[Resta Um]

Resta Um, while I am more and more coming over to your side on this one, I haven't quite gotten to the point where I can agree with an absolute "no way it can happen". You may very well be correct, but unfortunetly I think I have a bit more time in the gauntlet before I can completely agree. Time of course will tell all.

In some matters one has to realize by his own mistakes.

Relationships between ENTPs and Si-dominant types simply can't work. That been said, differently from what occurs in relation to ISTJs, there is a superficial connection between ENTPs and ISFJs. The communication works just enough to make the beggining of a relationship possible. Everything beyond that is a problem.

The ENTP likes the demonstrations of affection and that the ISFJ take care of the annoying mundane tasks of every day life. But soon this affection becomes invasive and smothers the ENTP. The ISFJ can't like the ENTP for what he is, she likes some wicked idealization of the ENTP after her improvements. But the ISFJ wants to change the very core of the ENTP. Things that can't be changed. Things that define what he is. The ISFJ wants the ENTP to be "normal" - more like every one else. She wants him to settle for ordinary life: to marry, have a stable job at the Burocratic Office, Department of Tedium, buy a house, have a pair of kids [preferably a boy and a girl], change cars every two years and, if lucky, go to the movies or "their favorite" restaurant by the weekend, maybe even travel on summer vacations.

The ENTP doesn't like the ISFJ the way she is either. He wanted the ISTJ to be more open-minded, adventurous. That the ISFJ could think by her own, and not through common sense or tradition. That she was more adaptable.

The ENTP knows better that there is no real connection. That the ISFJ can't understand him. That the ISFJ is not intelectually stimulating. The ENTP should stop being stupid and find an INFJ.

[mayhamfx]

Just getting divorced from one after 19 years. I was ready to swallow a gun. She still proves why she's my ex all the time, just can't fathom logic.

[Olmed3011]

I delete my whole comment, Resta Um just spoke like a wise man!

+1

[Feargarden]

The ENTP knows better that there is no real connection. That the ISFJ can't understand him. That the ISFJ is not intelectually stimulating. The ENTP should stop being stupid and find an INFJ.

Thanks again for the input kind sir :-). However, be a little more understanding of your own type before rushing to call the ENTP "stupid" for not just coldly cutting off ties, and walking away. No ENTP is completely willing to just accept the opinions of others, including "experts". We all must walk ourselves through the logic in our own way. I certainly value your opinion, and have taken it into consideration to affect my overall view. To be clear, I am 90% of the way to total agreement, but in my own path, I need to at least give it one shot before just accepting the opinions of others.

And here is the logical reason.......

To say that we as humans are incapable of overcoming a type difference (or any difference for that matter) through acceptance and attention to the issues, is a grim statement. It implies that we are more machines than sentient beings. To say that it is automatic that ENTP and ISFJs can not relate is to compare it to the fact that when you drop something, gravity will pull it down. Of course the latter rings true, but the difference is that neither the object falling or gravity has a consciousness that could alter the outcome. Maybe I am wrong, but I guess my hope for humanity is that we are not just a set of pre-programmed responses that are impossible to change.

If through intervention however, addicts are able to manage their addictions, and lead prosperous lives. If people who are constantly angry, can learn to take a moment and check their own attitudes, for their own betterment. If someone unable to cope with an event, can learn to then cope. Then I hold a little bit of hope that within the confines of an otherwise positive relationship, we can learn to react differently too. The reason for that sliver of hope is that for all those circumstances, the individual did not change the emotions that were toxic to them in the past, but they learned to react better to them.

What I take from all that is, if shown that we will lose something extremely valuable unless we are more aware of our reactions, we do as humans have the ability to change how we react, even if we cant change how we want to react initially. When the change in reaction is positively reinforced like the addict now maintaining jobs/family/self, or the angry person feeling more love from those around them, or the person unable to cope finding new value in life, then the change in reaction is more easily acceptable. Maybe, just maybe, on the outside chance.....the satisfaction from breaking down a barrier and becoming closer to the one you otherwise love, is an equal positive reinforcement. If presented and seen as a method (not a project or experiment) of bettering the relationship, doesnt that indeed match up with an ISFJ's intrinsic "nurturing" and "guardianship"? Of course to me it is more of a project.

Now, like I said, I am not crazy and believe that an attempted intervention here will likely work, but I still have a slight bit of hope. There are two monster questions that must be answered perfectly before any possible progress could be made, if it is possible at all.

1. Do both parties find the relationship outside of the issues to be extremely valuable to them? If not, then the effort is futile because there is no real motivation to change our reactions.

2. Are both parties able to see how their reactions affect the other person, and do they deem it reasonable that they could consider reacting differently? If either party can not accept that the other has a difference in personality that needs to be addressed differently, or if the change is simply too unreasonable to them, then again the effort is futile. We will not make a change that we don't see as necessary or reasonable.

And I think I totally understand that your point revolves around question number 2. You would likely say that an ISFJ is incapable of being able to see, that paying attention to their reactions in the hopes of bettering a relationship, is beneficial/necessary/reasonable. Likewise, you might say that the requests of the reactions she might ask me to alter, are not going to be possible in my personality, or I will simply not find them to be reasonable. Further, you might argue that while the intervention may work for a short period of time, and may resolve a majority of current issues, it wont be long before additional issues arise in different areas because at the end the base preference problem isnt being resolved, just the reactions........remember I'm 90% there.

God, just writing that out makes me somewhat tired and discouraged......so maybe the ENTP will stop being "stupid" sooner rather than later. I am certainly ready to push the topic to the fore-front and come to a resolution quickly, one way or the other. I'll talk to her today, and we'll see where we sit tomorrow.

I would hate to taint NFL Opening Day though with a break-up, lol :-). Totally unrealted, but yay NFL!

[Feargarden]

That the ISFJ is not intelectually stimulating.

Just because I have never addressed the intellectually stimulating topic.......I don't see a problem here, at least not yet, but this conversation might drive that point home. To date however, I don't find her to be boring intellectually. Is she my equal in logical thinking, no, but I'm not sure if she has to be.

My best friend is my logical equal, and my father is a feisty debater. Both equally love to debate political topics and discuss things on a more complex level. I feel like between my best friend, who I generally agree with, and my father who I couldn't generally disagree with more, I get more than my fill of intellectual conversation satisfaction. With that in mind, I don't necessarily believe that our partners have to be our intellectual equals.

[Mutant Messiah]

If you guys wanna know how an SFJ progress in a relationship, you can just use your SFJ mom (if she is an SFJ) for reference.

In the long term, ISFJ and ENTP relationships can be complicated.

a. ISFJs have little idea of the concept of a "paradigm shift" and anyone who veers away from the norm is automatically considered weird.

b. Everyone who says communication is key in a relationship fails to take into account that not everyone is a good communicator, and ISFJs are one of them. How can you bring the issue of compromise if your partner can't communicate effectively. And even if she can, she has little concept of a different POV.

Granting that ENTPs and ISFJs have Fe as a stronger cognitive function, it works differently for both.
An ENTPs Fe takes into account all the different personalities. It takes into consideration a much diverse microcosm.

an ISFJs Fe is more restrictive, and it only understands interpersonal relationships in the culture in which it was accustomed to.

I'm currently in a seven year relationship with an ISFJ and the effect of personality difference is starting to take some toll. Not that it's not manageable.

An ENTP through time will do measures in his lifestyle to expand his horizon, normally thinking that as long as he can allocate a certain time for his ISFJ girlfriend, things will be ok.

An ISFJ girlfriend, on the other hand, over time, will secretly wish that you give up the things that you're committed to, and hope that you find a more stable job, act normal, etc.

The biggest mistake that can happen here is the NTP giving up the things he like about in the effort to make the relationship work, but then it's not guarantee that he'll be getting the reciprocity that he wants, so it's like making a big sacrifice that doesn't guarantee a good outcome.

The reason why I ask ENTPs here to use your SFJ mom as a reference is because you may grow old with your SFJ significant other, and you's still get that feeling that no matter what you do, things are never enough, and somehow, you need to think of a way to manage the emotional burden of that.

[bigtex1989]

ENTP/ISFJ relationships are massively complicated. On the one hand, you have an ISFJ who expects you to mind read what he/she wants, then gets passive-aggressively upset when you don't. Also, stress reactions are completely opposite. ISFJs tend to move to black and white thinking to solve problems, ENTPs tend to go shades of gray, maybe even 50 of them! XD This can be overly frustrating to both parties. ISFJs also seem to be bigger fans of gender roles. I was always forced to make decisions because I was the man, and I hate making decisions. Especially because there is a right and wrong opinion to them. Even something as trivial as picking a place to eat for dinner became a HUGE ordeal.

Me: "I'm hungry. Do you want to go for dinner or should I have a quick snack and we can go later?"
Her: "If you eat now you won't be hungry so I guess we can go now"
Me: "uh...I'm always hungry! You know that XD but alright. Since you're the less hungry one, where do you want to go"
Her: "I don't care, you pick"
Me: "Umm, what about mexican?"
Her: "Ugh, I guess that's fine"
Me: "If you don't want it, then suggest something else!"
Her: "No, let's go"

And just like that a very unfriendly tone is set for the rest of the night. Half the time my jokes could ease the tension. Another fourth of the time I'd have to gossip about people. The remaining fourth, things escalated out of hand XD

Honestly, I think almost all problems would have been alleviated if 2 things happened.
1. She clearly communicated what she expected or wanted. At least that could start a dialogue.
2. She didn't take what I said personally. I told her I needed some time alone once and she freaked.

Now you might say, but Tex, that looks like you were the perfect boyfriend! That's not true. The reason why I don't put what I could have done better is because those things were never communicated to me.

[Resta Um]

Denial, denial, denial, some weird rationalization that even you can't buy yourself, then finally sanity calls.

Thanks again for the input kind sir :-). However, be a little more understanding of your own type before rushing to call the ENTP "stupid" for not just coldly cutting off ties, and walking away. No ENTP is completely willing to just accept the opinions of others, including "experts". We all must walk ourselves through the logic in our own way. I certainly value your opinion, and have taken it into consideration to affect my overall view. To be clear, I am 90% of the way to total agreement, but in my own path, I need to at least give it one shot before just accepting the opinions of others.

If I gave the impression of calling you, in special, stupid, that was not what I meant. The ENTP-ISFJ relationship is rather a common mistake among ENTP males, even if insisting in one for more than two years and cogitating the possibility of change everything that defines who you are are not.

And here is the logical reason.......

To say that we as humans are incapable of overcoming a type difference (or any difference for that matter) through acceptance and attention to the issues, is a grim statement. It implies that we are more machines than sentient beings. To say that it is automatic that ENTP and ISFJs can not relate is to compare it to the fact that when you drop something, gravity will pull it down. Of course the latter rings true, but the difference is that neither the object falling or gravity has a consciousness that could alter the outcome. Maybe I am wrong, but I guess my hope for humanity is that we are not just a set of pre-programmed responses that are impossible to change.

You want so bad to believe that everything is possible in regards to persons that you almost sounded like a NF. The ENTP is indeed the most idealistic of the rationals.

If through intervention however, addicts are able to manage their addictions, and lead prosperous lives. If people who are constantly angry, can learn to take a moment and check their own attitudes, for their own betterment. If someone unable to cope with an event, can learn to then cope. Then I hold a little bit of hope that within the confines of an otherwise positive relationship, we can learn to react differently too. The reason for that sliver of hope is that for all those circumstances, the individual did not change the emotions that were toxic to them in the past, but they learned to react better to them.

Why are you comparing being an ENTP to being an addict, implying there's something ineherently wrong with being an ENTP?

What I take from all that is, if shown that we will lose something extremely valuable unless we are more aware of our reactions, we do as humans have the ability to change how we react, even if we cant change how we want to react initially. When the change in reaction is positively reinforced like the addict now maintaining jobs/family/self, or the angry person feeling more love from those around them, or the person unable to cope finding new value in life, then the change in reaction is more easily acceptable. Maybe, just maybe, on the outside chance.....the satisfaction from breaking down a barrier and becoming closer to the one you otherwise love, is an equal positive reinforcement. If presented and seen as a method (not a project or experiment) of bettering the relationship, doesnt that indeed match up with an ISFJ's intrinsic "nurturing" and "guardianship"? Of course to me it is more of a project.

If you choose that path, you'll find yourself living as another person. And not even an interesting one at that.

Would you rather choose to abandon who you are over what could be another misperception of love? Here's the thing about relationships: you always think that the current one is the truest one, that all previous ones were nothing compared to this. That, naturally, until you realize that it was simply you bullshiting yourself. Be very careful when lying to yourself.

Now, like I said, I am not crazy and believe that an attempted intervention here will likely work, but I still have a slight bit of hope. There are two monster questions that must be answered perfectly before any possible progress could be made, if it is possible at all.

1. Do both parties find the relationship outside of the issues to be extremely valuable to them? If not, then the effort is futile because there is no real motivation to change our reactions.

2. Are both parties able to see how their reactions affect the other person, and do they deem it reasonable that they could consider reacting differently? If either party can not accept that the other has a difference in personality that needs to be addressed differently, or if the change is simply too unreasonable to them, then again the effort is futile. We will not make a change that we don't see as necessary or reasonable.

And I think I totally understand that your point revolves around question number 2. You would likely say that an ISFJ is incapable of being able to see, that paying attention to their reactions in the hopes of bettering a relationship, is beneficial/necessary/reasonable. Likewise, you might say that the requests of the reactions she might ask me to alter, are not going to be possible in my personality, or I will simply not find them to be reasonable. Further, you might argue that while the intervention may work for a short period of time, and may resolve a majority of current issues, it wont be long before additional issues arise in different areas because at the end the base preference problem isnt being resolved, just the reactions........remember I'm 90% there.

I actually argued against number one aswell. But regarding the second point, the main thing is: why would you want to change something that is not wrong and is the very core of your being? Why would both of you change who you are instead of simply finding other persons? Like more suitable persons.

Just because I have never addressed the intellectually stimulating topic.......I don't see a problem here, at least not yet, but this conversation might drive that point home. To date however, I don't find her to be boring intellectually. Is she my equal in logical thinking, no, but I'm not sure if she has to be.

Time will take care of that. Add several years living together and that will certainly become a problem.

And man, think carefully, your whole mentality not minding to sacrifice your personality could cost a lot more than a relationship.

[Olmed3011]

Resta Um: many true words spoken.

Feargarden: I played the isfj game for 6 years. I think all your Fe, rationalization and analysis are symptoms.

The isfj has a way of turning rational thinking against you and then stand firm. You will have to make a decision for yourself and not wait for her "to come around" because most probably she wont..

[LadyLiberty]

I feel trapped and like the real me is an unwelcome guest in someone else's life. There are so many things I want to do with my life, but I won't be able to as long as I'm with him. He stays home when he's not at work and wants me to stay at home and watch TV with him. Home has become like a prison for me! He's not at all ambitious, so I'm the primary wage earner, but he also wants me to fill the traditional female roles of homemaker and caregiver. I've lost all respect for him and see him more as a dependent than a husband.

I've studied his personality type and have made a strong effort to understand him and his needs. However, when I give him information about our personality types so that he can better understand our relationship, he refuses to read it. If I try to talk to him about things I'd like to do, he whines about it and takes it personally and there's usually a passive-aggressive payback resulting from the conversation.

We're entering counseling this month, but I had to practically trick him into going, since he assumes that things are OK between us because we're still together and in his mind, we always will be. Mentally and emotionally, I left this relationship long ago. When my physical presence is finally gone too, he will be devastated and I fear he'll never recover. I already feel SO guilty about that...