because she seemed to not be my type.

[vel]

Ah, I visit Wikison quite frequently. Seems like for every single socionics site they got the types mixed up. Oh well. I guess when looking at socionics i'm going to have to remember that for the introverted types.

Thanx alot for all of this though. I really appreciate it and it is really helpful to me you have no idea!

I guess I understand it a bit better now. My INFP friend has alot of issues going on with herself on top of being F type so I suppose i'm less likely to feel psycological pressure from her becuase she isn't exactly in that position. But I do know a few other INFP's (although i'm not as close to them) so i'm definitely going to want to pay attention to our interactions when we do meet up.

Also, though, I thought that the POLR and the Vulerable functions were the same...Or am I mistaken?

and also yeah I like the way that Socionics does it too. I actually prefer the MBTI order of the functions. It tends to make sense to me even combined with socionics. I think that generally the order does speak to a "strength" but of a different kind. They all kind of work together and against each other so socionics does a good job of explaining it a bit more.

EDIT: HOLY CRAP! The description for Semi-duals is DEAD ON with the ISTJ/ENTP relationship.

I find Wikisocion got it right for their main descriptions. They also have some Russian author descriptions at the very bottom of each profile. Those seems to be a hybrid of related types so I don't go by those.

THe POLR and vulnerable functions are not the same. POLR is the inverse of the tertiary, vulnerable is the inverse of inferior, so to ENTP that POLR would be introverted feeling and vulnerable would be extraverted sensing. The difference I think is that POLR is like a triple blind spot, area that you don't readily see in others neither do you feel anything for it yourself. Vulnerable function is different in that you can sense that it is your weak spot, but I think PORL is completely ignored. This probably explains why somebody with dominant function that corresponds to your POLR and auxiliary that corresponds to your vulnerable is a conflictor to you. Not only are they thinking through this dominant lens that is completely invisible to you but they are also constantly hitting your vulnerable spot. But somebody with dominant function that corresponds to your POLR but auxiliary that corresponds to dominant function is a supervisor. As supervisee you will see this person as interesting and admirable individual in most cases. I think the difference between supervisory relations and conflicting relations is that the supervisor is not hitting your vulnerable function while conflictor is. With supervisor you simply completely ignore his or her main lens and talk to them via your dominant to their auxiliary. They feel need to correct you but you feel like you don't need correction in this area because it is the triply ignored blindspot in your mind. While somebody who is hitting your vulnerable function is likely to make you feel incompetent, like you need this improvement. It is like me watching trivia shows and wondering where is my Si but I don't feel any need for Te. ENTP most likely will feel no need for Fi but be vulnerable to expressions of Se.

So, I was going over my friend's test results on FB and I noticed that I do in fact know my Dual and judging from her behaviors there's no questioning she is ISFJ.Anyways, you were right when you said there was no spark. I was perplexed by ourfriendship in the past but it makes sense now.

When her and I first met at college I don't think she liked me very much initially. Mainly because me and my ESTP friend have such a vulgar sense of humor. However I naturally gravitated towards her and conversation was very easy between us so in time our friendship developed somewhat and she's even come around to my type of humor. Plus in spite of the fact that we haven't known each other for a very long time yet there has always generally been a high comfort level.

What was odd to me is that after she moved to Jersey she always keeps me in mind though whenever she visits and generally wants to see me probably even more so than friends i've known for alot longer. How our friendship has stayed within that comfort level and has remained consistent was always odd to me.

But I could never decide whether I liked her. On the one hand there is something about her that I can't explain. But on the other hand there isn't a huge spark. I think that she might feel the same about me as well but probably won't say it. I think other people generally see us as being good for one another where as we both are unsure of that.

Fascinating....

It's funny that we as humans conciously search for someone like ourselves but the types we are most comfortable with are nothing like us and are almost in some ways boring to us. It's like we're blind to what we truly need. It's so odd. I mean I always felt there was something about her but I didn't understand why because she seemed to not be my type.

Supposedly with dual relationships the main point is that you can be your real self around the other person. Many people are looking for partners who will accept them for who they are and not want to change them in any way and well dual relationship is that spot. There is no mask to wear. And I think whatever miscommunication that goes on has very positive success of working out because duals are likely to listen to each other and understand. I wonder though why there is no spark. I feel most spark towards people who form extinguishment, mirage, mirror, or relations of benefit. Guys who are my duals and semi-duals get friend-zoned by me very quickly. I also find it interesting that when people pair up with someone who is lacking their inferior function that they can start reprimanding their partner for them lacking qualities that this function represents.

[patria]

You guys keep babbling and babbling. It's almost like an NF drama, going round in circles, just without the emotions. Some of the lines in here are like an MBTI soap opera:

"It takes a very mature ENTP to realize that sometimes they do take things too far." ... "INFJ relationships still don't seem 100 percent satisfying for an ENTP"

Please don't take it personally, but that is so hilarious

[Ray Mabry]

They feel need to correct you but you feel like you don't need correction in this area because it is the triply ignored blindspot in your mind. While somebody who is hitting your vulnerable function is likely to make you feel incompetent, like you need this improvement. It is like me watching trivia shows and wondering where is my Si but I don't feel any need for Te. ENTP most likely will feel no need for Fi but be vulnerable to expressions of Se.

For me Fi is tricky. When other people judge using it I always seem to see them as selfish or sometimes out of touch. I don't see any need to use this in judgement because Ti and even Fe do a good job for me (especially Ti obviously). But I feel like I can sense Fi in other people because it irritates me. I agree though. Fi irritates me and Se makes me sometimes feel a bit vulnerable but can also annoy me. The positive aspects of Se which I believe would give me a better understanding of details and such...I feel that I need but I also tend to view Se types as impulsive or self-indulgent and some of their decisions and insights confuse me.

Supposedly with dual relationships the main point is that you can be your real self around the other person. Many people are looking for partners who will accept them for who they are and not want to change them in any way and well dual relationship is that spot. There is no mask to wear. And I think whatever miscommunication that goes on has very positive success of working out because duals are likely to listen to each other and understand. I wonder though why there is no spark. I feel most spark towards people who form extinguishment, mirage, mirror, or relations of benefit. Guys who are my duals and semi-duals get friend-zoned by me very quickly.

I guess there is no spark because even though there is understanding and one supports the other the two still view the world in different ways. My ISFJ friend and I generally like each other the way that we are. She's smart, giving and patient...conversation is good but it probably is only good because under the surface of all of that talk I am learning from her and she is learning from me. We are both relaying information to each other that will in turn impact each other in some way and see qualities in each other we wish we had more of (which is why we don't want to change one another). But ultimately I am driven in a direction by Ne that she is not.

Consiously I seem to be looking for someone that is more similar to myself....that can help me strengthen myself in areas where I am already strong and perhaps support me to a point in weak areas. Recently I realized that my friends girlfriend was Fe and I can't decide if she's intuitive or sensing but i'm leaning towards intuitive because both often joke about a psychic connection between ourselves and often will say the same things at the same time and we also have similar interests and the more I learn about her the more I see similarities even if we are slightly different. I think someone similar to her is what consiously i'm looking for.

I also find it interesting that when people pair up with someone who is lacking their inferior function that they can start reprimanding their partner for them lacking qualities that this function represents.

Sounds like this would describe relationships in which one partner has low self esteem or something.

[Sleepy]

It's tricky to mix MBTI and socionics. You CANNOT just switch the j/p for introverts to get the socionics type. Actually, often the socionics type and MBTI type are the same. I, for example, am ISFp (SEI) in socionics also. Second, the definitions of functions are different in socionics. For example, Si is not the same in Socionics and MBTI.

But if you want to learn more abot intertype relationships it's best to forget all about MBTI and just concentrate on Socionics. It takes time to learn and accept because the analysis of relationships is so much deeper in socionics. But socionics is correct imo, MBTI is just speculations.

I know several ISFp-ENTp dual couples in real life who are married. Another common pair is ENTp-ESFj (activators).

[bionic]

Socionics is DERP