[Feargarden]

So after two years of being with my girlfriend (an ISFJ), the differences in our personality types are really starting to tear at the relationship. I'm an ENTP, and so I think it is worth the effort to try and fix the rifts that are growing between us, but I need all of your help!

If you're an ENTP who is, or has been in, a relationship with an ISFJ, let's talk a bit about how one might go about addressing these fundamental differences. For the most part I still appreciate her, love her, and want to be with her about 80% of the time.

Is it possible to have a successful relationship between an ENTP and and ISFJ? What are the best things to work on first to begin reconciling? How do I convince an ISFJ to become interested enough in the MBTI profiles, so that she will want to engage in analyzing our relationship on how to make it better (I totally realize that is an ENTP thing to do, not ISFJ)?

Some of the top of mind issues that are driving me nuts right now (I'll save detail for later....so not an ENTP thing to do):

1. Not being open with me about what is going on in her life
2. Wanting to care for me too much, and somewhat bullying me to how she thinks I should care for myself (for example how much water I drink)
3. Impatience with so many things

There are more, but I'll leave it there......please tell me some of what you've experienced too...since she is an I and wont tell me everything, I know there is more to what is bothering her, but I cant read everything from her actions.



Just for kicks, I'm going to post this in ISFJ land too, and see if I cant get some dual perspectives, which I will happily share here if the convo is appropriate.

[affezwilling]

This was, is, and always will be a tricky thread to answer. I've been wondering the same things for the last few years. I'm married to an ISFJ and we're expecting our second kid now. I have determined that our relationship is like the analogy of the unstoppable force (I'm extremely determined) meeting the immovable object (she's very stubborn).

I don't know about your girlfriend, but my wife has self esteem and confidence issues despite being an intelligent and fully capable woman. Her entire self image revolves completely around what she perceives other people's image of her are and because of this she's extremely dependent on others. I think this is a common problem among ISFJs. She's also extremely afraid of loss (and by extension failure) because it interrupts the SJs need for stability. This fear of loss makes her cling even closer to me, which screws with my need for autonomy, which just makes me push away because she doesn't understand that she's smothering me. ISFJs tend to take this sort of behavior as personal rejection. I've been trying to get her to read more about the personality differences between our temperaments and cognitive preferences, but she has been hesitant because a friend of hers, who wast a very supportive friend, happened to study psychology. I've figured out how we each work, but she has yet to accept that I think strange, but that doesn't make me wrong. Then again I struggle to accept that because she refuses to do things differently (and often just flat out refuses to do things, period) doesn't make her wrong.

It's all very complicated, but to simplify you both have to learn to accept yourselves for who you are and then to accept each other for who the other person is. Don't try to change your selves for the benefit of the other person at the expense of your self and don't fall into a Pygmalion project. If you can do that then, for the love of all things holy, please let me know because my wife is driving me absolutely insane. The worst part is that, like you, I'm an ENTP and "I can solve anything, I know I can, and as God as my witness I will solve the world and fix all the things, dammit!!!"

[E_N_T_P]

My wife was ISFJ, I'll never know for sure because she died very young. She enjoyed taking care of all the things that I'm not good at. She could be very strong, yet cried quietly sometimes for seemingly no reason. She was fiercely loyal, which is more than I can say for most girls I've dated since.

[Feargarden]

Thank you both for your posts!

E_N_T_P, sad to hear about your wife passing so young. I think you nailed it on the head about what both attracts me and annoys me about my girlfriend. Ultimately being my polar opposite personality, she naturally is more attentive to all the things that I neglect. In the early stages of our relationship that was very appealling. I appreciated how she showed affection for me, and to some degree my initial love for her, made me want to become a "better" (more well-rounded) man.

However, as we have progressed in the relationship, more and more things have fallen into that category of things that she is more attentive to than I am. With each new addition, she pushes me a little more often to change myself to "take care of myself better." While initially we didnt live together, I was able to get a break from the "constructive criticism", now that we live together it just seems like things are more constantly being brought up. Of course being the ENTP I am, and needing to walk my own path, the constant critical remarks, and directives to do something promptly, are now driving me off a cliff.

She is a very strong person in her mannerisms and decisiveness, but ultimately when challenged she is fragile on the inside. When she is tired or emotional for femine reasons, she is very impatient and gets upset easily. Of course my natural reaction to someone being upset with me is "what right do you have to be mad at me now? and since I didnt mean you any harm, obviously you have mistaken my words for a meaning you created in your own head." So, once challenged on her being upset, she takes every word I say negatively and starts to downward spiral toward the point of almost crying.

I'm pretty strong in my Fe function however, and I consider myself fantastic at reading people's emotions/intentions irregardless of what words are coming out of their mouths. I've learned to cut off the downward spiral at the beginning and go straight to the "obviously you didnt understand my words the way I meant them, so lets go over what you heard and then I'll tell you what I meant." It helps calm her at the time, but its the frequency that I am having to do that, which is driving me batty.

I also agree that she is very loyal.........honestly it baffles me though, if she has so many problems, so often with how I operate in terms of chores and caring for myself, then why in the hell does she stay with me? I stay with her because I really only have one major problem with her, and that is that she has so many problems with me, so if she would just accept me for who I am, we would be golden in my eyes, lol. Im not saying there aren't other areas I would like improvement, but none of them seem to be deal-breakers for me.

affezwilling, I like the analogy. My girlfriend is certainly the immoveable object when it comes to following the rules. She clearly believes that structure and order are critical in life. Of course I would like to tear down a majority of existing structures and build my own, shiny new and of course better, world in its place.

I think my girlfriend does match up with your wife's self-esteem and confidence issues. Then again it may just be her need for structure, and her apparently intense need to be caring for herself as best as humanly possible. She has a divorce in her past, which is certainly contributing to the whole thing. Prior to the divorce she had fallen into a pattern where she did not care for herself well at all, and became overweight and in a bad temperment with her ex. The divorce woke her up from that pattern however, and within a year of the divorce she had lost 80 lbs and was the focus of her office on how inspiring it was for her to make that transformation. I would hazzard a guess that during that time of her life, she was probably the most healthy from a mental perspective, she felt like she was doing a good job of caring for herself, and was constantly being rewarded with compliments at the office.

I'm wondering however, how easy is it for an ISFJ to fall into a pattern of negative behavior for their personality type, because they are partnered with someone from another (maybe dominant) personality type? The reason I wonder this, is because once we moved in together she started to adopt my way of life, which meant a reduction and then almost elimination of her going to the gym (which she was previously doing 5-6 days per week). She also I think because of being with me, started to over-spend financially because of our salary differences. She never told me this though, I just know she is having financial issues now, even though she still wont openly bring up any problems for discussion. We recently took a break for about 3 weeks, and during that time she refound herself a bit, and started going to the gym again. I've been trying to be more efficient with finances myself, so I initiated an effort to eat in more often this summer, and I think that has helped her significantly on the financial front.

I will say that her need for stability is strong. In particular the stability of her relationship with her family. I am so ready to move away from the expensive suburbs of Washington DC, and start my life somewhere that I can buy a house for around $150,000 (I've targeted Raleigh, NC but am open for discussion on that, if she would engage on the idea of moving). However, she can not stomach not being within a one hour drive of her parent's house. She must visit with them generally once a week, and can not accept the notion of being limited to a weekend a month or something like that. I mean Raleigh isnt even far, its only 5 hours away, but that is too far. Then she works for a company where everyone is mass exodusing and she doesnt like the company, but there is little chance she is going to look for another job until she is laid-off. Stability, Stability, Stability.

She is defintitely giving me a little flack on the notion of needing to dive into MBTI as the way to save our relationship, but I'm at the point where I dont really care if she "wants" to dive in. She has got to understand my preferences better, and especially how the specific wording of her "constructive criticism" can mean all the difference in the world of my accepting or rejecting it. She needs to see why she can't order me to do something, or my response is going to be immediate defiance. She needs to see that if she appeals to my logic and allows me to make changes on my own terms, she may not always get what she wants, but she'll get more things considered more often. She has had exposure to MBTI before from the same workplace experience I had, where our department all took the MBTI once to try and improve communication in the office.

I think the challenge is going to be that the whole MBTI world is really more of an ENTP place to live. It is analyzing yourself and others for a better way to interact with them. I don't know that an ISFJ can conceptualize a better way of interacting. To them it may just be so black and white:
"I communicate based on how I feel, so since my emotions wont change no matter what, how can my communication style? Oh, and you baffle me with how off-based you act when you should be feeling this emotion....I know you have a heart, but where is it?"

I think ultimately you are right however, and I need to be very cognicent of creating a Pygmalion project out of this. If she is unwilling to embark on a journey of discovery on her own accord, then it will be better for me to end the relationship, than to force her to come along on my journey anyway. There has to be a good way to use her communication preferences though to show her the value. At least I hope so...

[Resta Um]

Is it possible to have a successful relationship between an ENTP and and ISFJ?

I'll be crucified for this, but fuck it: if by successful you meant pleasant and perennial, then no, it is not possible for a relationship between an ENTP and an ISFJ to be successful. Nor such a relationship between these types ever existed.

[Olmed3011]

To point out the "negatives" about my isfj experience does only produce more guilt or the feeling of hurting her still more. Yes, it gets to that point were my "bad" words only makes me go deeper into the mud. A guilt trip that never ends and a situation where you never seem to solve the issues you so eagerly want to dissolve but instead in the middle of what you thought was a 2-way conversation just realize that you are sinking further into the deep.

You want her to walk down your road, not all the way and not directly in your steps, but just give in a little against the fear of change and unstability. The problem is that it will never happen! And it seems so difficult to make her understand that you do not ask of much.

The one I knew/know make me see much potential. But honestly does an alliance seem frightening because of the friction that exist.

I used to think everything was possible. But when it comes to a relationship with an isfj I am not anymore so sure.

[affezwilling]

@Feargarden, So I've got some more light reading for you on the subject, bear with me it may get a bit long. Hopefully all the links below will work.

The first excerpt is actually written for INTP/ISFJ relationships, but I think the concept can be applied to most NTP/SFJ relationships.

Here is something that I found a long time ago written from an INTP perspective of the INTP/ISFJ relationship:

" IGANOKAMI'S GUIDE TO THE ISFJ FEMALE: "After reading all the posts on the subject, and my own experience, I have figured out just what goes on at the start for both parties to create a (fatal) relationship between these two tragic enemies, the INTP male and the ISFJ female. Here is my rough guide."

By Iganokami

Phase one: Misperception in attraction
Phase 1-A - At this phase, lasting from the very start to approximately six months to 1.5 years, each party is misunderstanding the other. The INTP sees someone who is very caring and happy and physical and always happy to please. The INTP believes that the ISFJ enjoys pleasing the INTP. The INTP is happy, because he feels loved, and he feels his love is appreciated. For the INTP, the ISFJ is always around, always helping, always hovering, always ready to give. The ISFJ sees a man who is sort of out of place, out of phase, like a lost puppy. The ISFJ wants to mother the puppy, do everything for the puppy, and be loved by the puppy. She loves to do things for her puppy, she wants to nurture it, and she gains love from the appreciation.

Phase 1-B - Eventually, the "puppy" (INTP male) will grow up into a confident and independent dog. The INTP no longer needs the ISFJs smothering "nurturing", and will start to feel smothered and trapped by it, and out of pure instinct will need to get away from it now and then. To the ISFJ, the INTP need to "be alone" is UTTERLY foreign and offensive, an affront to the nurture they work so hard and sacrifice so much for. The ISFJ feels the INTP is taking them for granted, abusing them, and doesnt love them anymore. On the INTPs behalf, he wants to be able to do things on his own now and then, and cant comprehend actions that seem to say "if you dont do <fill in the blank> with me, you dont love me". HOWEVER, an ISFJ will NEVER SAY this, but all of her actions scream this, and the INTP starts to get depressed.

Phase two: Misplaced effort and negative reinforcement

Phase 2-A - The INTP suddenly feels like he is doing something wrong, but has no idea what it is, and the ISFJ will never reveal what is going on except through random outburts and actions. The INTP decides that he must conform to what the ISFJ seems to want. However, the ISFJ herself doesnt know what she wants, so the poor INTP man gets mentally abused by the ISFJ, through constant severe negative reinforcement. EVERYTHING the INTP does is WRONG, so the INTP man tries to change EVERYTHING. However, for every gain, for every single habit, need and want the INTP changes or throws away for the ISFJ, it is never enough, and eventually, the INTP man is nothing but an empty shell, a zombie that has thrown his entire life, interests, hobbies, dreams, and feelings, away, in the hopes that "maybe she'll change". But she doesnt. The INTP male NEEDS to have time alone, and the ISFJ is utterly incapable of understanding this, so no matter how much the INTP man changes, more is demanded of him that he cant meet, which only proves to the ISFJ that she is hated.

Phase three: End result

Phase 3-A - The INTP throws away everything that makes him who he is to please this vile creature, yet the ISFJ does absolutely nothing to change at all. The ISFJ feels that she is the victim, that she is unloved by the INTP. The INTP has tried to love her, probably convinced himself that he does, and has tricked himself into believing this, with things like "maybe things will change" and "maybe she does really love me" etc. The INTP male tries for a long time to change for her, but at the same time is pushed and pushed away by mental abuse and negative reinforcement. The ISFJs strongest weapon is to make the INTP feel utterly and completely unloved in the relationship. If she accomplishes this, the INTP is easier to manipulate, because even the slightest smile or a 24 hour period of not getting yelled at is an improvement, and the INTP uses the Ne to say "maybe it isnt so bad after all", until the next time she flips out in a screaming crying fit because the INTP forgot to wipe the coffee drops off the counter after making coffee in the morning, or perhaps he didnt come the instant she called for him while he was sitting at the computer. Or maybe he said he didnt feel like going to the store "right now". Regardless, the INTP is slowly crushed until he is so broken, he stays in the relationship because there is nothing left of him. He has been broken. Or he breaks the other way, and ends it. As was stated in a prior post, suddenly the ISFJ decides she will change, but not because she was doing anything wrong in the first place, but because it just confirms her martyr status. So now, if the INTP stays, the ISFJ becomes the victim, because the INTP will no longer put up with any of the insanity of the ISFJ. The ISFJ will feel as isolated as ever, confirming her martyrhood for once and for all."

I think pretty much every ENTP on this site that has dated an ISFJ will agree with this. The biggest difference is that where the INTP will passively attempt to come up with solutions, the ENTP will take a much more assertive stance and therefore is much more likely to call out the ISFJ on her bullshit.

Does this seem somehow familiar to you? -



The chorus of this song really sticks out

So tell me now
If this ain't love then how do we get out?
Because I don't know
That's when she said I don't hate you boy
I just want to save you while there's still something left to save
That's when I told her I love you girl
But I'm not the answer for the questions that you still have

SFJs seem to have this hero complex where they need to save people and NTPs tend to be so deep down the rabbit hole that we seem to be prime examples of people that need someone to guide us back. What the SFJ doesn't realize is that we're not lost, we actually belong on the other side of the looking glass.

If it's going to work the SFJ needs to understand this about the NTP.

Conceptualists

and they need to understand this about themselves

Keirsey's PersonalityZone - Personality and Your Relationships

Of course it wouldn't hurt for you to try to keep this in mind -

Traditionalists

And try to remember this too -

Keirsey's PersonalityZone - In the LoveZone: How (Not) To Annoy Your Non-Rational Partner

If either one of you can't acknowledge who you are, who the other person is, and the differences between you then there's no way in hell to make an SJ/NT relationship work without doing some serious psychological damage. I believe @Psyphon would know about that.

[Olmed3011]

Affezwilling: phase 2 and 3, hits a home run!

[SlowPoke68]

I'm currently being stalked by an ESFJ. Not exactly what you're talking about, but I figured I would chime in.

Very attractive woman in her late '40's. I don't know how she's gotten to think we're in a relationship considering we haven't really had a proper date and have done nothing physical. Our conversations have been pretty limited to just "nice" topics. She seems to really like me when I'm in public mode and treating her like a guest--and that's a bad sign. I don't think she can handle the barbed-wit me, the insecure-ranting me, the just-gonna-tune-you-out-for-awhile me, the you're-just-my-audience me. Not many normal people can, and the only one who's been able to thrive in that atmosphere is another ENTP who effectively rubs my nose in my own narcissism.

I feel a need to de-escalate with this lady, even before I have sex with her. I am afraid she's got the wrong idea, and it's almost as bad as being with an INFP.

[Feargarden]

Thank you again to all for the responses!

Resta Um, while I am more and more coming over to your side on this one, I haven't quite gotten to the point where I can agree with an absolute "no way it can happen". You may very well be correct, but unfortunetly I think I have a bit more time in the gauntlet before I can completely agree. Time of course will tell all.

Olamed, you of course reinforce what Resta Um said, and essentially that makes me lean even a bit more toward the impossibility argument. I think I will need to give this one more month of trying though before I can abandon the relationship confident that it was the right choice.

affezwilling......dude, seriously? You ROCK! Great resources, and just about perfect in their descriptions. The only thing that I disagree with in the Conceptualist David Markley article, is his description of my sexual tendancies. I am in no way shape or form conservative with my sexual preferences as suggested. I will openly discuss my sex life, and do on a regular basis, almost to the point where I can make people blush who are having the conversation with me. I am for the most part an open book. I also am one who while I suck at the initial approach to women in bars/clubs/social settings, if a woman is introduced to me through something, I am usually able to create a connection. Sexual promiscuity is not frowned upon in my view, within reason (maybe 3-5 partners per year when single).

Other than that, the articles seem fantastic and are most likely the ones I will use to start this conversation. If the opportunity seems ripe tonight, we will see if she is willing to even engage in the process. The appreciative piece is that at least the articles all talk about things from the perspective of what we appreciate and what we can not accept. They leave hope for a reconciliation, provided that both partners are willing to make a level of concession. So, the question will ultimately be, is she going to be willing to have this conversation, and if we do have it, can she deal with the differences presented in a way that she might see a benefit to addressing them. Time will tell.

All of that said however, the phases of downfall of the INTP/ISFJ relationship, ring extrodinarily true, and I would say we are well into phase II......I dont think we are in phase III yet, and I am going to be well aware of that phase when feeling like I am giving up too much. I will attribute a failure here to personality differences and not that I havent given up enough to make things work out. I realize that I should not have to give up everything, and I also will demand equal investment in an attempt to reconcile. If she can not change at all, then I will break this off quickly.

SlowPoke, I'm not really sure what advice you are hoping for in this regard, but I'll offer you my take for what it is worth......

Don't have sex with her, if you dont want a relationship with her! Or if you do, just know you are going to be in for a real stalker relationship. If you are confident that ultimately you and her can never work long term, then I would suggest avoiding going any further. Even if you told her that it would just be one-night, she would likely agree, and then get overly emotionally involved instantly and her advances will just become even stonger and more abbrasive. Believe me, I know it's hard, but you might want to leave it in the pants this time.