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ENTJ's and Religion

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This is a discussion on ENTJ's and Religion within the ENTJ Forum - The Executives forums, part of the NT's Temperament Forum- The Intellects category; Of course I am religious, I am a Christian. I was not always this way, and had a nominal religious ...

  1. #31
    ENTJ - The Executives

    Of course I am religious, I am a Christian. I was not always this way, and had a nominal religious up brining. Yet it is irreversibly so that I have seen God's guiding hands in my life, I do not know if such experiences and apparent signs are expected with everyone, but to deny it would be ludicrous. As of recently I have only been more solidifying my faith, I feel it is not even much of a choice at this point. It is the same as acknowleding that the sky is blue.

    Even before my true embrace, i was baffled by atheism and the apprant rational based worldviews asserted by many. There are many things with little ration in this world, it is the stuff of the life, there is emotion, to apply a whole rational view on everything makes no sense. Many of our values are irrational and placed in dumb wants and desires, to suddenly exempt this in life when you think about meaning/spiritiuality/religion, is silly. Religion is separate from science, never to be crossed. Science deals with only the measurable, immerusalbility does not mean inexistant. Its foolish to think otherwis.

    We live in easy, materially comforting times. We have no faced true hardships, and in that light I too, many are inexperienced. I would embrace those who try to convert you, good things will follow. I should consider taking it myself.


  2. #32
    ENTJ - The Executives

    ENTJs have Fi as the 5th suggestive function. It means we subconsciously enjoy receiving information in this function without ever feeling overwhelmed.

    Fi is the complementary function to Te. It has to do with morals, love. Feeling on a personal level. Its why ENTJ villains in movies are always heads of gangs (Jessie James, 3:10 to Yuma, Mad Max). Or follow some righteous cause like protecting mothers/babies (Shoot Em Up). Our Te function is our leading and primary function, but our reason for exercising Te is to fulfill Fi. We want to be moral, we do this by shaping the world around us. Hence why ENTJ Generals in the army.

    Like our Dualities ISFJ dilligently exercise their Fi to make something happen (Te). ENTJs makes things happen, in order for everything to be "Right" (Fi). A common theme for ENTJs is their X person close to them is suffering, or wants something, and is generally doing what is "right" in their eyes. A typical ENTJ response is to go on a long quest whether it be to hunt down a criminal, get someone elected president, build an orphanage, use psyonic powers to manipulate an empire with mechas and take over the world so that it unites against a villain, even if the villain has to be them, even though they aren't a villain and just acting it. Other activities include building their own empire, whether financial, military or otherwise. Most ENTJs will slow down once they have a family, which may take longer than usual, not in terms of age but in terms of being prepared. ENTJs cannot stand to see those nearby hurting because of them. So they'll have a house, car and at least 1 college fund paid off before proposing somewhere in their early 20s.

    What does this have to do with religion? Religion is a perfect "duality" in that it teaches morals as well as taking care of our other weak subconscious function, Se. Religion tells you whats right (Fi) and what to do (Se). Which is what converters and atheists do not understand. You cannot attack an ENTJ's religion, because they are not defending what may be factual errors in their religion (Ti: ENTJ's bastard function), they are defending their subconscience's life support system. Attacking someones religion is like attacking their dual partner, and ENTJs are very protective of their partners, duals or otherwise. Because of the Ti arguments with INTJs over religious matters is like pulling teeth. ENTJs hate Ti because it not so much contradicts our Te, but rather mocks it. INTJs would need to be shown how their current entire body of knowledge fits perfectly well into the religion. While their quasi INTPs cannot explain what or why they believe because their Ni shows them things which they cannot translate into reality (Ni stronger than Te). While ENTJs have Ni as a second function, meaning its less powerful, so the "vision"(Ni) isn't as clear, but they are better at retelling the parts that they did see(Te).

    Are ENTJ's religious? Well, we can listen to Fi all day long and still want more. We crave to use rule sets that are already in place (T). We have a powerful intuition (Ni in creative, Ne in strongest subconscious) which does not prevent us from seeing, or rather does not prevent us because we cannot see what we believe (N stronger than S). You won't see ENTJs in groups however, because we despise Fe, and only fulfill it insofar as Fi tells us it is the right thing. So we can bare, but just barely, to do the group religious thing if absolutely necessary. Furthermore, ENTJs can stick to a religion no matter how uncomfortable (anti Si) it is because of the people around them telling them it's wrong (anti Fe). If ENTJs aren't too busy taking over the world for the sake of their mama, or raising billions to cure cancer for their cat, they're probably searching for an equivalent reason.

    So for ENTJs looking for a religion with: Morals (Fi) and Commands(Se); No need to meet with a bunch of people you don't like (no Fe); Doing something (Te) for a reason (Fi), that will probably be uncomfortable (anti-Si) which we don't care about because Si is the function we pay attention to least anyway; because the people around you won't understand (anti Fe); to not follow the herd (anti Fe); that is refreshingly new (Ne) but surprisingly old (Ni); yet modern and futuristic (More Ni) simultaneously: keyway.ca

  3. #33
    ENTJ - The Executives

    Quote Originally Posted by Mythikh View Post
    ENTJs have Fi as the 5th suggestive function. It means we subconsciously enjoy receiving information in this function without ever feeling overwhelmed.

    Fi is the complementary function to Te. It has to do with morals, love. Feeling on a personal level. Its why ENTJ villains in movies are always heads of gangs (Jessie James, 3:10 to Yuma, Mad Max). Or follow some righteous cause like protecting mothers/babies (Shoot Em Up). Our Te function is our leading and primary function, but our reason for exercising Te is to fulfill Fi. We want to be moral, we do this by shaping the world around us. Hence why ENTJ Generals in the army.

    Like our Dualities ISFJ dilligently exercise their Fi to make something happen (Te). ENTJs makes things happen, in order for everything to be "Right" (Fi). A common theme for ENTJs is their X person close to them is suffering, or wants something, and is generally doing what is "right" in their eyes. A typical ENTJ response is to go on a long quest whether it be to hunt down a criminal, get someone elected president, build an orphanage, use psyonic powers to manipulate an empire with mechas and take over the world so that it unites against a villain, even if the villain has to be them, even though they aren't a villain and just acting it. Other activities include building their own empire, whether financial, military or otherwise. Most ENTJs will slow down once they have a family, which may take longer than usual, not in terms of age but in terms of being prepared. ENTJs cannot stand to see those nearby hurting because of them. So they'll have a house, car and at least 1 college fund paid off before proposing somewhere in their early 20s.

    What does this have to do with religion? Religion is a perfect "duality" in that it teaches morals as well as taking care of our other weak subconscious function, Se. Religion tells you whats right (Fi) and what to do (Se). Which is what converters and atheists do not understand. You cannot attack an ENTJ's religion, because they are not defending what may be factual errors in their religion (Ti: ENTJ's bastard function), they are defending their subconscience's life support system. Attacking someones religion is like attacking their dual partner, and ENTJs are very protective of their partners, duals or otherwise. Because of the Ti arguments with INTJs over religious matters is like pulling teeth. ENTJs hate Ti because it not so much contradicts our Te, but rather mocks it. INTJs would need to be shown how their current entire body of knowledge fits perfectly well into the religion. While their quasi INTPs cannot explain what or why they believe because their Ni shows them things which they cannot translate into reality (Ni stronger than Te). While ENTJs have Ni as a second function, meaning its less powerful, so the "vision"(Ni) isn't as clear, but they are better at retelling the parts that they did see(Te).

    Are ENTJ's religious? Well, we can listen to Fi all day long and still want more. We crave to use rule sets that are already in place (T). We have a powerful intuition (Ni in creative, Ne in strongest subconscious) which does not prevent us from seeing, or rather does not prevent us because we cannot see what we believe (N stronger than S). You won't see ENTJs in groups however, because we despise Fe, and only fulfill it insofar as Fi tells us it is the right thing. So we can bare, but just barely, to do the group religious thing if absolutely necessary. Furthermore, ENTJs can stick to a religion no matter how uncomfortable (anti Si) it is because of the people around them telling them it's wrong (anti Fe). If ENTJs aren't too busy taking over the world for the sake of their mama, or raising billions to cure cancer for their cat, they're probably searching for an equivalent reason.

    So for ENTJs looking for a religion with: Morals (Fi) and Commands(Se); No need to meet with a bunch of people you don't like (no Fe); Doing something (Te) for a reason (Fi), that will probably be uncomfortable (anti-Si) which we don't care about because Si is the function we pay attention to least anyway; because the people around you won't understand (anti Fe); to not follow the herd (anti Fe); that is refreshingly new (Ne) but surprisingly old (Ni); yet modern and futuristic (More Ni) simultaneously: keyway.ca
    ... wow...just wow.......you wouldnt happen to work in a scintific field would you. Cause you sound like a frecken textbook. Come on man is this really how you talk around your friends. Just talk like yourself man cause what you just said will not stick with anyone who read this.
    Fugazi thanked this post.

  4. #34
    ENTJ - The Executives

    I am an atheist, have been my entire life. Was curious about it early and never saw any indication, to this day, of something that didn't make sense. I would KILL to see something I couldn't explain and will pay good money for it. Still waiting but so far, nada, everything works well, the universe, life, meaning, existence etc.... without the need for a God.

    That said, I LOVE RELIGION and the Judeo/Christian world. I find it aesthetically pleasing, I like the work ethic and societal norms it sets, and realize the part it played in the creation of my country. I also appreciate it's ability to control the masses and keep them fairly level headed. I use my knowledge of religion and genuine love of believers as a tool to improve my communication with and control of these groups. As a well known man in politics and business in my town, my atheism could be trouble, but I use it to convince those that do not like religion that I am receptive to them. My love of religion and my charitable ways towards houses of worship keep me "in their prayers".

    Of course religion can go bad, but seldom is it the actual tenets of a belief system at fault. I blame sociopaths for the problems of religion.

  5. #35
    ENTJ - The Executives

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Gale View Post
    ... wow...just wow.......you wouldnt happen to work in a scintific field would you. Cause you sound like a frecken textbook. Come on man is this really how you talk around your friends. Just talk like yourself man cause what you just said will not stick with anyone who read this.
    Um, speak for yourself. I rather have his informed opinion over your incomprehensible rantings any day.

    Back on topic: how do the rest of you feel about the correlation between the disintegration of organized religion and the decline in personal morals over the last 25 years?
    PixelBrain thanked this post.

  6. #36
    ENTJ - The Executives

    I don't assume there is a correlation. Morals and religion have no connection, so they can not have an effect on each other.

    Morals can't come from god. If they did, they would be subjective morals[the being is irrelevant]; the existence of subjective morals negates objective morals. Therefor god can choose to make anything moral, even killing, because there are no objective rules. If morals are subjective, they have no objective value and must be valued based on the subject[god]. If we believe that morals come from God because God is moral, we must then determine God's morality. The problem is that if God creates morality, it can not then be used to determine God's morality.

    While the theory reveals the circular logic of religious morals, it only applies practically to those who are aware of the logical conflict. I can not assume that society has successfully separated its morals from organized religion, and therefore a correlation between the two is possible. But that is, in fact, the problem.

    If there is a correlation between decline in organized religion and decline in personal morals, it only offers evidence that the two have not been successfully separated from each other. This is, however, different from religion in general; faith may still exist on a personal level while organized religion disintegrates. If this is true, and the only element of religion that is declining is the organization of the group, then perhaps the correlation has nothing to do with religion.

    Could it be a lack of accountability to a social community that is correlated to a decline in personal morals?

    [let me know if I am not making any sense]

  7. #37
    ENTJ - The Executives

    There is no circular logic for me at all. If there is a God, in the form preferred by western religion, then you need to accept the notion that heaven is a real thing. Angels are real, and demons, etc... If you accept the whole ball of wax then morals are given by God.

    Yes, God does decide, he does choose by His subjective rules. If there is a God, then you are indeed His creation, possession, etc.... you do not have the mind capable of knowing Gods will or knowledge and you are not in a position to judge. In other words, you assume that your subjective morality is actually your decision, that it is relevant in the light of God's divine providence. Prove that your mind is one with God and I will consider your argument. Remember, science and logic have nothing to say about religion. It's like applying the laws of physics to poetry, or blues music. You may hear sound waves, but the emergent property of "music" is beyond wave mechanics.

    If you believe in a God, then you accept that we all have the morality God handed down and these pervade society. In other words the things you learn from the people around you and gods gift to all of us.

    If not, then you carry morals that have been passed to you both from experience and your genetic disposition.

    Sounds like one in the same to me.

  8. #38
    ENTJ - The Executives

    A friend of mine was tired of Bible thumpers coming to his door, one day he saw one coming down the street, stripped down to his underwear, grabbed a thing of salt and drew a huge pentagram on the floor, (visible from the door way), went back to the kitchen and grabbed a butcher knife, then held his cat in his arm when he answerd the door for the previous mentioned Bible thumper. Said Bible thumper hasn't been back since.
    PixelBrain and Zinette thanked this post.

  9. #39
    INTP - The Thinkers

    Quote Originally Posted by HiRide View Post
    Morals and religion have no connection, so they can not have an effect on each other.
    The idea is that the previously held religious beliefs taught a particular set of personal morals. And so, if those religious beliefs have gone away, then they would no longer be teaching the previously taught personal morals.

    It's irrelevant whether the morals came from god, or whether she (now confirmed) even exists or not. The personal morals, taught by the religion, were followed because people liked the idea of having a god tell them what they should do.

    There are new personal morals being taught, but they're taught by the socialized academic institution and the mass media, which have become the new religious mouth pieces.

  10. #40
    ENTJ - The Executives

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerick View Post
    The personal morals, taught by the religion, were followed because people liked the idea of having a god tell them what they should do.
    I would suggest an alternative - that people do NOT want someone telling them what to do. I would say that people fear death and it is this fear of death, the need for eternal life and relief from suffering that drive people to a God or Gods.

    The religious among us are not stooges, they are animals (a good thing) and full of fear. Also, a part of our brains is dedicated to religious thought and feeling and this can be seen in an fMRI. Evolution does not build energy consuming body parts just for the heck of it, so as an evolved trait, religion is expressed both morphologically and at the psychological level, fear.

    Since we evolved this way, I see no blame to be passed out to religion for anything, but instead would like to see enough moderation on the side of religion and tolerance on the side of those who don't use that part (the spiritual center) of their brain in the same way.
    Last edited by Rohbiwan; 09-15-2010 at 11:43 AM. Reason: correct a type-o and minor grammer fixes


 
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